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Is this sort of like Pokemon/MtG where you get a kind of power creep with new releases? Like newer stuff kind of makes the older stuff less likely to be used?

Not from what I've seen. Everything is priced appropriately, and new things might have a new ability or something, but it just makes it unique.

I think there may be a slight creep (compare the X-wing to the B-wing), but for thee most art FFG is really good about keeping things level. Based off of the Scum release, I'd actually say that they've been a little cautious ever since the Phantom incident.

The K-Wing is certainly one to watch, as it seems to be a bit undercosted at first glance. However, I also understand that in order to get the most out of it, you have to take a lot of munitions which aren't typically that cheap (although the upgrade card that effectively doubles all munitions is sketchy).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
I think there may be a slight creep (compare the X-wing to the B-wing), but for thee most art FFG is really good about keeping things level. Based off of the Scum release, I'd actually say that they've been a little cautious ever since the Phantom incident.

Okay, I'm still new to the game, but what was the "Phantom incident"? Or are you just referring to the head-scratching stack o' power (4 attack dice, advanced cloaking, nasty pilot abilities) on that ship?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
The K-Wing is certainly one to watch, as it seems to be a bit undercosted at first glance. However, I also understand that in order to get the most out of it, you have to take a lot of munitions which aren't typically that cheap (although the upgrade card that effectively doubles all munitions is sketchy).

Honestly, I think that the K-wing is reasonably priced. Yeah, it's tough, fast, and has a turret, but it has terrible attack, a poor maneuver dial, and SLAM cuts it's firepower further. While it is cheap for the amount of Hull and Turret you are getting, it doesn't pose a huge offensive threat until you start buying ordinance. Because most ordinance is overcosted, extra munitions and the K-wing can be cheap to start and come out to a reasonable cost in the end.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
I think there may be a slight creep (compare the X-wing to the B-wing), but for thee most art FFG is really good about keeping things level. Based off of the Scum release, I'd actually say that they've been a little cautious ever since the Phantom incident.

Okay, I'm still new to the game, but what was the "Phantom incident"? Or are you just referring to the head-scratching stack o' power (4 attack dice, advanced cloaking, nasty pilot abilities) on that ship?

Yes.

The Phantom was initially unbalanced way more than anything else before or since, a high PS Phantom in the hands of a skilled player was nigh invincible.

If there's any power creep it's short lived, because I think the X Wing is the only ship which has emerged as either over or underpowered that hasn't been successfully addressed in later expansions.

I'm happy to live with power swings, because at least FFG have demonstrated the willingness to try and fix them, unlike other certain wargaming companies I could mention.

It's a tricky call, I prefer to think the more modern waves are more accurately costed whereas some of the older ships, such as the X-wing or Tie Adv, got overcosted as even
with lots of internal testing it's not always how the game pans out once in the hands of the players,

One thing to note is that later waves often include cards that are at least half-designed to address the flaws in earlier ships (whether they existed at launch or developed as other ships/upgrades came into the game).

A recent example is the TIE Mk.II engine, which is ostensibly for the upcoming Punisher, but which gives a huge boost to the Defender (and it even has a Defender on the artwork for the card, so it's a clear statement from FFG that the Defender has an issue right now).

Power Creep usually refers to new products being more powerful than older ones so that players will buy them.

With X-Wing, it's a lot more complicated. The designers don't just make more powerful stuff using the same mechanics. They try to create new mechanics. Sometimes these experiments go a bit crazy out "in the wild," as per Echo + Advanced Cloaking Device. This kind of thing can dramatically shift the meta.

Sometimes a ship was just never that good. The TIE Advanced is a good example of this. It's not that the Interceptor killed people using TIE Advanced or something. Players have been down on it since it came out, correctly noting that it's just too expensive for what it does. So FFG is releasing a fix to tackle that from both ends: making it less expensive and allowing it to do more. Now, this certainly makes the TIE Advanced more powerful but it's not really a matter of Power Creep: it's not just making the ship better for the sake of being more powerful, it's bringing the ship up to being playable.

Power Creep is a blunt tool: yes it tempts customers to buy new things but it also invalidates their older purchases. FFG is a lot more clever. They tempt you with purchases that make your existing toys more fun to play while making new ships that increase the number of playable lists.

Not sure about power creep. While new ships and new pilots (abilities) can make Wedge or Howlrunner seem like old news, the new weapons, droids, EPTs, Mods, etc can be backfitted on older platforms to breathe new life into what was an "also ran" ship. Why take 6 Z-95s when 7 TIEs are more survivable (3 green vs 2)...until you put Feedback Array on all those ships.
The new bombs coming out...right after they gave Y-Wings a Bomb Loadout...and you've added expanded munitions to the mix. With the Y-Wing being able to survive most initial attacks he makes a great platform to drop these new presents onto the battlefield.
Blunt was usually relegated to shooting an assault missile into a TIE Swarm (forcing the swarm player to split into 2 mini swarms until Blunt was killed) IF you ever saw him. But with the new XX-23 the nets are on fire with Blunt using this new missile to give free target locks to any number of different alfa strike builds.
And we have seen FFG add new pilots to old ships (Aces pack) that breathes new (and different) life into an older ship. Nor has FFG been adverse to "upgrading" ships into fewer points (Chardaan for A-Wings).
As long as FFG maintains this format, they should have no problems keeping older wave ships viable.

Now, the day we see a 10 shield, 10 hull, PS10, EPT, Advanced Cloak, Primary Turret, 3 attack, 3 defense (uncloaked) with Focus, Evade, Boost, and barrel roll on a small based ship...yeah; that's some power creep.

The newer waves have been pretty good about keeping everything useful and not overly power. That's a product of FFG understanding their own game a bit better after years of competitive play.

The bigger issue is that there are still a lot dogs from earlier waves - things like the Knave Squadron E-Wings and ordinance upgrade cards. FFG has been really good about "patching" the game, so hopefully they can equalize the power levels over time with creative upgrade cards.

When E-Wings first came out, people seemed to have no use for any of them. At least Corran's rep has (dramatically) improved. It's hard to imagine Knave Sqn will ever get fixed, however, barring a card that specifically lowers the price of low PS pilots ... somehow limited to extremely expensive ships.

Agreed. Quite often newer stuff is better than older stuff but it's rarely a straight trade-off.

The Khiraxz is essentially the Scum version of the X-wing, and on first pass it's just better.

But, it has several weaknesses - no speed 1 straight, for example, and no access to astromechs. Plus, the X-wing's named pilots have some of the best abilities in the game. I'd bet on Luke Skywalker over Talonbane Cobra, despite the latter in theory being a better, more expensive pilot


Equally, FFG are very good at including 'fixes' - as noted Twin Ion Engines MkII are very much an upgrade for the TIE Defender. Most ships that are recognised as weak get upgrades which suit them well - with the Imperial Raider providing the TIE Advanced with its upgrade card, I can't think of any ship (not necessarily pilot, but ship) which isn't at least usable in a serious game.

Ye, I don't think there has been power creep as such. Some things have been better, some worse. FFG have tried to fix things.

My only issue is they way they go about fixing things. To get a fix, or some of the useful cards, you have to buy a ship that you may not want. In the case of the Tie Advanced, a £70 ship...

I wish FFG would release upgrade cards as packs on their own.

[quote=I wish FFG would release upgrade cards as packs on their own.

locarno24 wrote:
The Khiraxz is essentially the Scum version of the X-wing, and on first pass it's just better.

But, it has several weaknesses - no speed 1 straight, for example, and no access to astromechs. Plus, the X-wing's named pilots have some of the best abilities in the game. I'd bet on Luke Skywalker over Talonbane Cobra, despite the latter in theory being a better, more expensive pilot

I don't agree that the Kihraxz's dial is worse, it's just different. Lack of a 1 straight is definitely a weakness, but it also has hard 1 turns, and more overall green maneuvers. Astromech droids are cool, but so are illicit upgrades

I take your point on some of the X-Wing pilots being quite good, but their two generic pilots just can't hack it. The PS2 X-Wing should have been 20pts in the first place, so I see the Kihraxz as being the cost that the X-Wing should have been all along.

Plus, the Kihraxz gets a way better second-teir generic with PS5 and an EPT for an extra 3 points. FFG has experimented with those higher-level generics before (Black Squadron, Royal Guard TIEs, Tansarii Point Veteran), and I hope that becomes a standard thing that they do. If the X-Wing had a PS5 Rogue Squadron pilot card with an EPT for 23pts, I'm sure that X-Wings would have remained a staple of rebel squadrons rather than being sidelined. They may yet come out with a title card that does something like that.

All that said... I do think the Kihraxz is quite well balanced, and is not an indication of power creep. I don't expect to see swarms of Kihraxz's winning every tournament.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
If the X-Wing had a PS5 Rogue Squadron pilot card with an EPT for 23pts

Considering the Green Sqn pilot, I think this is not unlikely at 24 pts.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The Khiraxz is essentially the Scum version of the X-wing, and on first pass it's just better.

But, it has several weaknesses - no speed 1 straight, for example, and no access to astromechs. Plus, the X-wing's named pilots have some of the best abilities in the game. I'd bet on Luke Skywalker over Talonbane Cobra, despite the latter in theory being a better, more expensive pilot

I don't agree that the Kihraxz's dial is worse, it's just different. Lack of a 1 straight is definitely a weakness, but it also has hard 1 turns, and more overall green maneuvers. Astromech droids are cool, but so are illicit upgrades

I take your point on some of the X-Wing pilots being quite good, but their two generic pilots just can't hack it. The PS2 X-Wing should have been 20pts in the first place, so I see the Kihraxz as being the cost that the X-Wing should have been all along.

Plus, the Kihraxz gets a way better second-teir generic with PS5 and an EPT for an extra 3 points. FFG has experimented with those higher-level generics before (Black Squadron, Royal Guard TIEs, Tansarii Point Veteran), and I hope that becomes a standard thing that they do. If the X-Wing had a PS5 Rogue Squadron pilot card with an EPT for 23pts, I'm sure that X-Wings would have remained a staple of rebel squadrons rather than being sidelined. They may yet come out with a title card that does something like that.

All that said... I do think the Kihraxz is quite well balanced, and is not an indication of power creep. I don't expect to see swarms of Kihraxz's winning every tournament.

I think, given the worse Hull:Shield ratio, and slightly more limited dial of the kirhaxkxzcvx, it should be maybe 18/19points base, with the X-wing at 20. However, because the Khirxzxxvvx does not have the B-wing peering over its shoulder, and fits into a 5-ship monodominant list, it will still see more use than the X-wing.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Phantom was initially unbalanced way more than anything else before or since, a high PS Phantom in the hands of a skilled player was nigh invincible.

If there's any power creep it's short lived, because I think the X Wing is the only ship which has emerged as either over or underpowered that hasn't been successfully addressed in later expansions.

I'm happy to live with power swings, because at least FFG have demonstrated the willingness to try and fix them, unlike other certain wargaming companies I could mention.

The Phantom was imo a huge mistake by FFG and has changed this entire game for the worse. I consider myself a pretty good X-wing player, and unless I run a turret ship I have to fly absolutely perfectly and roll at least average (i.e. not badly) to beat a badly piloted Phantom - a well piloted Phantom basically needs a turret ship to beat. While I agree that its great that they have introduced new things to balance out the dominance of the Phantom, the issue is that they had to introduce these in the first place and that all future releases have to be balanced along these lines.

The design path they have been forced to go down to keep things balanced has turned this game into a very paper-scissors-rock type game, which is not ideal from a competitive POV. This is partly due to the way tournaments are structured in this game, if I bring rock (turret ship) and come up against paper (swarm) then I will usually lose against a player with comparable skill. This is a problem in single list/single game environments - I can't (and shouldn't need to) rely on someone else bringing turrets to beat Phantoms AND hope I dodge the Phantoms myself in order to win a what is essentially a single elimination event. I'm obviously oversimplifying some things here, but I do feel that Phantoms were the start of the more balancing issues in this game. I still enjoy the game but the biggest thing I would like to see is more design options which blur the lines between swarms, turrets and arc dodgers and make this game less paper-scissors-rock.

Powerguy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Phantom was initially unbalanced way more than anything else before or since, a high PS Phantom in the hands of a skilled player was nigh invincible.

If there's any power creep it's short lived, because I think the X Wing is the only ship which has emerged as either over or underpowered that hasn't been successfully addressed in later expansions.

I'm happy to live with power swings, because at least FFG have demonstrated the willingness to try and fix them, unlike other certain wargaming companies I could mention.

The Phantom was imo a huge mistake by FFG and has changed this entire game for the worse. I consider myself a pretty good X-wing player, and unless I run a turret ship I have to fly absolutely perfectly and roll at least average (i.e. not badly) to beat a badly piloted Phantom - a well piloted Phantom basically needs a turret ship to beat. While I agree that its great that they have introduced new things to balance out the dominance of the Phantom, the issue is that they had to introduce these in the first place and that all future releases have to be balanced along these lines.

The design path they have been forced to go down to keep things balanced has turned this game into a very paper-scissors-rock type game, which is not ideal from a competitive POV. This is partly due to the way tournaments are structured in this game, if I bring rock (turret ship) and come up against paper (swarm) then I will usually lose against a player with comparable skill. This is a problem in single list/single game environments - I can't (and shouldn't need to) rely on someone else bringing turrets to beat Phantoms AND hope I dodge the Phantoms myself in order to win a what is essentially a single elimination event. I'm obviously oversimplifying some things here, but I do feel that Phantoms were the start of the more balancing issues in this game. I still enjoy the game but the biggest thing I would like to see is more design options which blur the lines between swarms, turrets and arc dodgers and make this game less paper-scissors-rock.

Phantoms got tamed a lot after the Errata. Because they have to decloak at the start of the phase, boost/barrel roll/Inertial dampeners can be used to predict stuff. Although that tells you just how bad the phantom was, that they had to errata it.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Powerguy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Phantom was initially unbalanced way more than anything else before or since, a high PS Phantom in the hands of a skilled player was nigh invincible.

If there's any power creep it's short lived, because I think the X Wing is the only ship which has emerged as either over or underpowered that hasn't been successfully addressed in later expansions.

I'm happy to live with power swings, because at least FFG have demonstrated the willingness to try and fix them, unlike other certain wargaming companies I could mention.

The Phantom was imo a huge mistake by FFG and has changed this entire game for the worse. I consider myself a pretty good X-wing player, and unless I run a turret ship I have to fly absolutely perfectly and roll at least average (i.e. not badly) to beat a badly piloted Phantom - a well piloted Phantom basically needs a turret ship to beat. While I agree that its great that they have introduced new things to balance out the dominance of the Phantom, the issue is that they had to introduce these in the first place and that all future releases have to be balanced along these lines.

The design path they have been forced to go down to keep things balanced has turned this game into a very paper-scissors-rock type game, which is not ideal from a competitive POV. This is partly due to the way tournaments are structured in this game, if I bring rock (turret ship) and come up against paper (swarm) then I will usually lose against a player with comparable skill. This is a problem in single list/single game environments - I can't (and shouldn't need to) rely on someone else bringing turrets to beat Phantoms AND hope I dodge the Phantoms myself in order to win a what is essentially a single elimination event. I'm obviously oversimplifying some things here, but I do feel that Phantoms were the start of the more balancing issues in this game. I still enjoy the game but the biggest thing I would like to see is more design options which blur the lines between swarms, turrets and arc dodgers and make this game less paper-scissors-rock.

Phantoms got tamed a lot after the Errata. Because they have to decloak at the start of the phase, boost/barrel roll/Inertial dampeners can be used to predict stuff. Although that tells you just how bad the phantom was, that they had to errata it.

Yeah, the Phantom is good and all, but it's by no means unbalanced. It's squishy, costs a decent penny, and you have to take certain upgrades to make it really stupid, which costs more points. My girlfriend has played against me using them twice now, and has kicked my ass both times, and I like to think I'm typically a slightly more experienced player than her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unfortunately I think I have to agree there is some power creep after all. I just looked at Dengar's pilot card and compared it to Dash Rendar's card. Same actions (so, Dengar is another large ship that can barrel roll, finally), same attack and agility, turret weapons, but Dengar has a white S-loop, more upgrade slots, and better pilot skill, all for 3 points cheaper. Dash has 1 more shield, but oh boy.

Ability, ship upgrade slots etc all get factored in when costing. You don't compare Rookies to Wedge, do ya?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Powerguy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Phantom was initially unbalanced way more than anything else before or since, a high PS Phantom in the hands of a skilled player was nigh invincible.

If there's any power creep it's short lived, because I think the X Wing is the only ship which has emerged as either over or underpowered that hasn't been successfully addressed in later expansions.

I'm happy to live with power swings, because at least FFG have demonstrated the willingness to try and fix them, unlike other certain wargaming companies I could mention.

The Phantom was imo a huge mistake by FFG and has changed this entire game for the worse. I consider myself a pretty good X-wing player, and unless I run a turret ship I have to fly absolutely perfectly and roll at least average (i.e. not badly) to beat a badly piloted Phantom - a well piloted Phantom basically needs a turret ship to beat. While I agree that its great that they have introduced new things to balance out the dominance of the Phantom, the issue is that they had to introduce these in the first place and that all future releases have to be balanced along these lines.

The design path they have been forced to go down to keep things balanced has turned this game into a very paper-scissors-rock type game, which is not ideal from a competitive POV. This is partly due to the way tournaments are structured in this game, if I bring rock (turret ship) and come up against paper (swarm) then I will usually lose against a player with comparable skill. This is a problem in single list/single game environments - I can't (and shouldn't need to) rely on someone else bringing turrets to beat Phantoms AND hope I dodge the Phantoms myself in order to win a what is essentially a single elimination event. I'm obviously oversimplifying some things here, but I do feel that Phantoms were the start of the more balancing issues in this game. I still enjoy the game but the biggest thing I would like to see is more design options which blur the lines between swarms, turrets and arc dodgers and make this game less paper-scissors-rock.

Phantoms got tamed a lot after the Errata. Because they have to decloak at the start of the phase, boost/barrel roll/Inertial dampeners can be used to predict stuff. Although that tells you just how bad the phantom was, that they had to errata it.

Yeah, the Phantom is good and all, but it's by no means unbalanced. It's squishy, costs a decent penny, and you have to take certain upgrades to make it really stupid, which costs more points. My girlfriend has played against me using them twice now, and has kicked my ass both times, and I like to think I'm typically a slightly more experienced player than her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unfortunately I think I have to agree there is some power creep after all. I just looked at Dengar's pilot card and compared it to Dash Rendar's card. Same actions (so, Dengar is another large ship that can barrel roll, finally), same attack and agility, turret weapons, but Dengar has a white S-loop, more upgrade slots, and better pilot skill, all for 3 points cheaper. Dash has 1 more shield, but oh boy.

We have heard that Dengar gets an asymmetric dial. This probably means that he can't turn as fast one direction as the other, and this brings his points down.

Yep. If that dial is asymmetric, he will be a very predictable opponent. That has to be considered.

Luckily FFG DOES consider these things, whereas the abomination that is Wizkids just uses a mathematical formula to churn out their garbage. :-p

Asymmetric dial? Very interesting...

 krodarklorr wrote:
Unfortunately I think I have to agree there is some power creep after all. I just looked at Dengar's pilot card and compared it to Dash Rendar's card. Same actions (so, Dengar is another large ship that can barrel roll, finally), same attack and agility, turret weapons, but Dengar has a white S-loop, more upgrade slots, and better pilot skill, all for 3 points cheaper. Dash has 1 more shield, but oh boy.

Better pilot skill than Dash? Debatable.

Dash's ability is amazing, especially combined with Debris Fields (which you should always bring if you're flying as Dash) and allows you to almost effectively ignore the obstacles in the game, which is a pretty big deal for a large-based ship. Being able to shoot back is definitely nice, but you can only do it once per round and only if your target is in you firing arc so there is an obvious trade off. Dash was also designed to carry a secondary weapon was a main gun, so for 12 points you can give him the Outrider title and a Heavy Laser Cannon; you lose range 1 but your opponent loses the range 3 defense bonus (or spend 9 points you can give him the title and "Mangler" Cannon to close the donut hole).

For 12 points, you can give Dengar the Punishing One title that only ups his attack by one. Yes, he has more upgrade slots, but two of them are torpedoes and let's face it: the cannons in this game are significantly better than the torpedoes so the cannon slot is worth more balance-wise.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Better pilot skill than Dash? Debatable.

I could be wrong, but I think he's referring to Dash being PS7 while Dengar is PS9?

 streamdragon wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Better pilot skill than Dash? Debatable.

I could be wrong, but I think he's referring to Dash being PS7 while Dengar is PS9?

You're probably right.

Doesn't dengar have barrel roll as well? If so, being Ps9 with engine upgrade will make him insanely slippery for a large ship, and still have an Ept for something like gunner or, to be really stupidly fast, PTL

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Doesn't dengar have barrel roll as well? If so, being Ps9 with engine upgrade will make him insanely slippery for a large ship, and still have an Ept for something like gunner or, to be really stupidly fast, PTL

Well, we don't know what his dial is other than the fact that it's asymmetrical. I have a feeling it will be his weakness.