I feel I owe some of you an explanation

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**the_scotsman**

Makumba wrote:
So there was no printed version, I can't use printed rules where I play.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Codex-Inquisition-eBook-Edition

This is the inquisition codex, should you wish to purchase it. If your store doesn't accept this 100% official rule set purchased from the GW web store to which it is an exclusive, i don't know what you can do.

**Runic**

MarsNZ wrote:
Why should I have to take allies to stand a chance?

Then don't take allies if you don't want to. If you struggle without them, then what are you expecting really?

Generally speaking, not directed at the guy above:

You either use allies or other methods listed and start doing better, or you don't and you'll probably still keep doing badly. Alternatively, you can just quit, the third option.

That's all there is really. Refusing from options and then being angry gets you absolutely nowhere. It's the most useless choice of all.

**MWHistorian**

SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Play another game. Made by a company that doesn't do "Flavor of the Month!" style releases where everyone else languishes with a gakky codex for years at a time.

Try Infinity, get off GWs carousel of screw.

I second this. Other game companies don't constantly screw you over to sell more models.
See what else is being played around there. If nothing, (and this isn't easy at all) try to build up a community. Get two forces of a game and give people demo games.
But unfortunately, where one lives is often a big factor in what one plays.

But seriously, try Infinity. It's amazing.

**Konrax**

I'm more a bolt action fan tbh, I like 40k because of the depth of lore and characters. The game is pretty good but also has some touchy spots on it.

With a new CEO gw might shape up a bit better, keep in mind only a couple people have ever run this company, and the latest guy has barely been in the seat long enough to enact any real change to the 40k platform.

**Kanluwen**

MWHistorian wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Play another game. Made by a company that doesn't do "Flavor of the Month!" style releases where everyone else languishes with a gakky codex for years at a time.

Try Infinity, get off GWs carousel of screw.

I second this. Other game companies don't constantly screw you over to sell more models.
See what else is being played around there. If nothing, (and this isn't easy at all) try to build up a community. Get two forces of a game and give people demo games.
But unfortunately, where one lives is often a big factor in what one plays.

But seriously, try Infinity. It's amazing.

As amazing as Infinity can be, it's also currently in growing pains--and more than that, they severely pissed off a large number of dedicated fans/customers who feel like they misled friends/fellow gamers with baldfaced misinformation that CB put out prior to the N3 release.

**Quanar**

Konrax wrote:
Just take them as an allied force and you only need 1 troop.

Azrael is now a Lord Of War, meaning you can't take him in an Allied Detachment, which is why Crash said you'd need a CAD (plus a HQ and 2 Troops tax). Forewarning from an Inquisitor is just so much cheaper.

**Crimson Heretic**

master of ordinance wrote:
Right, this has been needed for a little while now.

Many of you know me, Master of Ordinance, just another Dakkanought whom stomps around these forums. Recently though I feel that I have been turning a little sour in my posts, especially here on the 40K section and especially towards Space Marines. Now obviously this has been causing a little strife and I guess that some of you are wondering why I am getting so bitter about several factions and about my own codex. Well, here it is:

As you all know I am a die hard Imperial Guard player. I love my Guard and the general aspect of them, the notion that against all the odds in a universe inhabited by genetically enginieered tank plate wearing superhumans, bioweapons, ancient terminator egyptians, Demons, super advanced cowfish and other nasties these regular men and women clad in simple armour and armed only with a cheap rifle, a few grenades and balls of pure steel volunteer to go out and fight for their people, their homes, their empire. The volunteer to be hurled through the warp to some back hole planet that noone has ever heard of before and fight and die for the emperor. The Guard are metal as hell.

But recently things have been changing. Being an Imperial Guard player has never really been easy. You have had to cope with the fact that most basic Infantry weapons will ignore your armour, the fact that your troops are not the best in the whole galaxy and the vulnerabilities to assault. There was also the issue of seeing the gunline army status removed entirely with the introduction of a certain new race (totally not looking at you Tau). But a good Guard player with a strong grasp of tactics could fight on and, with a bit of luck, stand a good chance of winning against other armies. The use of tanks to blitz the enemy off objectives and then sending Infantry up to claim them, combined arms tactics and the use of many amazing strategies that baffled opponents would carry you to victory.
But then things changed. 5th became 6th and then very rapidly 7th. In a single codex GW killed the tactical depth in 40K and the factors in winning a game went from 10% army list and 90% tactics too 50% army list, 50% tactics. Things where bad, but we in the Guard where able to hold on and keep going to an extent. Sure, we where playing with 5th edition codex but things could have been worse...... Spoke too soon.
The 6th edition Imperial Guard codex dropped and things went from bad to fubar overnight. Suddenly we had lost many useable units, being reduced down to a grand total of (arguably - some of these are situational/not too good) 6 selections that where actually worth the inordinate amount of points we where paying for them. Our tanks lost the Lumbering Behemoth rule and with it half of their firepower. Units which needed price drops where left standing as they where or even worse given a price hike/nerf. The outcome was bleak but worse was yet to come.
The Necrons codex dropped and with it began the (in)famous line of the 'Decurion style' codex. Swiftly following this came the Eldar and Space Marines with Adeptus Mechanicus trailing in their wake. Now winning a game is 80% army choice and 20% tactics. We in the Guard department where left in the dust. The Tau had taken our gunline, the idiot whom wrote our codex had taken our manoeuvrability and the Space Marines had taken our tank. we have nothing, seriously NOTHING. Playing the Imperial Guard went from being a challenge to a 'how long can I hold out before he feths me over'. Victories went from difficult to nigh on impossible. The learning curve for new IG players actually breached that of the Cryx in Warmachine in elevation.

Now that sounds bad right, but surely at a large and diverse club like the one that I attend there should be some whom play Orcs or Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard for me to get a fun game against? *bitter laughter*
Nope. There WAS another two Imperial Guard players. There WAS an Ork player. There WAS a Dark Eldar player. WAS.
As of the last count I am the only active Imperial Guard player in my club. There is one Sister of Battle player and he attends so infrequently that he may as well not be there. Now guess what all of the others play? We have:

More Space Marine players than can be counted

Several Dark Angels players

A Grey Knight player

A couple of Tyranid players

A few Chaos players... Whom now play vanilla Space Marines

A couple of Tyranid players

A member of the club management whom owns an entire Knight household with Adeptus Mechanicus and Skitarii supporting elements (the army looks epic though and is amazingly well painted) and is still expanding on it

A Spacewolf player

A Tau player

Of these my regular opponents are:

The Grey Knight player

A Ravenwing player

A Deathwing player

A certain Space Marine player whom loves to bring Primarchs (legal and homebrewed) to friendly games and has a habit of whining about my tanks being overpowered and broken

Now, can people see where my perspective is coming from? When I drop on to these forums and see a Space Marine player complaining about how his 3+ save is useless or how his tactical's are over priced I want to grab him by the collar and shake him whilst screaming "You think you have it bad? YOU THINK YOU HAVE IT BAD?! TRY PLAYING THE GUARD DAMNIT, AT LEAST YOU GET YOUR SAVES VS MOST SMALL ARMS FIRE!!!! When I see these threads where people want to buff the Rhino (an already amazingly good APC which wish my Imperial Guard had access too) still further I want to weep. When I see threads about Tau players wanting MOAR fancy shooty I just stare. Where I see said Tau players wanting to take even more tank and artillery I actually get really pissed, its like they want to strip everything that the Guard have and make it theirs. My guys have NOTHING which can compete with these codex's. Nothing that can counter these powerful units. Nothing which equals a formation.
Hell, even Tyranids are tough as they can bring Monstrous Creatures and, well, we know how THAT ends when placed against the Imperial Guard.
I have players whom have never even played using the Imperial Guard telling me that my Infantry are amazing and that my orders are broken despite the fact that it takes, on average, 200 lasgun shots to put down your regular vanilla 10 man Tactical squad or equivalent. I have a certain Space Marine players complaining that Imperial Guard orders are overpowered and should only be useable once per game because FRFSRF over two turns from a Veteran section with a Heavy bolter killed 5 Devestators. I have Marine and Marine derivative players, telling me that I rely too much on my tanks. What else am I supposed to rely on? Infantry? Like hell that ever works.
Its the same on here, we have Marine players wanting a Rhino to have more survivability than a Leman Russ on a Rhino. We have them wanting AV14 on their Predators. Predators which are already cheaper and faster than Leman Russ (The Russ can only move 6" a turn). We have Tau players wanting even more shooty stuff and artillery support.
Oh, and for a kicker we have the Space Marine players, and the players from the other meta codex's coming along and telling us that the Imperial Guard dont need formations that give us free stuff and dont need buffs to this and that.

You see, from my perspective the game stinks right now. Everything that my army does another army does better, and half the time those armies players want more.
In all honesty I would love to take a break from the game but I cant. Why not? Because 40K is the only game that is really played right now at my club. The Warmachine scene died off so my Cryx sit unused. The Darkage scene was, sadly, stillborn owning to some supply issues. I occasionally see Fantasy but the only real players right now are doing a campaign based off the End Times. AoS is.... Terrible. Infinity MIGHT be a way out but right now I am gauging the future of the scene before I invest in another game and I am trying to get the Bolt Action scene kickstarted.

Sorry for the large wall of text. I hope that this explains, at the very least, some of my bitterness.

i feel your pain, i had a guard army for quite awhile for similiar reasons that you chose them. But after getting pounded into the ground day in and day out i just said screw it and moved on. I tryed every angle to try and some how squeeze a win here and there, but they just can't hold their own with the newer codexes unless they take allys..which in my opinion the ally matrix should be there to add fluffy stuff or a new fun factor to your list..not be the crutch that hopefully hobbles you into a win. I enjoy a challenge my current lists are CSM and none flyrant tyranids(got about 200 gaunts lol) so i guess i'm still in a similar boat as far as the struggle to hold up against marine power mongering ETC

**Martel732**

IG players: What are these marine lists running to squish you? Are they list tailoring? Insist on playing against a non-tailored list. I consider drop pod marine lists very suspicious, as there are many lists they back fire against. (Mech lists)

I'm actually a really good traitor as I've gotten really good at killing other marine lists. The training started back in 5th because of all the accursed Space Puppies.

**crazyK**

SGTPozy wrote:
You can take your boring gunline playsyle from the Tau but to be honest I have no idea why anyone would want to play that way :L

Do all the Tau players you encounter run pure gunlines? I am asking because I keep seeing comments like this in the forums. I personally don't play my army that way.

**Martel732**

I suspect most do crazyK because the Devilfish is considerably overcosted.

**crazyK**

Martel732 wrote:
I suspect most do crazyK because the Devilfish is considerably overcosted.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but there are plenty of deepstriking and outflanking options that are very fun to play.

**Martel732**

crazyK wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I suspect most do crazyK because the Devilfish is considerably overcosted.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but there are plenty of deepstriking and outflanking options that are very fun to play.

It applies to most lists that putting units in reserve is often very undesirable. I've won many games with BA that I shouldn't have been able to because my opponent tried to DS/outflank instead of lining up and taking care of business from turn 1.

**the_scotsman**

I'd guess the usual stuff that people at an average level of play have trouble with: Death Stars, alphastrikes, and spam.

When you play at "average hobby game club" level of competitiveness, I.E. Just random stuff getting chosen, the game becomes a whole lot less balanced, purely because of what players of the respective factions tend to instinctively like.

In my experience at least, the most common thing for an Eldar player to think is "wicked cool" is wraith stuff. For tau? Suits, obviously. Space marines? Toss up between loads of tanks and pumped up characters. Necrons will gravitate towards a shambling foot horde.

And the stuff people are apt to like about things like Orks (big hordes of melee focused dudes!) or chaos (yeah CC power armor!) or guard (random tanks and artillery and squads of guys!) are likely to get clobbered because, while they're DOABLE at a more competitive level, they're more reliant on knowing where your tricks are.

Guard are for absolutely sure a weaker codex at the moment, totally stuffed with units you couldn't use in a million years. To go toe to toe with the average tossed-together lists of the top tier factions. Were at an odd point of rough balance where any army in some fashion can see top tables, with great players playing min maxed lists but for the average joe balance is much more of a minefield. Which is precisely why the attitude of "I shouldn't have to do X or Y or Z to compete" has GOT to go first of all.

You have zero control over your opponents lists. Ideally, you should strive for close games-they're the most fun after all. If your winrate is lower than 50%, anything that lets you play the models you enjoy more enjoyably can and should be used. And it should be absolutely done in the way that takes the least effort/monetary cost from you. Whether that's buckling down and doing your homework on what the best build for you to use is, do that. Whether that's as simple as saying one model is something else? (Personally my Shafers' Ghost and Sly Marbo models are seeing new life as Vindicare and Culexus Assassins) Then that's great. Play around. Make a change. Don't be afraid to admit you're doing things wrong and that you can learn.

**Martel732**

Space Puppy alpha strike lists from 5th were almost completely neutered by IG mech lists. I suspect the same would be true in 7th, however vehicles are so much weaker that the temptation to not use Chimeras is great. Even still, clever bubble wrapping with cheap squads puts alpha strikers in an awkward position.

Ideally, death stars would be fed minimal squads with no gear turn after turn. This is hard to do, though, but IG has a better chance of minimizing the damage than a marine army. The marines of course might be able to kill it with grav cents, but lists like BA can do neither.

Spam is completely dependent on what is being spammed. IG are actually in a pretty good place vs scatterbike spam, which is the #1 spam unit right now I'd say.

**the_scotsman**

True, but in "average joe 40k" people tend not to do well against stuff like that. When faced with say a strong Death Star, the usual response is to not do anything different from normal, lose, and then be mad about it. That's why things like Riptide spam, which is laughable at a tourney-level, is likely to make you a really hated player at a normal level, because a riptide seems like this unkillable death machine and-WHAT? You have THREE? You know how it goes.

Big stuff without an obvious answer = broken in average joe 40k.

**Thyhadras**

Martel, the skyhammer is garbage unless you are paying a points level that allows you to actually kit them out to do damage. As such if you look at the competitive scene there are one or two builds of marines that are doing well...

Furthermore, to the OP it sounds like you are not having a problem with the game, but you are instead having a problem with not being able to expand your army the way you want (i.e. air support and heavy artillery) and in turn you are playing in a gaming club that the players have a simple goal of winning.

If you want to have more fun start talking with the people you are playing against and explain to them you are not having fun and build some scenarios that make it more enjoyable... (me and my friend just played a game with the promethium pipes and I used a tech marine as my only HQ) The game was tons of fun (he plays orks, and honestly Marines do not beat a slightly competitive ork list becasue of what they can bring to the table)...

Every army has weaknesses and every army has strengths... you have a ton of marines you are playing with... set down 6 russ' on your side and watch them quiver in fear.

**Hawky**

I know your pain. I'm the only non-marine player in my group and yes, I play the Guard (THE GUARD!

)

I usualy lose, because Marines are just and simply superior, but often I manage to beat them with just few remaining guys on the table and sometimes I win the game with my head held high.
Thanks to them I started to hate Marines. My greatest joy is to blast them with Battlecannons, roast them with plasmas and tear them with hotshots. They are brute warriors and I use brute force to counter them. I'm literally trying to eradicate evil with evil. And sometimes it works.

But remember, my brother in arms. Without the Guard, the Imperium of Man would cease to exist. We aren't the strongest, but we are irreplaceable.

For the Emperor!

**the_scotsman**

If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?

If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.

**DaPino**

Mantorok wrote:
Have you considered getting a new army?
Like eldar or necrons?

The moment you have to use the buy another army-card, you know the guy is right, and I think he is. I read his post and I recognize his feelings because I play CSM and I am in a very similar situation.
Just about everyone does just about everything better.

**Thyhadras**

DaPino have you actually looked at how bad space marines are outside of the bikes and pods? Seriously, all of our armies have problems... for example... my nids are TERRIBLE because I do not want to buy the models to make them competitive. However, you will never hear me complain about them... (unless you make a comment about lictors not attacking when they appear from the foliage).

**Hawky**

the_scotsman wrote:
If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?

If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.

Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.

**master of ordinance**

Hawky wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?

If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.

Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.

Exactly. Even fully geared out for MEQ killing my Guardsmen just can not put the damage downrange fast enough or hard enough. I had the GK player tell me I relied too much on my tanks. I pointed at the all Infantry game that I was playing and told him "This is what happens when I rely on my Infantry". And even then I struggle. Cover stops blasts from wiping units and Marines will survive. It is really, really difficult for me to have a hope in hells chance to win.

**Thyhadras**

Hawky, what does your average list consist of... perhaps the answer is taking some of us very veteran marine players and letting us help you build a list to crush them... also, are they running mostly bikes and pods or something different...

I can tell you not to be upset, but I would rather help you build a list out of what you have... so many have said to do so many things... but I did not see someone really give a good break down of how to win with what you have...

remember that Marines suck, and for the points we have one of the worst troop choices in the game, just have to capitalize on our weaknesses.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Master of ordinance, the same goes for you, let me know what you have available and what you see against you and I will help you build a list that may fare better against your opponents.

**Rihgu**

master of ordinance wrote:
Hawky wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?

If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.

Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.

Exactly. Even fully geared out for MEQ killing my Guardsmen just can not put the damage downrange fast enough or hard enough. I had the GK player tell me I relied too much on my tanks. I pointed at the all Infantry game that I was playing and told him "This is what happens when I rely on my Infantry". And even then I struggle. Cover stops blasts from wiping units and Marines will survive. It is really, really difficult for me to have a hope in hells chance to win.

Can you tell me what that Grey Knight player runs? I have really struggled against IG since I started in 5th edition. This guy seems to know what's up, so if I could see his list I may be able to improve my own.

**Dozer Blades**

IG was probably the most broken army for 5th edition... akin to what Tau was in 6th edition. There will always be some top tier armies.

**master of ordinance**

Paladins. 9 of them with a lord in there, some of the not-tacticals... Purifiers I think, and a Dreadknight.

Honestly I have no idea about anything apart from the Dreadknight and the damn Paladins. Sanctuary, or whatever that massive Invun buff is, on them and BAM! Invunra unit.

**Martel732**

master of ordinance wrote:
Hawky wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
If every other player in your group plays marines, surely you must have an enormous advantage given that you can just stack your list against marines chock full of Battlecannons, Paskishers, executioners and meltavets, right?

If your opponents all play the same army, with very few exceptions that should make them hugely easy to beat.

Well, one is regular marine player, second Space Wolf player and third Chaos player, but yes I have anti-marine list. But even with that, Guardsmen is still a Guardsmen. Squishy dude with a lasgun. And we play only low-point games, where every casualty hurts.

Exactly. Even fully geared out for MEQ killing my Guardsmen just can not put the damage downrange fast enough or hard enough. I had the GK player tell me I relied too much on my tanks. I pointed at the all Infantry game that I was playing and told him "This is what happens when I rely on my Infantry". And even then I struggle. Cover stops blasts from wiping units and Marines will survive. It is really, really difficult for me to have a hope in hells chance to win.

You are doing something very wrong, then. If you tailor for marines, you should bury them.

**DarthSpader**

I feel your pain. I started playing in 3rd. My first army was dark eldar. I STILL remember the list. And have most of the models although most need repairs. I loved when my Archeon and incibi would charge a unit, wipe it out and consolidate into the next one. I loved the fact I could turbo boost my bikes across the board to draw fire and they would survive. Wych units kicked butt in combat and the game was fun, varied and tatical. Then 4th, 5th and so on. 12 years of no codex. Things progressively got worse. Still being a fan of the game I picked up orks. Made a speed freaks list that was pretty kick butt. And again they got nerfed neglected and outdated. Undaunted I moved to tau and then necrons... Untill about 2 years ago. At this point the price for a new army was getting out of control and i just could not keep up. Stopped playing. I've recently got back in - rebuilding an imperial fist army because that's what I have the most functional bits for. Trading off old beloved stuff for new kits or sprues to bring the fists up to fighting form.

Long story short - I get where you come from. But in today's age changing armies is not an option unless your filthy rich or have the ability to trade. Not good prospects either way. One way I've found - I formed a "council" with my friends and we changed the game. House ruled codex and main book alike to make it enjoyable for everyone. Maybe something like that could work for you?

**Rihgu**

master of ordinance wrote:
Paladins. 9 of them with a lord in there, some of the not-tacticals... Purifiers I think, and a Dreadknight.

Honestly I have no idea about anything apart from the Dreadknight and the damn Paladins. Sanctuary, or whatever that massive Invun buff is, on them and BAM! Invunra unit.

Hmm. That's pretty similar to my 5th edition list. I doubt he's taking Purifiers, though. They don't have Deep Strike and Psycannons are severely nerfed. They also can't be troops any more so unless he's going unbound, they're probably a Strike Squad.

My Dreadknight never made it past a turn within effective range with all the lascannons, punisher shots, and plasma guns my opponent could lay downfield.

1 Demolisher is going to do a number on Paladins, especially with a few squads of Plasma vets nearby to clean up after words. With Sanctuary up, they've got a 4+ invulnerable save, which means 50% of your shots aren't going through... good thing you can lay down a huge number of shots! Demolisher is ignoring the FnP I assume they've got from the Apothecary, but it will block even more of your plasma shots. If they're using Sanctuary and only have 1 Lord, that means they're using a Librarian or Grand Master and not Kaldor Draigo, so just be glad you don't have to face down a 2++ save on an Eternal Warrior!

Also, because he's only taking 9 Paladins, he's only got 2 psycannons. Which means his fire power is half as much as it could be. Exploit that!

Remember: Even the battle cannon means instant death (and no FnP!) against Paladins. Everybody rolls 1s eventually.

**Hawky**

Thyhadras wrote:

Spoiler:

Hawky, what does your average list consist of... perhaps the answer is taking some of us very veteran marine players and letting us help you build a list to crush them... also, are they running mostly bikes and pods or something different...

I can tell you not to be upset, but I would rather help you build a list out of what you have... so many have said to do so many things... but I did not see someone really give a good break down of how to win with what you have...

remember that Marines suck, and for the points we have one of the worst troop choices in the game, just have to capitalize on our weaknesses.

750pts
CCS /w Carapace armor and Autocannon team

Tempestus Scion squad (10man) /w two Volley Guns

Veterans in Carapace /w two Plasmas and in Chimera /w Pintle Stubber
Veterans in Carapace /w two Plasmas
Veterans /w Camo cloaks and Missile Launcher
(All sergeants have Boltguns)

Naked LRBT

Regular marine usually play Captain /w relic blade in artificer armor, few squads of Tacticals, squad of Stenguards and a squad of Assaults or Vanguards. Sometimes Dreadnought /w Multimelta.
SW plays a Captain in Terminator armor, Grey Hunters in Rhinos and squad or two with devastators /w Missile launchers and Bikers. Sometimes Droppod.
Chaos plays Deepstriking Chaos lord in terminator armour /w 5 more terminators, ton of Regular marines, squad of Cultists and a Defiler.