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 agnosto wrote:

You're assuming that everyone, or even a majority, of people who play Magic do so at a competitive level on the same token, we can assume that all people who play 40K are competitive players. Since we patently know this to be untrue, the same will hold true for Magic and every other game in the industry.

Draft tournaments run about $25 and even weekly this is still within an impulse buy range for most people (assuming that they want to do this every week). Now go out and find a complete GW game for the same price; something that someone can plunk down $25 and have an evening's entertainment with a group of people. Sure, I can buy a box of miniatures for around $25 but that, in and of itself, isn't going to allow me to play a game for several hours with friends.

Magic is very much pay to win up to a certain level, the same wasn't true of 40k until the more exclusive formations started turning up. You can house rule Magic however you want, but any sort of pick up game using a constructed deck against anybody that takes Magic even remotely seriously you are going to need a decent deck to have anything remotely resembling fun. Excluding formations a normal 1750 or 2000k 40k list are broadly similar in competativeness, I can get by with a cheaper army against your all FW elysian army even though you paid much more per model without a major penality. The same is nowhere near as true for constructed magic as you need the best cards and this is a particular problem for pick up games, competition would be another level on top.

Draft is ~$25 per go, a full day would be at least two drafts, and thats a week on week cost assuming you only want to play once a week, or $300 a year. Granted you'll have some cards that you can sell (if you are quick enough) for a good return. 40k is more upfront for a single 2k army but I shouldn't have to spend more money on it till the next book hits unless I want to.

 Looky Likey wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

You're assuming that everyone, or even a majority, of people who play Magic do so at a competitive level on the same token, we can assume that all people who play 40K are competitive players. Since we patently know this to be untrue, the same will hold true for Magic and every other game in the industry.

Draft tournaments run about $25 and even weekly this is still within an impulse buy range for most people (assuming that they want to do this every week). Now go out and find a complete GW game for the same price; something that someone can plunk down $25 and have an evening's entertainment with a group of people. Sure, I can buy a box of miniatures for around $25 but that, in and of itself, isn't going to allow me to play a game for several hours with friends.

Magic is very much pay to win up to a certain level, the same wasn't true of 40k until the more exclusive formations started turning up. You can house rule Magic however you want, but any sort of pick up game using a constructed deck against anybody that takes Magic even remotely seriously you are going to need a decent deck to have anything remotely resembling fun. Excluding formations a normal 1750 or 2000k 40k list are broadly similar in competativeness, I can get by with a cheaper army against your all FW elysian army even though you paid much more per model without a major penality. The same is nowhere near as true for constructed magic as you need the best cards and this is a particular problem for pick up games, competition would be another level on top.

Draft is ~$25 per go, a full day would be at least two drafts, and thats a week on week cost assuming you only want to play once a week, or $300 a year. Granted you'll have some cards that you can sell (if you are quick enough) for a good return. 40k is more upfront for a single 2k army but I shouldn't have to spend more money on it till the next book hits unless I want to.

I won't argue here but anecdotally I don't see that in my area just like I usually don't see the uber competitive 40K players. I've had just as much fun with a deck of randomness or a pre-built as anything "competitive". People seem to have fun with 40K and AoS and there's no semblance of balance in either of those games, just do the GW thing and talk to your opponent first.

 Looky Likey wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

You're assuming that everyone, or even a majority, of people who play Magic do so at a competitive level on the same token, we can assume that all people who play 40K are competitive players. Since we patently know this to be untrue, the same will hold true for Magic and every other game in the industry.

Draft tournaments run about $25 and even weekly this is still within an impulse buy range for most people (assuming that they want to do this every week). Now go out and find a complete GW game for the same price; something that someone can plunk down $25 and have an evening's entertainment with a group of people. Sure, I can buy a box of miniatures for around $25 but that, in and of itself, isn't going to allow me to play a game for several hours with friends.

Magic is very much pay to win up to a certain level, the same wasn't true of 40k until the more exclusive formations started turning up. You can house rule Magic however you want, but any sort of pick up game using a constructed deck against anybody that takes Magic even remotely seriously you are going to need a decent deck to have anything remotely resembling fun. Excluding formations a normal 1750 or 2000k 40k list are broadly similar in competativeness, I can get by with a cheaper army against your all FW elysian army even though you paid much more per model without a major penality. The same is nowhere near as true for constructed magic as you need the best cards and this is a particular problem for pick up games, competition would be another level on top.

Draft is ~$25 per go, a full day would be at least two drafts, and thats a week on week cost assuming you only want to play once a week, or $300 a year. Granted you'll have some cards that you can sell (if you are quick enough) for a good return. 40k is more upfront for a single 2k army but I shouldn't have to spend more money on it till the next book hits unless I want to.

I don't think anyone is saying Magic can't be just as expensive as 40K, just that it's more of a flexible purchase for your hobby dollars. I knew a bunch of guys that picked up a case of boosters from some close-out sale and spent a few months having fun drafting off it. There's ways for people to mitigate the $$-to-win aspect and have fun with magic.

See, you can play Magic competitively for $500, or play it casually for $50. For 40K, you can play it competitively for $500, or you can play it casually for $500. If I want to go from casual to competitive magic, I add in my $450 to the $50 I already spent. If I want to go from casual to competitive 40K, I could have to add in $500 to the $500 I already spent(admittedly worse case). Let's not even talk about the additional hobby time.

 agnosto wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

You're assuming that everyone, or even a majority, of people who play Magic do so at a competitive level on the same token, we can assume that all people who play 40K are competitive players. Since we patently know this to be untrue, the same will hold true for Magic and every other game in the industry.

Draft tournaments run about $25 and even weekly this is still within an impulse buy range for most people (assuming that they want to do this every week). Now go out and find a complete GW game for the same price; something that someone can plunk down $25 and have an evening's entertainment with a group of people. Sure, I can buy a box of miniatures for around $25 but that, in and of itself, isn't going to allow me to play a game for several hours with friends.

Magic is very much pay to win up to a certain level, the same wasn't true of 40k until the more exclusive formations started turning up. You can house rule Magic however you want, but any sort of pick up game using a constructed deck against anybody that takes Magic even remotely seriously you are going to need a decent deck to have anything remotely resembling fun. Excluding formations a normal 1750 or 2000k 40k list are broadly similar in competativeness, I can get by with a cheaper army against your all FW elysian army even though you paid much more per model without a major penality. The same is nowhere near as true for constructed magic as you need the best cards and this is a particular problem for pick up games, competition would be another level on top.

Draft is ~$25 per go, a full day would be at least two drafts, and thats a week on week cost assuming you only want to play once a week, or $300 a year. Granted you'll have some cards that you can sell (if you are quick enough) for a good return. 40k is more upfront for a single 2k army but I shouldn't have to spend more money on it till the next book hits unless I want to.

I won't argue here but anecdotally I don't see that in my area just like I usually don't see the uber competitive 40K players. I've had just as much fun with a deck of randomness or a pre-built as anything "competitive". People seem to have fun with 40K and AoS and there's no semblance of balance in either of those games, just do the GW thing and talk to your opponent first.

Talking? Oh not that excuse again. I have to talk to my opponent for me to have fun? Why should I do that? It makes no sense, I mean, its not like we play is in any sort of social situation.

/sarcasm

Right...

Back to "GW 2014-15 Financials" please!

Except that isn't the complaint people have about pre game communication and you know it. It's about how much you have to go through before playing to get to a point where you will both enjoy the game compared to other games where you just agree on a points cost and start playing.

Oops, sorry.

 Alpharius wrote:
Right...

Back to "GW 2014-15 Financials" please!

How many people here own GW stock?

 kronk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Right...

Back to "GW 2014-15 Financials" please!

How many people here own GW stock?

Not me. I'm a tech & resource guy. But one of the guys in our play group has a little bit for kicks..

 kronk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Right...

Back to "GW 2014-15 Financials" please!

How many people here own GW stock?

*raises hand sheepishly*

I did, sold, but the last dip brought me back in. It's currently at about $8/share (559 pence) so not an expensive stock in the grand scheme of things.

 Looky Likey wrote:

Draft is ~$25 per go, a full day would be at least two drafts, and thats a week on week cost assuming you only want to play once a week, or $300 a year. Granted you'll have some cards that you can sell (if you are quick enough) for a good return. 40k is more upfront for a single 2k army but I shouldn't have to spend more money on it till the next book hits unless I want to.

Y'all need to check where you're drafting. Around here, it's $10-$15 per draft, unless it's something special like Modern Masters or a Sealed done for a pre-release.

As for owning stock, I might. I don't own any individual stocks, but am part of several mutual funds associated with our 403b retirement investing plan. A couple of those mutual funds are related to international business entities, so there's a chance some GW stock might be in there somewhere.

 agnosto wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Right...

Back to "GW 2014-15 Financials" please!

How many people here own GW stock?

*raises hand sheepishly*

I did, sold, but the last dip brought me back in. It's currently at about $8/share (559 pence) so not an expensive stock in the grand scheme of things.

Damn your eyes, man! You've supposed to be talking the company up, not shredding it with clear, concise analysis.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Right...

Back to "GW 2014-15 Financials" please!

How many people here own GW stock?

*raises hand sheepishly*

I did, sold, but the last dip brought me back in. It's currently at about $8/share (559 pence) so not an expensive stock in the grand scheme of things.

Damn your eyes, man! You've supposed to be talking the company up, not shredding it with clear, concise analysis.

Well, a dividend is a dividend and they stupidly pay above their EPS, I'd be a fool not to take the free money. Citibank gives me like .01 cents a share and OG&E only gives me .05 cents a share, GW rolls out the big dividends.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact that the game costs ~$300 minimum to get into is a definite barrier to entry, and until they address that, Games Workshop will always be a premium product that has no place in toy stores. They say they want to address the fandom at large, but then only make the game affordable to the few. Meanwhile, other games have a cost of entry at a fraction of what Warhammer costs to get into. The old Battleforces used to be a good start, but they should take it a step further and include all of the rules required to run said units.

I have to question where you get that figure.

I can't speak to anything related to WHF (now Sigmar) since that particular fiction simply doesn't appeal to me, but I've played 40k for over a decade. I've never once had price be a 'barrier to entry' for anyone I've introduced the game to.

Now, I'm a business professional and the only monetary obstacle for me is my own reason - I have to justify the cost, not in terms of 'can I afford this' but in terms of 'is this worth the cost'. I make that call every time I do (or more frequently do not) buy something. Many of my peers are also gainfully employed adults and are thus able to reason what is and is not worth their time. I simply can't speak to the market regarding children or persons with no income so if that the demographic you are referring to as suffering from barriers... not sure what to tell you.

I know that last little bit probably just sounded like me patting my own back and perhaps being callous, but I hope to prove a point... Spending $100 (I think it may even be $115 now) to pick up a starter box set is a bargain. Period. I know dozens of folks who picked up the Black Reach box set a few years back for $99... and they got a fully playable SM force, and some Orks. I know some of those people split the cost, playing $50 to get just the SM or the Orks and some people bought one box each and traded - effectively netting DOUBLE number models for $100. Dark Vengeance was just as good - The new BA & Nid box set is better still. And all of them are worth every penny.

It does exactly what it sets out to do - it gets people started. Is it the ultimate fighting force you dreamed up after years of experienced gaming and exposure to all the codices? Of course not, but then - it's not meant for you if that's the case.

And here's where I get to sound REALLY callous:

If you can't afford the $100 to $130 (taxes?) requires to pick up a new hobby, than 40k certainly isn't for you. It's not a 'rich man's game' - I've spend a few thousand dollars on the hobby over the course of a decade... and while that may sound like a lot, it's less than I spend on many other things. All things considered, it's pretty cheap for a hobby.

You into gaming? Go drop $350 on a new Xbox One or $399 on a PS4. Then spend $59 per game and see how quickly that adds up?
Don't fancy consoles? More of a PC type? Try building a solid gaming rig - MINIMUM $500 if you can suffer low end parts. again, not including the games
But maybe you're into something else entirely? Maybe you like sports or working out... ever bought a treadmill? decent ones START at $700 and get into the thousands QUICK.
Still not there? How about music? Maybe you're an artist? lol.... my daughter's violin lessons cost more every year than I've spent on 40k in over a decade.

Sorry for the tirade - it just irks me that people see money as an obstacle. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and I don't commute to work in McLaren - I'm not what you'd call 'rich. But I understand the concept of money....

this whole thread is about GW and their yearly financials... which are poor, there's no doubt. Any other take on the numbers is a spin job. plain and simple. But they're not poor because the price of the models is too high - they're poor because the demographic is drying up. GW failed to market their stuff to the right audience, and they were less than genuine to the loyal folks who stuck with them until now.

If you want the game to be more accessible, stop griping about the price being too high - start griping about the models not being worth the price. GW wants $50 a box now... cool. I expect $50 worth of content from it. I want variety - I want plastic SoB (like almost everyone else) and quality rules that will be around longer than 2 months without being rewritten into a new book. I want that $50 to be something that matters. I'm happy to pay it - like I think most folks are - I just want to know that I'm getting something of value.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact that the game costs ~$300 minimum to get into is a definite barrier to entry, and until they address that, Games Workshop will always be a premium product that has no place in toy stores. They say they want to address the fandom at large, but then only make the game affordable to the few. Meanwhile, other games have a cost of entry at a fraction of what Warhammer costs to get into. The old Battleforces used to be a good start, but they should take it a step further and include all of the rules required to run said units.

Tbf to GW (not that I usually do this), the entry barrier is much lower than that.

-Buy 1x Box of infantry (£25 at most)
-Buy Codex (£35)
-Borrow friend's rulebook (£0)
-Play very small game // Kill Team

First game clocks in at £60 GBP.

-Think about 40k for a while.
-Pick up a battleforce (£100)
-Ebay the A5 rulebook (£30)

Second game clocks in with a running total of £190 GBP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you can buy these things cheaper w/o GW.

 Selym wrote:

-Borrow friend's rulebook (£0)

Sorry, no. You can't just pick and choose things like that.

It's like saying GW isn't really that expensive to start up if you buy off eBay second hand. We're talking RRP and assuming everything is bought.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Selym wrote:

-Borrow friend's rulebook (£0)

Sorry, no. You can't just pick and choose things like that.

It's like saying GW isn't really that expensive to start up if you buy off eBay second hand. We're talking RRP and assuming everything is bought.

£50. It's not what actually happens around here, but that brings you to £110 for a Kill Team game.
Still high, but not as high as previously estimated.

I keep seeing Kill Team bandied around and please forgive me as I am not particularly au fait with the latest edition of 40K but does such a thing exist any more? I thought Kill Team was a 'thing', officially anyway back in 4th/5th edition era, when it had official rules and such in the main rulebook but are there official rules for it still?


Edit - nevermind, found them

They made a newer ruleset for it, IIRC. I seem to recall it being a PDF.

 Selym wrote:
They made a newer ruleset for it, IIRC. I seem to recall it being a PDF.

Yep, found it.

It was released as a dataslate during the christmas advent releases of 6th.

Since 3rd edition, 40K has just not been that great a game when played at less than 1500 points, and it took at least 1000 to get close to the authentic feel of the game. I mean, you could play magic with 10 cards or Warmachine with a single warcaster, but no one does that. Just like no one plays 40K games that small except for maybe their very first demo game.

Using IG as an example in Canuskistan...

Codex (softback or small format) - $50
Rules - $100
Cadian or Catachan Defense Force - $200

So $350 CAD to start reasonably.

American will be cheaper. So saying ~$300 to start 40k is very reasonable.

 Selym wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Selym wrote:

-Borrow friend's rulebook (£0)

Sorry, no. You can't just pick and choose things like that.

It's like saying GW isn't really that expensive to start up if you buy off eBay second hand. We're talking RRP and assuming everything is bought.

£50. It's not what actually happens around here, but that brings you to £110 for a Kill Team game.
Still high, but not as high as previously estimated.

Technically you need to buy the kill team rules too. So that's extra on top (can't recall how much, ~£10?) plus if you're playing a variant of the game that requires a supplement, can you really say you're "playing 40K?"

Okay then. I can't really argue further.

 Blacksails wrote:
Using IG as an example in Canuskistan...

Codex (softback or small format) - $50
Rules - $100
Cadian or Catachan Defense Force - $200

So $350 CAD to start reasonably.

American will be cheaper. So saying ~$300 to start 40k is very reasonable.

This is not a reasonable example. This is not 'entry' into the game.

Step ONE is getting a STARTER box. There is no official rule for this, and obviously a person with the means can take whatever route they wish - you're first purchase could be to buy the $10,000 Ultramarines Chapter set... could...

That's the introduction. Step TWO is later branching off and constructing your own army, from the ground up - codex and individual boxes.

No one is saying that you can't take step two first if you're so inclined, but if you do so, know that you are moving out of the intended order and thus circumventing the provided, lower cost entry options.

There is no entry barrier - unless you opt to start with something other than what is intended.

Oh, I see, so the intention is I buy a bunch of stuff I'm ultimately not going to use?

Because that's cheaper?

By the way, rules aren't really $100. You can easily get the mini softcover for a lot less (free to $30), and it is exactly identical.

And I could go out and find on in my garbage bin FOR FREE!!!!
Is that really the argument?
New players WILL not go for ebay but the most standard approach is to buy the big rulebook.

Overall I think the fanatics are pushing GW further... There was a guy at forgeworld yesterday who spent nearly £2000

So thats like 2 packs of shoulderpads?