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My IG don't have a lot of choice, thats all they are issued with..
Ahem..
TLoS is rubbish, but very simple to write a rule about, so it gets used, its passable (as long as you accept the various issues around warping realty you end up with within the rules) if you have the concept of 'area' terrain, FoW has this about right (though for 15mm so a bit lacking in variation) - e.g. a 'wood' and a lone tree are different, a lone tree can provide concealment to a single team or vehicle (maybe). A wood is an area which blocks LoSthrough it, and allows LoS into or out of it up to 6", while concealing units within it. more than 6" in and you can only be seen by another unit within 6" (i.e. within the wood). Works and is simple.
Easy to scale as well, its not in FoW but a 'dense' wood could have 4" LoS, a sparse one 9" and so on, easy.
Similar mechanic used for smoke screens, with a 16" LoS range.
Biggest bugbear has to be terrain out of scale with the models, followed closely by GW bolting this on to the current games without bothering to adapt the rest of the game, or the terrain models they sell. Irritaed me no end with the FAQ for "Cities of Death" basically saying to bin the workable terrain rules they had, and replace them with TLoS...
privateer4hire wrote: I also enjoy making my opponents carry multiple-sized cylinders with them and forcing them to replace their minis with said cylinders during game play.
Really helps the immersion
You must play against some really irritating people if you're doing it enough to break immersion. It's no less impactful than placing rulers on the table to see ranges or rolling dice to simulate actions.
It's extremely rare in Infinity that you need to get out a silhouette marker, generally when someone really, really needs to stretch the bounds of what would be seen by the model to make a shot. In general, it's just as easy in any other game to draw LoS.
I was employing hyperbole. I wouldn't play a game that required what I consider 'cylinder nonsense' in the first place.
The closest thing I would want to use in a game for LOS is maybe a laser pointer and even that's borderline overboard.
I'd have agreed, up until about ten years ago, when I ran into TFG.
He wanted to use the original Eldar Avatar, because it was easier to hide.
He had his Edar Dreadnoughts modeled so they were crouching - but insisted that they could stand up to fire. Ditto for his Edar Guardians.
After that... cylinders it is!
(On the flip side - in my KoW group there is a dwarf player that has his rangers modeled so that they are planting a banner on top of a mountain. He has never once tried to insist that units could hide behind the convenient moving mountain....)
The Auld Grump
Funny. That Ranger mountain thing has been noted as a cause behind Mantic adding height stat to KoW, wasn't it?
As to the guy with the Eldar, that isn't an issue with TLOS. That's an issue with opponent choice.
privateer4hire wrote: I also enjoy making my opponents carry multiple-sized cylinders with them and forcing them to replace their minis with said cylinders during game play.
Really helps the immersion
I've played Warmachine and Malifaux for five years, and that hasn't happened once. Just measure from the base edges to the height for listed miniatures of that base size (standard measurements in WM, inches equal to the Height stat in Malifaux), done. I'm getting the feeling you haven't played that sort of system, and you're fishing for silly exaggerations to try and dismiss them out of hand.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
privateer4hire wrote: I also enjoy making my opponents carry multiple-sized cylinders with them and forcing them to replace their minis with said cylinders during game play.
Really helps the immersion
I've played Warmachine and Malifaux for five years, and that hasn't happened once. Just measure from the base edges to the height for listed miniatures of that base size (standard measurements in WM, inches equal to the Height stat in Malifaux), done. I'm getting the feeling you haven't played that sort of system, and you're fishing for silly exaggerations to try and dismiss them out of hand.
Same here. Better yet, assign height to terrain like the Malifaux rules actually say.
I'm not a fan of TLOS mainly because it breaks immersion for me - looking from the "model's eye view" is quite nifty the first few times until you deduce that every crouching model would have to be permanently crouching, every prone model must be crawling everywhere on its belly, etc...not to mention the MFA potential.
I would much rather take a bit of time to learn things like height/footprint categories for each unit if it meant less time stooping over tables and squinting through gaps in terrain. This doesn't have to involve vast amounts of bookkeeping...if you had an army book or unit card the height value could be printed right next to the unit.
Driven away from WH40K by rules bloat and the expense of keeping up, now interested in smaller model count games and anything with nifty mechanics.
privateer4hire wrote: I also enjoy making my opponents carry multiple-sized cylinders with them and forcing them to replace their minis with said cylinders during game play.
Really helps the immersion
I've played Warmachine and Malifaux for five years, and that hasn't happened once. Just measure from the base edges to the height for listed miniatures of that base size (standard measurements in WM, inches equal to the Height stat in Malifaux), done. I'm getting the feeling you haven't played that sort of system, and you're fishing for silly exaggerations to try and dismiss them out of hand.
Same here. Better yet, assign height to terrain like the Malifaux rules actually say.
Another +1.
Yeah, I really don't think there are any mechanical disadvantages to the system. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but find it hard to believe anyone who's spent time with a decent abstracted LOS system thinks it's worse than model pose affecting mechanics.
The main disadvantages of abstracted lof terrain is complexity of rules for complex situations, more rules for the same thing, no need for a 3D terrain and of course modeling for advantage becomes making terrain for advantage.
You cannot avoid the "for advantage" someone wanting to use an exploit will find and abuse the exploit.
privateer4hire wrote: I also enjoy making my opponents carry multiple-sized cylinders with them and forcing them to replace their minis with said cylinders during game play.
Really helps the immersion
You must play against some really irritating people if you're doing it enough to break immersion. It's no less impactful than placing rulers on the table to see ranges or rolling dice to simulate actions.
It's extremely rare in Infinity that you need to get out a silhouette marker, generally when someone really, really needs to stretch the bounds of what would be seen by the model to make a shot. In general, it's just as easy in any other game to draw LoS.
I was employing hyperbole. I wouldn't play a game that required what I consider 'cylinder nonsense' in the first place.
The closest thing I would want to use in a game for LOS is maybe a laser pointer and even that's borderline overboard.
I'd have agreed, up until about ten years ago, when I ran into TFG.
He wanted to use the original Eldar Avatar, because it was easier to hide.
He had his Edar Dreadnoughts modeled so they were crouching - but insisted that they could stand up to fire. Ditto for his Edar Guardians.
After that... cylinders it is!
(On the flip side - in my KoW group there is a dwarf player that has his rangers modeled so that they are planting a banner on top of a mountain. He has never once tried to insist that units could hide behind the convenient moving mountain....)
The Auld Grump
Funny. That Ranger mountain thing has been noted as a cause behind Mantic adding height stat to KoW, wasn't it?
As to the guy with the Eldar, that isn't an issue with TLOS. That's an issue with opponent choice.
Not that specific example, as far as I know - but dioramic bases in general were.
And, no - it is the rule that allows that kind of opponent - both TLoSand that player should be gotten rid of. (Not an either/or situation at all, at all.)
He can point to the rule in the book - and he is right - going by GW rules.
That is what makes the TFG the TFG.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
privateer4hire wrote: I also enjoy making my opponents carry multiple-sized cylinders with them and forcing them to replace their minis with said cylinders during game play.
Really helps the immersion
I've played Warmachine and Malifaux for five years, and that hasn't happened once. Just measure from the base edges to the height for listed miniatures of that base size (standard measurements in WM, inches equal to the Height stat in Malifaux), done. I'm getting the feeling you haven't played that sort of system, and you're fishing for silly exaggerations to try and dismiss them out of hand.
You're getting the wrong feeling. I played WarMachine for years and didn't run into issues that I can recall from the LOS (although seems like you could do some crazy stuff by putting smaller based stuff in proximity of larger based models IIRC.
My point is that the crouched guy model has a lower profile so he's harder to hit, true. He also, under TLOS, has a much harder time getting off many shots because terrain blocks him where a standing figure could see over things. I see them as a trade off.
Wanna take an entire army of hobbits? Fine. They won't be able to be seen as easily as humans in TLOS. They also will have to move further into the open to get good shots. In essence, a balancing occurs if you want to try to abuse model poses.
Unless he doesn't want to shoot and only needs to avoid being seen, not get LOS himself. CC specialists for example. And on the other side, a model that has good defences and a big gun doesn't care if he is seen but wants good shots so model extra height for best views.
For some of my characters I have alternates where they're standing/laying prone or crouching. In my turn I use the standing ones and then swap in the crouching ones during the other guy's turn. Makes sense from a battling perspective.
TrollSlayerThorak'Khun'Na wrote: For some of my characters I have alternates where they're standing/laying prone or crouching. In my turn I use the standing ones and then swap in the crouching ones during the other guy's turn. Makes sense from a battling perspective.
I... can't believe that flies. Wow. Seriously. Am I missing the joke?
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: Unless he doesn't want to shoot and only needs to avoid being seen, not get LOS himself. CC specialists for example. And on the other side, a model that has good defences and a big gun doesn't care if he is seen but wants good shots so model extra height for best views.
Good points. Of course, that player might be a little less likely to field such a force if his opponent pool started handing out the same medicine (short cc guys and Hulk Buster Ironmen with Nova Cannons)
TLOS can work, but I don't really see it as being any more immersive, and it only really works well for games where everything is somewhat similarly posed.
It breaks down a bit when you have things like machine gunners who are (realistically) kneeling or prone while the rest of the squad is standing, so your most powerful gun ends up being the only one that can't get line of sight while the rest of your squad dies around you Or things like regular non-armoured infantry standing behind a waist high wall almost completely exposed when in reality they should be crouching behind the wall for cover.
I don't think "modelling for advantage" is a huge problem really, at least not that I've observed. It's more just the stupidity and immersion breakingness of your models doing completely illogical things.
I also don't love the idea of silhouettes really.
I think the best thing is probably some sort of compromise between TLOS for open areas with intervening terrain and using area of effect terrain where the player can choose what level of cover the unit is trying to take (maybe using counters or something to indicate it).
So, for example, a unit that is 2" away from a waist high wall could choose to take full cover and hide behind the wall (making them hard to hit but also making it hard for them to hit anything) otherwise they could choose to take up partial cover behind the wall (making them not quite so hard to hit, but still harder than open ground, but their own firing is not reduced). You place a counter next to the unit to indicate what they're doing.
You could obviously make the system more elaborate, but I think it's a good compromise where you don't get a dumbarse sniper standing behind a wall that they should be kneeling behind it, or a machine gunner who's busy laying prone against a shrub while his lesser armed standing squad mates all get gunned down.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/25 01:48:54
privateer4hire wrote: I also enjoy making my opponents carry multiple-sized cylinders with them and forcing them to replace their minis with said cylinders during game play.
Really helps the immersion
I've played Warmachine and Malifaux for five years, and that hasn't happened once. Just measure from the base edges to the height for listed miniatures of that base size (standard measurements in WM, inches equal to the Height stat in Malifaux), done. I'm getting the feeling you haven't played that sort of system, and you're fishing for silly exaggerations to try and dismiss them out of hand.
You're getting the wrong feeling. I played WarMachine for years and didn't run into issues that I can recall from the LOS (although seems like you could do some crazy stuff by putting smaller based stuff in proximity of larger based models IIRC.
Such as what?
My point is that the crouched guy model has a lower profile so he's harder to hit, true. He also, under TLOS, has a much harder time getting off many shots because terrain blocks him where a standing figure could see over things. I see them as a trade off.
Wanna take an entire army of hobbits? Fine. They won't be able to be seen as easily as humans in TLOS. They also will have to move further into the open to get good shots. In essence, a balancing occurs if you want to try to abuse model poses.
"Argh! A giant alien is charging towards us! Bob, shoot it!"
"Sorry, guys, I'm crouching behind this 4ft wall, and I can't see it."
"So stand up and shoot it!"
"Can't....bend....knees!"
"Bob, you suck--argh!" (sounds of being devoured)
Still, at least they have it easy compared to the commander. Modelled standing on a big rock because that looked impressive, he apparently carries that rock around the battlefield with him and will always stand on it, even when he'd much rather be behind cover.
The idea that I'm commanding of an army of manneqins who always glide across the battlefield locked into the same pose is quite funny, true, , but it also kind of guts the argument that TLoS is more immersive.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
The idea that I'm commanding of an army of manneqins who always glide across the battlefield locked into the same pose is quite funny, true.
If this is really an issue then the best thing to do is avoid those models, or convert them to more standard poses.
It may or may not be a problem, but I'm explaining why it negates the "immersion" argument for TLoS, by leading naturally to some very strange and unrealistic conclusions.
Seems that if I want to use cool models or large scenic bases for my commanders, the best thing to do is to use a system that understands that model poses are abstractions of "this guy is here" rather than frozen positions the soldiers literally hold for the entire battle, regardless of circumstances.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Sounds like Terminator has borrowed a lot of Malifaux regarding size/LOS, which makes me like Malifaux, as Terminator has the best LOS rules I've ever read.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
For me, true line of sight is terrible, plain and simple. And it's terrible for several reasons. Firstly, sometimes its difficult to get down to the model's point of view when there are a bunch of other stuff on the table like terrain and other models. Then theres the problem of models having dynamic poses or models that are crouching or prone. And, unless there are teeny tiny cameras attached to your models eyes you can never get a truely accurate reading of what he can see. TLoS is just setting the game up for arguments. Cylindrical volume all the way for me. It makes the game run smoother. It makes the game run faster and it makes the rules tighter.
Assume there are no pieces of blocking terrain, and give a modifier for each piece of terrain or unit in the direct line between the unit and its target.
Solid terrain like hills and bunkers can have a larger modifier than soft terrain like vegetation and other units.
spiralingcadaver wrote: So, like, guy on the other side of a mountain, in a bunker with no windows, would still be able to get hit by a rifle?
Sure, just roll a 20 on a six sided die.
Been ages since I played, but I am sure there is a game system or two that can actually do that. Or maybe a 8,9 or 10 on a six sided dice. Can't remember if it can reach 20 or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/29 00:18:49
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
TheWaspinator wrote: Why do so many rules writers seem to think that this is a good concept to use? It sounds simple until you actually try to determine it during gameplay, when it then devolves into arguments about whether you can see the edge of a figure's helmet around that tree or something equally absurd.
To many blind and/or cheating players out there. TLOS is good on paper, but terrible in practice. Even with red laser beams you can paint a target plainly, and people will still look at you like they were just told aliens exist. Then, you ask them to check LOS themselves, and now their red laser beam is all over the terrain, on the ceiling, in the parking lot, confused as to how to aim the thing properly. Dumpster TLOS for all future games, please. Take note, Kickstarterers out there!
Ayn Rand "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality"
Or things like regular non-armoured infantry standing behind a waist high wall almost completely exposed when in reality they should be crouching behind the wall for cover.
