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Really hope we aren't going to do another comparison between eldar and marine units that serve the same role.
That didn't go so well for the eldar party.

I watched 2 Wraithknights murder my 5 Imperial Knight Titans in less than 3 Turns.

L2P? You better learn to dodge a wrench!

Martel,
Cast of Players is several hundred points. 225 absolute bare minimum, I think, but it will almost always have lots of upgrades. But I suppose that's Harlies, not CWE. I just figured i'd throw out what happened the last time BAs fought my Eldar.

You know who fears and respects Boltguns? Elitists with t3 5+ or even 4+.

Aki,
It will never end well when Guardians are known to wipe the floor with Tacs because Scatter Bikes and Wraiths.

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
Cast of Players is several hundred points. 225 absolute bare minimum, I think, but it will almost always have lots of upgrades. But I suppose that's Harlies, not CWE. I just figured i'd throw out what happened the last time BAs fought my Eldar.

You know who fears and respects Boltguns? Elitists with t3 5+ or even 4+.

Aki,
It will never end well when Guardians are known to wipe the floor with Tacs because Scatter Bikes and Wraiths.

I wouldn't say guardians wipe the floor with Tacs, since I've never personally seen them in play.
However, guardians get access to:
A warlock, which while more expensive, blows a sarge right out of the water with conceal and a few other powers. Conceal in a 5+ cover area makes guardians a chore to move or deal with.
A heavy support platform. The platform carries often better weapons then a Tac squad and is harder to remove with a lucky precision shot.

The main difference here, is that tacs are more equivalent to dire avengers then guardians. Guardians are more like...what are those units black templars used to have? Or bolter/chainsword armed scouts (for defenders/storm).

And as I proved in the last thread, marines should be more afraid of avengers then the other way around. Outside of cover, sure, guardians die. But they can be sat in cover to hold an objective with a 3/2+ cover save and a decent gun for less then a full tac squad.


EDIT
When I said didn't end well for the eldar side, I'm implying they lost the argument.

Honestly, I haven't played against Eldar (yet), so the only reason I don't like them is because they're elves. I just don't like elves. Never have, never will. As a new player, and an ork player, I probably won't care if my army gets obliterated when I go up against them.

Now, I do get a bit irked if someone chooses Eldar (or any army) specifically because they're top-teir. I chose orks not because I think they're good, but because I think they're hilarious. I think they look cool and their fluff is loose enough that I can make my own canon for my army. Now, if someone is going to tournaments and is super-srs about it, sure, fine, but that seems to defeat the point for me.

What makes you think the platform is harder to remove via precision?

And as shown in previous threads, equal points of Avengers and naked CSM result in CSM doing whatever the feth they want for 10 turns until the DAs finish them off, as long as they can get at least a 5+ cover.

Unless they get a 4+, the DAs get a bad Move through Cover, or somehow get into rapiffirs range. Then the CSM win.

So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

Heres the issue with that, besides being anecdotal evidence and tournament focused to boot, the books existence literally pushes out quite a large portion of other options across the spectrum. And fwiw so does certain builds of crons and marines.

Now I will agree that each eldar player is different and some do like to play those options that are not OP'd or even take the ones that are in moderation, and this is not directed at them. BUT those players are in my experience pretty rare. Thank god we have some around here. However I honestly believe most players literally lack the self restraint to pass on or limit themselves from no brainer OP'd options. Like most great concepts they fall flat when introduced to human nature.

Bharring wrote:
What makes you think the platform is harder to remove via precision?

I'm AFB so I may be getting them mixed up with the heavy support options, but don't they come with their own rules, toughness, and armor save? I'm reasonably sure they get relentless, making them pretty good though overpriced.

Bharring wrote:

And as shown in previous threads, equal points of Avengers and naked CSM result in CSM doing whatever the feth they want for 10 turns until the DAs finish them off, as long as they can get at least a 5+ cover.

It was CSM returning fire vs avengers running around shooting them up that resulted in CSM getting wiped in 5 turns. We ran them naked and with plasma weapons, the most common loadout, and avengers did better point for point.

Bharring wrote:

Unless they get a 4+, the DAs get a bad Move through Cover, or somehow get into rapiffirs range. Then the CSM win.

The DA's don't need cover, though this could happen. The 4+ doesn't help enough to make the marines win (remember, DA are putting out twice as many shots).
They really can't get into rapid fire range without taking a rhino, which dies if something looks at it funny. Against eldar, it won't survive for the 2-3 turns, and even then they would need to disembark and reembark every turn to maintain rapid fire.

There are very few corner case scenarios in which the marines beat DA. I would imagine 3 flamers and drop podding is the only one the marine player can count on happening however.


I'd like to run guardians versus marines but I'm AFB and can't make an equal points squad to a loaded out marine squad. Would be interesting. I'd imagine with battle focus, conceal, and cover, it's probably close.

Bharring wrote:
What makes you think the platform is harder to remove via precision?

And as shown in previous threads, equal points of Avengers and naked CSM result in CSM doing whatever the feth they want for 10 turns until the DAs finish them off, as long as they can get at least a 5+ cover.

Unless they get a 4+, the DAs get a bad Move through Cover, or somehow get into rapiffirs range. Then the CSM win.

Weren't you proven to have done the math incorrectly with the Dire Avengers vs CSM's math?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[Weren't you proven to have done the math incorrectly with the Dire Avengers vs CSM's math?

At least he's doing it. Most posters simply rely on SWAG ("sweet wild-ass guess") and talking out their

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[Weren't you proven to have done the math incorrectly with the Dire Avengers vs CSM's math?

At least he's doing it. Most posters simply rely on SWAG ("sweet wild-ass guess") and talking out their

If you had read the thread, his math was proven incorrect by another poster doing the math correctly.
Wild accusations were made by the eldar players about how much better marines are. When the math was run, it turns out the DA are a lot better than marines in that match up.

Talking out their....bleep...indeed

Hey I'll take 2 mathematicians blundering their way towards understanding over the typical Dakka drama queens any day.

As they say, to err is human!

Theoryhammer is the greatest battle of them all

Dman137 wrote:
So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way

I can see why your soft scores get tanked.

I'm willing to at least admit my CentStar is dirty cheese, and that the new Codex: Marines is a bit silly.

Corrected the math? Like the time you ran the numbers without cover to show that that my numbers that explicitly state a 5+ cover were wrong?

Or the time that the numbers were run based on BS5 a3 from the formation?

Or all the talk of an Exarch without Precision Shots sniping the special/heavy weapons?

As for why DAs would go through terrain, because the CSM run the show. If they don't do their exact, controllable counter every round, the Marines win.

And it appears there's still a difference in methodology! Our hopes have been dashed -- nothing is resolved!

Who will be proven the better master of theoryhammer? Bharring, or the guy who's post I didn't read?

Will Martel732 reach his breaking point and forever give up playing Blood Angels?

Will Dman137 be accepted rather than hated for playing Eldar?

Will Filch's 5 IK titans ever win a match against Wraithknights?

Tune in tomorrow for our next exciting episode of "Dakka Dakka 40k General Discussion"!!!

Yoyoyo wrote:
And it appears there's still a difference in methodology! Our hopes have been dashed -- nothing is resolved!

Who will be proven the better master of theoryhammer? Bharring, or the guy who's post I didn't read?

Will Martel732 reach his breaking point and forever give up playing Blood Angels?

Will Dman137 be accepted rather than hated for playing Eldar?

Will Filch's 5 IK titans ever win a match against Wraithknights?

Tune in tomorrow for our next exciting episode of "Dakka Dakka 40k General Discussion"!!!

You're exalted.

Exalted EDIT Gahhhh ya beat me

I'll take both!

LOL

Although I think the overall consensus of the thread is that the Eldar hate should continue.

No, the hate is therapeutic.

It does not need to stop, those players are riding the wave of the powerful codex of maximum GW favoritism.

It is like being the favored child in a large family: you will be hated but reap the benefits all you can while it lasts.

Learn to play...... You have some arrogance. Especially coming from a guy running crazy cheese eldar. It's easy to hate on the haters and tell people to learn how to play and quit whining when you always win and never have to go past turn 3 because your d spam and 30" scatbikes have wiped the table. Deny all you want - but if you played a fair list you wouldn't be dealing with the whimpering and hence wouldn't make such a post.

I myself have played crazy powerful lists. My ork speed freaks, DE venomspam, necron disco inferno, and so on. Generally I make the list, play a few and if the gaming group says it's too much - it's shelved and kept for tourneys. And even then I'll make a point of telling people I know are playing - "hey I'm taking my super x list for this - I intend to win." Especially if it's a pay to enter and prize up for grabs. If it's a friendly one I take something else.

It's pretty much proven eldar are broken overly stinky Gouda. Necron decurion maybe. Haven't encounterd marine or played sky hammer yet. I'm curious if it's as bad (and since I had the models previously I'm trying it out) but you don't get to run the super list, win and then tell people to learn to play when you win and get the hate. That's callled being a sore winner or TFG.

Maybe YOU should learn to play and bring something low tier. Maybe orks, bugs, etc. Then we will see how loud you can cry.

Eldar were my first army back in the days of 3rd edition. I chose them after watching some guys play in the barracks in Okinawa. There was a chaos guy, IG guy, eldar guy and dark eldar guy. The Eldar army stood out to me due to asthetic and rules sounding cool even though I didn't really understand how the game worked and what was good and what was bad. I don't remember the eldar guy smashing everyone either.

A couple years later I started my army with a hodge podge of stuff I liked, plus the underwealming starter box forces. Almost as soon as I started people are whining about wraithlords (I had one) and starcannons (I would only take one ore two). I was a new player who didn't know the game, was losing frequently and my opponents are whining about me using miniscule amounts of stuff was considered OP. I limited myself to one lord and a couple of starcannons most games I played until the fourth edition codex when both got nerfed because I didn't mind the challenge of winning with less than the best units in the game and preferred for my opponent to not have easy excuses for why they lost.

I learned right out the the gate though that people will complain about Eldar for no reason and without bothering to look at context. Their brain never moves past "Eldar are OP". This prevents them from looking at the actual list being fielded or the skill of the opposing player. Instead they are worked up into a frenzy and outright refuse to play. That apparently has not changed at all.

When the fourth edition codex hit, I finally got enough wraithguard, after an eternity of looking for a good price on ebay, to field an Iyanden army. So I played my first game with two full squads and lost. Then lost the next, then the next, then the next, then the next... Somewhere in the midst of it I lost to a guy grumbling about how wraithlords were OP and my whole army was OP as he beat me soundly. The losing streak as I started with that army rose to around 8 before I finally had the right balance and tactics to begin winning, then winning consistently. That experience reinforced the idea that players will whine about Eldar being OP without any actual thought to what they are facing. He was still stuck in complaints from the previous codex, whining about stuff that had been nerfed still being OP and not recogizing that my army lacked mobility, ranged killing power and could easily be tarpitted and neutralized.

But it wasn't limited to my Eldar. Around that time I started playing Dark Eldar. Their book was 8 years old or something like that. They had one good option for taking out armor, the dark lance, which they could take in abundance. Dark Eldar were very hard to win with, and rarely played, but I liked the challenge so I went with it. The cries of OP and cheese persisted there too. The math on lances to take out a vehicle AV12-14 was something like 1/9. So basically if all my lances fired in a given turn I could take out one vehicle. I had to take plenty because if I faced a list with more than one or two vehicles, I would be helpless against them without plenty of lances. But people would complain about one of the most outdated, weakest armies being cheesy. I never bothered to shoot at monoliths because doing so was just a waste of firepower. I had to accept that they would do whatever they wanted the entire game (like teleporting warriors out of cc so my wyches could be rapid fired to death) and try as hard as possible for phase out.

Playing both Eldar and Dark Eldar I would hear grumbles from time to time about how they were OP while watching players make terrible tactical decisions leading to their losses. Try sending a sacrificial lamb to be killed by the scary cc unit, move other units away from it and wait for that cc unit to be stranded in the open in rapid fire range rather than having all you units in a nice tight blob where I can easily bounce from one to the next to the next while never getting shot.

The point of all of this is that the cries of Eldar OP that I've heard in this thread are much like the cries I've heard for years. They remain in some cases simply unreasoned, panicky, whining. No effort is made to evaluate individual armies on the merits. Maybe the units are individually too strong, but if the Eldar player isn't very good you should be able to beat him. Or maybe he is good and deliberately chose things that are weaker or don't synergize well and you should be able to compete. I am convinced though that some who play against Eldar are unable to see the flaws and weaknesses in an Edar list and develop a plan to capitalize on them. And while LTP may be a trite way to put it, that is exactly what they need to do. They need to realize they aren't as good as they think they are and Eldar (or any other army for that matter) aren't as unbeatable as they think and do something about it by looking for new tactics or working to develop them themselves. That often won't happen because it is much easier to dismiss their failures as being due to the other guy having an unfair advantage rather than accept the more troubling reality that they aren't as good as they think they are.

Eldar don't win all the tournaments. Many players are able to beat them and beat them consistently. You probably can too especially if you don't work yourself up into a defeatest mindset before you even begin.

Now before you come back at me with tales of how I'm an Eldar elitist, I will freely admit that OP stuff exists. As I noted above, I made efforts to limit my use of those things in the past. I will also admit that Eldar can draw people to the army because they may have some easy win options they find appealing. They can win many games content with their superiority as a player never realizing it is more to do with the tools they have available than their skills at game play. So people with a wildly unrealistic understanding of their personal skill can be found amongst winning Eldar players, just as much as amongst losing Mon Keigh players.

I will also note that GW ticks me off when they do things that makes it so you basically can't field something due to something else being way over the top. When whole army concepts are more or less unplayable because something else is too hard a counter while still being viable against plenty of other builds, there is a real problem. I'll acknowledge that. But throwing out the whole codex because certiain portions of it, if taken to extremes invalidate armies is going overboard as well. Maybe step back a second and look at what your opponent actually brought. He may have self imposed limitation on the OP stuff and not be deserving of reproach. He may have deliberately or in ignorance chosen things that won't synergize well producing an army that is less than the sum of its parts giving you a good chance to win.

" And while LTP may be a trite way to put it, that is exactly what they need to do."

You take my BA, and then try to learn to play. Let me know how that works out for you. I'll be scatterlasering everyone to death with your list as you die in transit.

" He may have self imposed limitation on the OP stuff"

I have never known an Eldar player who did this. Not in 2nd. Not in 3rd. Not in 5th. Not in 6th. Not in 7th.

" They remain in some cases simply unreasoned, panicky, whining"

Pretty sure I didn't imagine their 2nd ed codex. Or their 3rd. Or their 6th. Or their 7th. Try again.

"Eldar don't win all the tournaments."

That's because they gimp them.

Took a better read of the OP post.
Yep, competitive play is the thing of surmounting obstacles.
Problem is, it is not a "competitive" game.

Eldar is certainly the easiest for maximizing the impact of all the randomness that is 7th edition 40k which is the smart way to start.

Yes, sure, "learn to play" just takes a heck of a lot less effort using Eldar.

Plus the "rock paper scissors" aspect of list building sure makes it easier to tailor a list to beat the OP but typically opponents would not keep you in mind when building a list.

It is not all about you!

@martel

Did you not read my post? I know that it is long, but I did explain that when I started in 3rd edition, a wet behind the ears newb with a lousy army of random stuff getting beat by veterans they would complain if I took one wraithlord, or two starcannons. I didn't take that as an invitation to get more since those were the OP things, but played with a self imposed limit on them and tried other stuff and people would still gripe. Two star cannons were in no way OP expecially with only one platform (my wraithlord) that had BS4. I could kill one or two marines a turn with them and would take the whole game to get my points back if I was lucky.

Maybe you are really unlucky with only having Eldar players who only play the best stuff available in the codex, but I (when I played) was an Eldar player that listend to people's complaints and limited what I took based on that. I know I'm not the only one who did that. And I'm telling you that in my experience, people have a bad habit of making the problem a lot worse than it is. Two starcannons in 3rd edition were not something the cry about, but people did anyway because of that time someone brought twenty. So since one guy brought twenty, I have to listen to whining about 2?

I wouldn't run from the challenge of trying to find a way to be competitive with any army. I just wrote about how I played one of the weakest, hardest most out of date codexes in 4th and 5th editions. The monolith was virtually invincible for my army, but I didn't complain about it. I accepted that and focused on ways I could be effective against Necrons rather than wasting energy wringing my hands in despair at its invincibility.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't deliberately pulling quotes out of context to misrepresent what I was saying and that you just used small snippets to keep it short. The LTP comment was part of a larger whole describing with examples ways people are themselves overly simplistic and at times simply wrong in their evaluation of Eldar.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Eldar were my first army back in the days of 3rd edition. I chose them after watching some guys play in the barracks in Okinawa. There was a chaos guy, IG guy, eldar guy and dark eldar guy. The Eldar army stood out to me due to asthetic and rules sounding cool even though I didn't really understand how the game worked and what was good and what was bad. I don't remember the eldar guy smashing everyone either.

A couple years later I started my army with a hodge podge of stuff I liked, plus the underwealming starter box forces. Almost as soon as I started people are whining about wraithlords (I had one) and starcannons (I would only take one ore two). I was a new player who didn't know the game, was losing frequently and my opponents are whining about me using miniscule amounts of stuff was considered OP. I limited myself to one lord and a couple of starcannons most games I played until the fourth edition codex when both got nerfed because I didn't mind the challenge of winning with less than the best units in the game and preferred for my opponent to not have easy excuses for why they lost.

I learned right out the the gate though that people will complain about Eldar for no reason and without bothering to look at context. Their brain never moves past "Eldar are OP". This prevents them from looking at the actual list being fielded or the skill of the opposing player. Instead they are worked up into a frenzy and outright refuse to play. That apparently has not changed at all.

When the fourth edition codex hit, I finally got enough wraithguard, after an eternity of looking for a good price on ebay, to field an Iyanden army. So I played my first game with two full squads and lost. Then lost the next, then the next, then the next, then the next... Somewhere in the midst of it I lost to a guy grumbling about how wraithlords were OP and my whole army was OP as he beat me soundly. The losing streak as I started with that army rose to around 8 before I finally had the right balance and tactics to begin winning, then winning consistently. That experience reinforced the idea that players will whine about Eldar being OP without any actual thought to what they are facing. He was still stuck in complaints from the previous codex, whining about stuff that had been nerfed still being OP and not recogizing that my army lacked mobility, ranged killing power and could easily be tarpitted and neutralized.

But it wasn't limited to my Eldar. Around that time I started playing Dark Eldar. Their book was 8 years old or something like that. They had one good option for taking out armor, the dark lance, which they could take in abundance. Dark Eldar were very hard to win with, and rarely played, but I liked the challenge so I went with it. The cries of OP and cheese persisted there too. The math on lances to take out a vehicle AV12-14 was something like 1/9. So basically if all my lances fired in a given turn I could take out one vehicle. I had to take plenty because if I faced a list with more than one or two vehicles, I would be helpless against them without plenty of lances. But people would complain about one of the most outdated, weakest armies being cheesy. I never bothered to shoot at monoliths because doing so was just a waste of firepower. I had to accept that they would do whatever they wanted the entire game (like teleporting warriors out of cc so my wyches could be rapid fired to death) and try as hard as possible for phase out.

Playing both Eldar and Dark Eldar I would hear grumbles from time to time about how they were OP while watching players make terrible tactical decisions leading to their losses. Try sending a sacrificial lamb to be killed by the scary cc unit, move other units away from it and wait for that cc unit to be stranded in the open in rapid fire range rather than having all you units in a nice tight blob where I can easily bounce from one to the next to the next while never getting shot.

The point of all of this is that the cries of Eldar OP that I've heard in this thread are much like the cries I've heard for years. They remain in some cases simply unreasoned, panicky, whining. No effort is made to evaluate individual armies on the merits. Maybe the units are individually too strong, but if the Eldar player isn't very good you should be able to beat him. Or maybe he is good and deliberately chose things that are weaker or don't synergize well and you should be able to compete. I am convinced though that some who play against Eldar are unable to see the flaws and weaknesses in an Edar list and develop a plan to capitalize on them. And while LTP may be a trite way to put it, that is exactly what they need to do. They need to realize they aren't as good as they think they are and Eldar (or any other army for that matter) aren't as unbeatable as they think and do something about it by looking for new tactics or working to develop them themselves. That often won't happen because it is much easier to dismiss their failures as being due to the other guy having an unfair advantage rather than accept the more troubling reality that they aren't as good as they think they are.

Eldar don't win all the tournaments. Many players are able to beat them and beat them consistently. You probably can too especially if you don't work yourself up into a defeatest mindset before you even begin.

Now before you come back at me with tales of how I'm an Eldar elitist, I will freely admit that OP stuff exists. As I noted above, I made efforts to limit my use of those things in the past. I will also admit that Eldar can draw people to the army because they may have some easy win options they find appealing. They can win many games content with their superiority as a player never realizing it is more to do with the tools they have available than their skills at game play. So people with a wildly unrealistic understanding of their personal skill can be found amongst winning Eldar players, just as much as amongst losing Mon Keigh players.

I will also note that GW ticks me off when they do things that makes it so you basically can't field something due to something else being way over the top. When whole army concepts are more or less unplayable because something else is too hard a counter while still being viable against plenty of other builds, there is a real problem. I'll acknowledge that. But throwing out the whole codex because certiain portions of it, if taken to extremes invalidate armies is going overboard as well. Maybe step back a second and look at what your opponent actually brought. He may have self imposed limitation on the OP stuff and not be deserving of reproach. He may have deliberately or in ignorance chosen things that won't synergize well producing an army that is less than the sum of its parts giving you a good chance to win.

You my friend hit the nail on the head, some one said before that there aren't OP army's just OP players. I myself admit that when going to to a event I bring the cheese (or what I think is cheese) might not be the best army out there but I try to bring something I feel confident will win and with confidence in yourself and the list you bring you tend to have some success, in my experenes I have had some good events and some bad. When I was learning how to play I'm pretty sure I went a long time without ever winning but every game I lost I took something from it and always tried to improve my tactics and army. And I feel like now people (not all but some) just give up instead of trying find ways to beat things, me for example I try to play everyday if I can against different army's (strong lists, or list I think will beat me) and try to see if there is a way for me to win or at the very least survive. In regards to my post and saying LTP I apologize for my wording, I should have said learn a new strategy or find ways to beat the army or army's you no your going to face.

In a frendly game I usually make up some random list I want to try or I'll tell my opponent "hey I want to try this out to see how it works" and those games are fun, but I've ran into people that just me saying the words eldar, they get all bent out of shape and just refuse to play, regardless of the list I want to use. As for GT events and what not, my big problem is that some people (not all) will bomb my soft scores all because of the army I'm using, I have played against some pretty cheesy army's (screemerstar, centstar, flying circus ect.) and I got my crap pushed in but at the end of the game I don't judge my opponent on his army selection because like me he is there to win. I judge him (or her) on they way they acted during the game, towards me, were they fair, were they a A-hole ect. And I go from there I honestly think in about 15 years of playing I only gave 1 person a zero for sports and that's because he picked up my model and threw it (he's lucky I didn't punch him in the face lol)

But all in all I say that I want the eldar hate to stop because I feel like some people just find it easier to complain about the army instead I'm trying to learn ways to beat it.

Dman137 wrote:


But all in all I say that I want the eldar hate to stop because I feel like some people just find it easier to complain about the army instead I'm trying to learn ways to beat it.

There's no "mystery" or learning to do really. There's nothing new about Eldar that makes them play significantly different than in past editions or iterations. They're just way better at what they did. Wraithguard still are the short-ranged heavy infantry they always were, they just hit insanely way harder than they used to. Jetbikes are just as mobile, survivable, and whatnot as they used to be, they can just pack way more firepower. Likewise Wraithknights are still the T8 multiwound models with tons of mobility and either high capability shooting or CC attacks that they were in the previous book, they're just even harder to kill with even scarier attacks than they used to be.

You're trying to make it out like there's just some mystery people arne't getting when that's a completely false premise. The tools and methods of beating the Eldar haven't changed, they're just less effective. There's nothing really new to learn. The Eldar didn't gain some new key weakness, there's nothing about their fundamental nature that has inherently shifted the ways to beat them, they're just better than they were before, which to many was already pretty top-end. That's a simple reality.

They're also not the only one's complained about. Necrons and the new SM book get tons of flak, Necrons particularly so.

Nope.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:


But all in all I say that I want the eldar hate to stop because I feel like some people just find it easier to complain about the army instead I'm trying to learn ways to beat it.

There's no "mystery" or learning to do really. There's nothing new about Eldar that makes them play significantly different than in past editions or iterations. They're just way better at what they did. Wraithguard still are the short-ranged heavy infantry they always were, they just hit insanely way harder than they used to. Jetbikes are just as mobile, survivable, and whatnot as they used to be, they can just pack way more firepower. Likewise Wraithknights are still the T8 multiwound models with tons of mobility and either high capability shooting or CC attacks that they were in the previous book, they're just even harder to kill with even scarier attacks than they used to be.

You're trying to make it out like there's just some mystery people arne't getting when that's a completely false premise. The tools and methods of beating the Eldar haven't changed, they're just less effective. There's nothing really new to learn. The Eldar didn't gain some new key weakness, there's nothing about their fundamental nature that has inherently shifted the ways to beat them, they're just better than they were before, which to many was already pretty top-end. That's a simple reality.

They're also not the only one's complained about. Necrons and the new SM book get tons of flak, Necrons particularly so.

Again, as you have indirectly pointed out, the problem is with those three units in the Eldar codex, not Eldar as a whole. There are plenty of armies that have no effective counter to Scarbikers, massed D-Weapons, or the Wraithknight. Fortunately, Eldar have units other than Scatbikers and Wraithknights, and not every space elf is carrying a D-Weapon.

This is the internet. People complain about everything around here. A week or two ago we had someone claiming the entire Tau codex was OP, including Vespids and Fire Warrios (and it was an Eldar player too). Suffice it to say, he caught a lot of flak for that. I'll do the same to anyone who claims the entire Eldar codex is OP too.

Face it, Eldar do not have a monopoly on cheese in this game. Chaos Daemons is still going strong, Tyranids have undercosted FMCs, Grav Centurions are still around, and Admech/Skitarii and Knights are cheesing it out in ways previously not thought possible. All of these are generally considered too cheesy for play outside of tournaments, and we can likewise throw Scatbikers and D-Weapons and Wraithknights into that mix. But the entire Eldar codex? I'd say that's going a bit far.

All we do is sit around steaming in a pile of negativity complaining about how this unit is broken and that unit is OP, and don't realize that there are other options available. Don't go all out with the gouda or only add a bit of cheddar when you're playing for fun. This place could seriously use some perspective. It'll probably die down when someone has a bad game against Necrons or Admech/Skitarii and the whole cycle will begin again, with the same people rehashing the same old arguments in the same kinds of threads. It's beginning to get old, is what I'm saying.