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Sooo, the other night I watched an old Audrey Hepburn movie called "The Nun's Story" (fact: any old movie starring Audrey Hepburn is automatically 80% better) . It's kinda slow, but I found the depiction of Nun life quite fascinating. I couldn't help but compare it to how 40k depicts cloistered orders (i.e.- Sororitas, most Astartes, Eccesiarchy), and come to the conclusion that most BL and 40k authors really have a problem depicting this stuff in a way that's realistic and compelling. In the movie, the novices have to not speak to each other unless absolutely necessary, write every sin (including prideful thoughts and lots of stuff we wouldn't even CONSIDER sins) in a little booklet, make regular public confessions, etc. You really get to see just how tough the life is and the total dedication it requires. At the same time, we can still relate to Hepburn's character and the other nuns. Their very different lifestyle doesn't make them alien.

In 40k fiction, especially with Space Marines, the focus seems to be more about being a soldier. Sure, they say prayers, use religious language to condemn their enemies, and hand out holy smitings by the dozen, but when it comes to the spiritual side of all these zealous religious orders... I dunno, it all seems rather shallow. Probably because the authors are all secular.

Which is why I really think anyone interested in writing 40k stories featuring Space Marines, SoB's, the Ecclesiarchy, or another very religious group, should watch this movie, especially the first 40 minutes. It's not an action packed movie, and at two and half hours long, it takes its time, but there's some really good stuff in there.

What are your thoughts on how 40k authors depict monastic religious life? Would you like to see it done better? Has anyone else seen this movie and had similar thoughts to what I had?

I'd love to see it done better.

I think it's important to remember that an Astartes most holy duty IS killing the enemy

think of them crusading knights, it might be their fortress but it is in land they shouldn't be able to hold and yet often do

As someone with a "professional interest" in religious life. I'd really like it depicted better in 40K though the fact that it is there at all in various forms is one of the things I enjoy about the setting.

The reason The Nun's Story works so well (aside from AH, I agree btw) is that it was autobiography: someone wrote about what they knew and then were involved in the film too. It was also an age when people took religion seriously. The rituals etc shown in Nun's Story are much more complicated than they are today but the film has them spot on whereas nowadays almost every priest you see on TV etc has his vestments on backwards..but I digress.. Some BL and GW authors do their research quite well but none as far as I know are writing autobiography or have that much personal involvement with religious life, instead resorting at times to historical parody. Perhaps they could hire a monastic consultant or at least read some of the genuine source material.

I think the lifestyle of the Sisterhood is pretty well-established, either by direct statement or inference and suggestion. These are women who take religion more seriously than Jesus.

However, "historical parody" is part and parcel of 40K. It's been that way since the very beginning, and continues on in that vein. This is a game of pitch-black gallows humor and relentless, OTT depictions of a sci-fi dystopia. It's supposed to be silly, but oh-so-serious in its silliness.

ETA: It would probably be better to think of Space Marines as the Eastern concept of "monk", rather than as European Jesuit monks. These guys are, after all and first-and-foremost, soldiers. They don't meditate on matters of faith... rather, their matters of faith are synonymous with matters of warfare. They don't worry about the Passion, they focus themselves more on the Fury.

Oh I agree the parody has always been there and can quite enjoy it but it sometimes seems that writers are parodying a parody anyway rather than working from actual history.

I do think Marines do fit within Western rather than Eastern Monastic tradition: the Crusading Orders such as the Templars, Hospitallers etc were a genuine fusion of the monastic and chivalric ideals: real fighting monks. St. Bernard one of the great monastic founders and reformers as well as the lead preacher for the 2nd Crusade, wrote a proper if short rule for them which could apply well to Marines.

Eusebius wrote:
Oh I agree the parody has always been there and can quite enjoy it but it sometimes seems that writers are parodying a parody anyway rather than working from actual history.

I do think Marines do fit within Western rather than Eastern Monastic tradition: the Crusading Orders such as the Templars, Hospitallers etc were a genuine fusion of the monastic and chivalric ideals: real fighting monks. St. Bernard one of the great monastic founders and reformers as well as the lead preacher for the 2nd Crusade, wrote a proper if short rule for them which could apply well to Marines.

The writers are parodying the image of the Middle Ages that exists in British (Protestant of course) pop culture, Monty Python and so on. Hence the witch hunts, which didn't exist in the Middle Ages but were actually Renaissance, Ignorance and fanatcism of the clergy. Etc,

If GW were a Spanish company, it would be different.

I don't think GW is so much parodying Python as it is drawing on a common historical/social stereotype in order to project the Grimdark.

The Inquisition has less to do with Python's portrayal (itself a humorous parody) than it does with the real Inquisition and it's new world Puritan descendants. It definitely invokes the horror of Inquisitions (there were many) and witch hunts, not the humor. If the IOM is a parody it's definitely not a funny one.

Then GW turns around and gives you a plausible reason to accept that genocidal horror as a necessity. Nay, as heroic. After all, there really ARE demons, mutants and heretics out there and they really DO want to eat your soul. And the Inquisition really is the frayed red line holding back the darkness. So Exterminatus really IS necessary in extreme cases.

Kinda scary if you think of it.

As far as religion goes, I agree with the OP and Eusebius. I'd like to see religion better represented, not only for cloistered orders but for commoners. After all, we're talking about a universe where faith is literally, demonstrably effective. Miracles happen. Prayer creates a direct and obvious cause and effect impact on reality. Saints are real (though not always as depicted by the Ecclesiarchy).

In parts of the fluff Ecclesiarchy missions undertake humane and charitable works. Many if not most of the faithful donate to the Ecclesiarchy willingly, and are both uplifted and proud of the grandeur, pomp and magnificent edifices and ceremonies it provides. It is undeniably the glue that holds the Imperium together. It is the only one of the major Administrata that directly touches each citizen on a daily basis. Like all human institutions it's horribly flawed, but it's not wholly insidious and evil. In fact, it provides services society desperately needs, material, emotional and spiritual.

Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the Heresy era was that the Emperor insisted on suppressing the desire for the divine in his son Lorgar. Humans are spiritual beings as much as they are physical ones. Most humans (at least those who do not worship themselves) need faith in something greater. They need causes. They need an image of perfection, an exemplar which they can adore and aspire to. Why? Because humans are corrupt, selfish, weak and fearful. Many humans are victims who need some hope of divine justice. Almost all humans are self-interested, and many are willing to enrich themselves at the expense of others. (Internet Trolls are a perfect example of this).

Any purely secular belief system becomes corrupt even faster than one that places faith (and judgement) in the hands of the divine... precisely because it IS only human, with no eternal values or universal frame of reference. Witness Communism. It was an atheistic philosophy based on providing for every member of society based on need; it asked all members of society to give their time and talent based on their own ability. It failed almost immediately because ruthless, greedy and ambitious men exploited the philosophy, building a system (Marxism) based on Communist philosophy which met their needs at the expense of the masses it claimed to help/protect. Communism cannot and will not change human nature precisely because it starts by assuming humans are willing to support a philosophy of 'from each according to his abilities, to each according to his need'. It was doomed to fail from it's inception, a la Orwell's Animal Farm.

In the real world religions typically go through cycles of sophistication and fundamentalism, the fundamentalism phase being a return to the core beliefs and values of the faith. The Imperium has gone through the same cycles - witness the Ecclesiarchial reforms of Sebastian Thor. Very much like what might have happened if, say, a Martin Luther had risen to control the Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation.

This post is pretty much just a political and social commentary on religion as a social institution as it relates to the 40k universe. It's entirely separate from my personal belief and faith (my bias is that of a reasonably devout Christian from a liturgical denomination). It's also entirely separate from any eternal, celestial truths a religion may claim or actually encompass.

Yes, I'd like to see 40k do more with the faith than the Aquila, some pious oaths and hardcore militant convents. I'd also prefer a nuanced approach that shows the good and the bad, the bureaucracy and genuine, honest faith, the compassionate missionary and the uncompromising zealot. I'd like to see characters struggling to discern the humane tenets of their faith from the faceless bureaucracy and firey hate-rhetoric. I think a novel about a person of real faith struggling with and possibly rising through the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy would be as interesting as Gaunt or Cain or Eisenhorn or Varro.

My two cents.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I don't think GW is so much parodying Python as it is drawing on a common historical/social stereotype in order to project the Grimdark.

The Inquisition has less to do with Python's portrayal (itself a humorous parody) than it does with the real Inquisition and it's new world Puritan descendants. It definitely invokes the horror of Inquisitions (there were many) and witch hunts, not the humor. If the IOM is a parody it's definitely not a funny one.

Then GW turns around and gives you a plausible reason to accept that genocidal horror as a necessity. Nay, as heroic. After all, there really ARE demons, mutants and heretics out there and they really DO want to eat your soul. And the Inquisition really is the frayed red line holding back the darkness. So Exterminatus really IS necessary in extreme cases.

Kinda scary if you think of it.

As far as religion goes, I agree with the OP and Eusebius. I'd like to see religion better represented, not only for cloistered orders but for commoners. After all, we're talking about a universe where faith is literally, demonstrably effective. Miracles happen. Prayer creates a direct and obvious cause and effect impact on reality. Saints are real (though not always as depicted by the Ecclesiarchy).

In parts of the fluff Ecclesiarchy missions undertake humane and charitable works. Many if not most of the faithful donate to the Ecclesiarchy willingly, and are both uplifted and proud of the grandeur, pomp and magnificent edifices and ceremonies it provides. It is undeniably the glue that holds the Imperium together. It is the only one of the major Administrata that directly touches each citizen on a daily basis. Like all human institutions it's horribly flawed, but it's not wholly insidious and evil. In fact, it provides services society desperately needs, material, emotional and spiritual.

Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the Heresy era was that the Emperor insisted on suppressing the desire for the divine in his son Lorgar. Humans are spiritual beings as much as they are physical ones. Most humans (at least those who do not worship themselves) need faith in something greater. They need causes. They need an image of perfection, an exemplar which they can adore and aspire to. Why? Because humans are corrupt, selfish, weak and fearful. Many humans are victims who need some hope of divine justice. Almost all humans are self-interested, and many are willing to enrich themselves at the expense of others. (Internet Trolls are a perfect example of this).

Any purely secular belief system becomes corrupt even faster than one that places faith (and judgement) in the hands of the divine... precisely because it IS only human, with no eternal values or universal frame of reference. Witness Communism. It was an atheistic philosophy based on providing for every member of society based on need; it asked all members of society to give their time and talent based on their own ability. It failed almost immediately because ruthless, greedy and ambitious men exploited the philosophy, building a system (Marxism) based on Communist philosophy which met their needs at the expense of the masses it claimed to help/protect. Communism cannot and will not change human nature precisely because it starts by assuming humans are willing to support a philosophy of 'from each according to his abilities, to each according to his need'. It was doomed to fail from it's inception, a la Orwell's Animal Farm.

In the real world religions typically go through cycles of sophistication and fundamentalism, the fundamentalism phase being a return to the core beliefs and values of the faith. The Imperium has gone through the same cycles - witness the Ecclesiarchial reforms of Sebastian Thor. Very much like what might have happened if, say, a Martin Luther had risen to control the Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation.

This post is pretty much just a political and social commentary on religion as a social institution as it relates to the 40k universe. It's entirely separate from my personal belief and faith (my bias is that of a reasonably devout Christian from a liturgical denomination). It's also entirely separate from any eternal, celestial truths a religion may claim or actually encompass.

Yes, I'd like to see 40k do more with the faith than the Aquila, some pious oaths and hardcore militant convents. I'd also prefer a nuanced approach that shows the good and the bad, the bureaucracy and genuine, honest faith, the compassionate missionary and the uncompromising zealot. I'd like to see characters struggling to discern the humane tenets of their faith from the faceless bureaucracy and firey hate-rhetoric. I think a novel about a person of real faith struggling with and possibly rising through the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy would be as interesting as Gaunt or Cain or Eisenhorn or Varro.

My two cents.

Very nicely put. +1

The very necessity of the evil of the Imperium is the source of the parody... or rather, satire.

I don't mean that they are parodying Python, but using the British pop culture image of the Middle Ages that you see in, among other things. Holy Grail (and many other sources).


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Witch burning and so forth.