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LEAVE ELDAR ALONE



Honestly the Stigma tagging of all armies needs to stop.

but it doesn't mean you dont deserve it.

Yeah this thread is definitely beating a dead horse.

"L2P lol" is about as productive as the logical response, which is: If you aren't getting games playing Eldar, then buy a new army.

Auuuuhhhh, dos da poor wittle Eldar player get butthurt because no one wants to play against his god tier list?

Look, insults aside, there is no way in hell I will play against Eldar. I have a bad enough time with Marines and Space Puppies. Dark Angels and Grey Knights. And these armies are considered weaker than the Eldar codex. have seen the Eldar book. I have seen what it contains. I have seen just how much of the D that can be spammed with ease. I have seen just how stupidly under priced it is.

My Guard struggle against Marines. Marines are eaten alive by Eldar. I have no chance against anything like that.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it. It's a stretch for SM or DA players to say that Eldar outclass their codex and the necron book is straight up better. And SM are the vast majority of armies so I don't see how you're not getting games unless everyone in your club runs sisters and dark Eldar or something.

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Mutiquotes! Multiquotes everywhere!

Erik_Morkai wrote:Eldar hate is overblown and getting pretty old.

There are what 3 units that pose a serious problem and nobody can plan around that? Really?

I play Eldar. I win some, I lose some. Never had anyone at the club refuse to play me no matter what list I bring.

I simply think it is sad that people are refusing to step out of their cookie-cutter comfort zone and not trying to think of a way around the problematic units.

The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

Could be worse. When the Eldar codex was released, there were eight ongoing threads hating on the Eldar.

Desubot wrote:LEAVE ELDAR ALONE



Honestly the Stigma tagging of all armies needs to stop.

but it doesn't mean you dont deserve it.

I agree. It's not like Eldar have a monopoly on OP and unbalanced units in 40k. But it doesn't change the fact that Eldar have access to those units.

master of ordinance wrote:Auuuuhhhh, dos da poor wittle Eldar player get butthurt because no one wants to play against his god tier list?

Look, insults aside, there is no way in hell I will play against Eldar. I have a bad enough time with Marines and Space Puppies. Dark Angels and Grey Knights. And these armies are considered weaker than the Eldar codex. have seen the Eldar book. I have seen what it contains. I have seen just how much of the D that can be spammed with ease. I have seen just how stupidly under priced it is.

My Guard struggle against Marines. Marines are eaten alive by Eldar. I have no chance against anything like that.

Guard are definitely on the back foot against Eldar, and if the Eldar player brings all the cheese there's very little Guard can do. But if the Eldar player doesn't go full cheddar, the Guard do stand a chance, though it's still an uphill struggle in most cases.

krodarklorr wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it. It's a stretch for SM or DA players to say that Eldar outclass their codex and the necron book is straight up better. And SM are the vast majority of armies so I don't see how you're not getting games unless everyone in your club runs sisters and dark Eldar or something.

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/misfire-comics-34-bad-to-the-wraithbone.html

I love the Eldar. I find my games against them are some of the most difficult in the game due to how they move. People also seem to like playing against my Eldar, but I think that's because it's 66% Harlequins ;-).

(I own Eldar, Harlequins, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, and pod-less Space Marines)

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

 TheNewBlood wrote:


The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

In the spirit of fair play that is a challenge I would like to discuss.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:


The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

In the spirit of fair play that is a challenge I would like to discuss.

Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines would like a word about dealing with Wraithkinghts, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Bonus points if the solution doesn't involve allies.

Pask Punishers do pretty well against Wraith Knights as long as it fires first, and are pretty much immune to Scatterbikes with careful positioning.

However, it's a very expensive named HQ requiring you to take another buddy in the unit (minimum buy-in around 400 points), you can only take 1, the WK can very easily one-shot it, and Scatterbikes have the maneuverability to get around to the side and do damage.


Not like it really needs to be said, but the problem with Eldar is that their power units are simultaneously amazingly powerful, very durable, and highly maneuverable without the "pay to play" price tag typically associated with units that have the "triple threat" outlined above.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:


The problem is that many armies don't have the means to effectively counter those three OP units.

In the spirit of fair play that is a challenge I would like to discuss.

Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines would like a word about dealing with Wraithkinghts, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Bonus points if the solution doesn't involve allies.

Imperial guard: FW artillery carriage + ignore cover for the scatter bikes or a Moo and ignore cover order works too. lots of dudes for Deep strike denialing Wraith guide d flamer things. Take it down order and lots of las cannons or other goodies against wraith knight (1) (more than 3 is slowed) or all together ignore all of that and take more bodies than there are table space and bore your opponent to death.

Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

What do you reckon Scatterbikes will do to Be'lakor? It's not going to be pretty.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

What do you reckon Scatterbikes will do to Be'lakor? It's not going to be pretty.

He is in the air, and what do you think 4 ap 3 s6 torrent flamers will do to scat bikes?

War Kitten wrote:
I do feel bad for the eldar players who got into the army because of the fluff/aesthetics and who run fluffy lists. The stigma against eldar has gotten so bad that even those who play fun lists can't get a game in because people refuse to play them

I decided to build an Iyanden wraith army once. I thought it was really fluffy and pleasant.

That didn't last long.

Belakor also has a 4+ invuln which can be cheesed with the grimoire. But that involves allies. He also has the shrouded power to help out whichever heldrake is most in danger, or at least make one durable so it's less of a target.

I agree with the OP. This forum could do with a lot less hate all around. Seeing the hate towards faction players makes my brain cringe in a very "reacting to racism" way. Its silly. Its just a game. I cant imagine refusing a game because of the faction someone plays... But if it's nothing but wraithknights and scatterspam i might ask for a list tone-down.

 Konrax wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos just runs a lord of skulls with belakor making him invisible while flying around, and like 4-5 heldrake.

What do you reckon Scatterbikes will do to Be'lakor? It's not going to be pretty.

He is in the air, and what do you think 4 ap 3 s6 torrent flamers will do to scat bikes?

As if Scatterbikes care about snapshots.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Belakor also has a 4+ invuln which can be cheesed with the grimoire. But that involves allies. He also has the shrouded power to help out whichever heldrake is most in danger, or at least make one durable so it's less of a target.

I agree with the OP. This forum could do with a lot less hate all around. Seeing the hate towards faction players makes my brain cringe in a very "reacting to racism" way. Its silly. Its just a game. I cant imagine refusing a game because of the faction someone plays... But if it's nothing but wraithknights and scatterspam i might ask for a list tone-down.

I agree with asking to tone the cheese down if that is the case.

The best always are games where both parties have via le armies and the winner can't be determined from the contents of their lists alone.

 Desubot wrote:
Imperial guard: FW artillery carriage + ignore cover for the scatter bikes or a Moo and ignore cover order works too. lots of dudes for Deep strike denialing Wraith guide d flamer things. Take it down order and lots of las cannons or other goodies against wraith knight (1) (more than 3 is slowed) or all together ignore all of that and take more bodies than there are table space and bore your opponent to death.

The MOO scatters wildly (though for 20 points, you shouldn't expect pinpoint bombardment) and is unreliable, but it's not a terrible option at all since you're probably taking a CCS. Have fun keeping one alive though. Bonus points for having the blast scatter off onto another unit of bikers so they can't jink it. Triple bonus points if it lands on something invisible. All the points if it's a Seer council who didn't get fortune off that turn.

Deep striking denial is pointless when your bubblewrap can easily be stripped away to a man before turn 2 and Eldar don't have T1 DS'ers (bar scalpel squadron allies).

That's 41 take it down'ed lascannon shots to drop a wraithknight with a toe in cover. Good luck with that before it gets into your lines and rapes your face off. You're actually better off with ignores cover on the lascannons since that drops it to "only" 27 shots, assuming you're facing the dual wraithcannon one and not the sword/shield one. That's now in the realms of possibility, but it's still not an answer to scatbikes.

Yes, ignores cover artillery batteries are a thing, and they are the guards own cheese, but what if FW isn't allowed in your meta? What do IG and chaos players do then (other than cry in a corner)?

I generally play fluffy chaos lists, and I will refuse to play Eldar as there is no point in the game. In turn, one of my other armies is a Knight household that I only ever bring out for tournaments or if someone asks, for the same reason, there's no point in playing it against fluffy lists. One side simply plays deploy and remove models while the other side rolls dice. There's no malice in refusing a game that's over before the models even touch the table.

I play Chaos because I like the fluff, I play Knights because I can get my Battletech on with big stompy robots blowing up infantry and tanks or dueling with other big stompy robots. Others play Eldar because they like their looks/fluff/whatever and that's fine, but nothing says we can't decide that my Chaos will play his Guard or orks instead of my chaos vs his eldar or my knights vs his orks. The latter 2 are not fun games (generally), but the former can be a fairly good game.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

Granted, I haven't lost to Newdar yet, but still. I don't think the codex is better.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Auuuuhhhh, dos da poor wittle Eldar player get butthurt because no one wants to play against his god tier list?

Look, insults aside, there is no way in hell I will play against Eldar. I have a bad enough time with Marines and Space Puppies. Dark Angels and Grey Knights. And these armies are considered weaker than the Eldar codex. have seen the Eldar book. I have seen what it contains. I have seen just how much of the D that can be spammed with ease. I have seen just how stupidly under priced it is.

My Guard struggle against Marines. Marines are eaten alive by Eldar. I have no chance against anything like that.

Ironically, guard don't do too bad against Eldar. Both mass cover saves behind an aegis line and splitting into squads to limit Eldar damage potential is pretty good against them. Also, we have an ignores cover order on our blob Lascannons that cause them to take out a serpent in one shot on average. And Battlecannons are the bomb against Scatbikes and Wraithguards.

That is, against the standard Eldar Cheesy List of Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, and Scytheguard in Serpents. Guard does not have such an advantage against stuff like mounted up dire avengers or night spinners.

Just because a codex is chock full of OP gak doesn't mean they can have all of it at once and most armies are playing to beat space marines and Necrons, not guard.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wait, the Necron codex is straight up better? I'm confused.

Someone is perhaps a bit too confident in the Necrons' durability. Believe me, Eldar are one of the few armies that can stand up to Decurion Necrons.

Granted, I haven't lost to Newdar yet, but still. I don't think the codex is better.

Tournament results bear out the general trend.

Back in 6th, I played a Swordwind 1500 against an IG list.

I had a single wave serpent. Everything that had anything with s6+ - including two Battlecannons - shot at that thing. I made an unbelievable number of 4+'s, but mostly he failed to hit a ton.

I can get how it sucks that an AV12 can have a 4+. Which certainly pissed him off.
however, the core of his list was two LRs in front of a PFG. So a single AV12 4+ cover was bad, but a *pair* of AV14 with 4++ should be just fine?

(I won because he divided the rest of his fire. Two of my squads were removed, but all but one of my other squads were down to just the Exarch. Seriously, that Plasma Gun will do a *lot* more to a Dark Reaper or Farseer than an AV12 tank. Also, I never shot at the AV14. I had to soak the fire until I could get rear armor shots.)

Yes Eldar are OP. that doesn't mean (1) that all lists are OP or (2) that there is nothing you can do.

(Army swap? Why would I want to do that? When did I decide how this guy is holding his plasma gun? Or where that guy is aiming his pistol? What do those colors mean to me? Why would I not want to play with the army where I have back stories for their company? Or each unit's shrine? If you don't want to face my CW Eldar, fine. Perhaps well play when I bring my Marines, or Tau, or DE, or Corsairs, or Harlies. But they'll be about as tough as the Eldar I'll want to field.)

Bharring wrote:
(Army swap? Why would I want to do that? When did I decide how this guy is holding his plasma gun? Or where that guy is aiming his pistol? What do those colors mean to me? Why would I not want to play with the army where I have back stories for their company? Or each unit's shrine? If you don't want to face my CW Eldar, fine. Perhaps well play when I bring my Marines, or Tau, or DE, or Corsairs, or Harlies. But they'll be about as tough as the Eldar I'll want to field.)

This is obviously aimed at calling out the kind of abusive WAAC lists that don't care about fluff or backstory anyway, only final rankings.

Obviously there's a huge divide between players who are looking for fun experiences -- fair, thematic, interesting -- and the peeps who mostly want as much of a lopsided blowout as possible to get a better tourney score, and see casual games as "training".

My 2 cents.

There used to be armies in the past (or units) that people have shelved until the next codex comes out simply because they are way underpowered/useless and can never win games.

Somehow we got to a point where a codex (Eldar) or, more specifically, certain units (Wraithlord, scatterbikes, Seer Council) are so good that they almost need to be shelved outside of competitive play.

So how do we fix this? Unfortunately for now its going to be like that until the next Eldar codex comes out.

But as a temporary measure, just dont take scatterbikes, wraithlords, or seer councils to friendly games (its possible that ANY eldar jetbike now has this stigma).

Another possibility that could be legit...is see if your local players that are refusing games would be willing to play against the Eldar 6th edition codex.

I'm not saying these people are right to refuse to play (I'd play you).

Dman137 wrote:


Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.

Gotta call BS here. I've seen just as much enmity directed towards crons, with their non-interactive near-invincibility, tau, with their sit-back-and-shoot auto-pilot strategy.

And of course, woe be unto you if you play marines. Because apparently as a marine player you automatically own inquisition, some sisters, assassins, admech, skitarii, Knights, 50 drop pods, some Astra militarum, tons of grav units, and a dozen chapters worth of marine special characters, in addition to all the marines you actually have. If you don't own those $20000+ worth of models, then you deserve to lose because you're not "learning to play" and "adapting."

TL;DR: no bro, try playing anything imperial or tactically-unengaging-yet-strong like tau or crons. You haven't even begun to see the depths of army hate.

Pretty much everything but the full company in the space marines dex is actually pretty balanced

Drop pods might be insane but mostly only with allies that it actually gets broken

"Army swap? Why would I want to do that?"

Because then I can inflict BA on you.

" But they'll be about as tough as the Eldar I'll want to field."

I can almost guarantee your marines are not as tough as your Eldar. Unless you normally rock out invis cent stars with your marine list. Random Eldar units from a hat are still better than BA, lol.

wraithknights and dcannons aren't what make eldar stupid. i sold my eldar army when the new book came out because of scat bikes. 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes was fine. allowing every single troop model in your whole army to have 4s6 shots is a load of bull. no other army gets to do that; especially not on something so fast, survivable etc.

DE jet bikes get bad armour AND have to spread the weapons around. hows that make sense?

im trying to build competitive chaos marines. your list for da boyz is getting heckled because its taking advantage of a comp that gives eldar an exponential boost that most armies cant compete with.

you can talk about necrons and space marines being competitive, and ill agree they are. but they dont do anything so broken that it just makes you shake your head.

Wave Serpents were stupid in the old book. that quantity of high strength ignore cover shots broke SO many armies. so many armies that rely on cover suddenly know that when they show up to a tournament theyre going to play armies that completely negate that and its going to be spammed.

Now they fix serpents and break bikes. i havent heard one person complaining (much) about wraithknights or the D. its the scat bikes.

I applaud eldar players who either dont use them, use them, like they used to be or at the very least, dont spam them. its a well written book where pretty much every unit could be used in some sense.

but dont sit there and cry about people whining when you show up with a TROOP unit that is absurdly undercosted and able to bring heavy weapons to an extent that no other army can even come close to. it's ludicris.

how would you feel if every single space marine bike could strap on grav guns? like.. come on.

you sound like a rich person complaining about paying too much tax. #toptierproblems