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Just how are Rangers much better than Sniper Scouts? Side grade at best.

How are Storm Guardians better than Guardsmen?

Is a BL on a Guardian unit going to do much more than a Tac squad with a Lascannon, for the points? Even though the latter is considered garbage?

Is an Autarch even comparable to a Captain?

How does Mephy compare to either Eldred? Or Dante to a Phoenix Lord?

How are your Tac Marines afraid of Guardians on foot?

Why does a Vyper so clearly outclass a Land Speeder?

How do Wraithblades compare to Termies?

I really disagree that everything in the Dex is categorically better than anything anyone else has.

Bharring wrote:
Just how are Rangers much better than Sniper Scouts? Side grade at best.

How are Storm Guardians better than Guardsmen?

Is a BL on a Guardian unit going to do much more than a Tac squad with a Lascannon, for the points? Even though the latter is considered garbage?

Is an Autarch even comparable to a Captain?

How does Mephy compare to either Eldred? Or Dante to a Phoenix Lord?

How are your Tac Marines afraid of Guardians on foot?

Why does a Vyper so clearly outclass a Land Speeder?

How do Wraithblades compare to Termies?

I really disagree that everything in the Dex is categorically better than anything anyone else has.

That's your right. But you also have the right to be incorrect. I guess it's the kind of thing that has to be shown to you over and over via army swaps. After 10 or so straight BA losses on your part, you might get it.

Read and digest the post by Sir Donlad. Now imagine it being even worse because BA are probably the worst codex in the game. (After rethinking CSM a bit)

Eh, I mean, I dislike the eldar because they are space elves, but their book does have a lot of what seems over the top. The D flamers are a huge bummer, the wraithknight (like the imperial knight, and the dreadknight used to be) is a huge bummer to face. It's no fun to just have your models removed from play with no random chance to save them.

I dislike playing them a lot because they break a lot of rules other armies follow. They can ignore the need to choose between running and shooting, they seem to not care about failing psychic tests, as they get re-rolls, and their powers all seem pretty damned good.

The necrons have in defense, what the eldar have in offence.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

The necrons have in defense, what the eldar have in offence.

One attempt by GW to have the fluff resembled correctly in game?

I also notice your list of units left out:

Dark Reapers
Scorpions
Banshees
Dire Avengers
Warp Spiders
War Walkers
Wave Serpents

These units will cut BA lists to little tiny red ribbons. Your middling units are better than the best of what the BA can bring.


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 krodarklorr wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

The necrons have in defense, what the eldar have in offence.

One attempt by GW to have the fluff resembled correctly in game?

LOL I guess.

Eldar CC list would feature the Phoenix lord who can destroy every Ork CC IC and CHaracter in every duel, every single time. so yeah Im going to say Orks lose.

The funniest part of this is your trying to defend the CWE still even though your defense is "IF I don't take 3/4th of my codex you have a 50/50 chance"

Just admit CWE are broken and are ridiculously OP and not fun to play against.

" "IF I don't take 3/4th of my codex you have a 50/50 chance" "

That's Bharring's manifesto. BA players man up and admit that BA were totally insane in 3rd. I guess Eldar are just embarrassed or something.

BA bring the most horrible things we can think of and we are minor annoyance... for Tau.

Not about people stopping the alpha strike... it is about still pushing through knowing that you are going to lose models... I have played against plenty of people who stop the alpha strike which is something you either attempt to work around... or build a different list... and if you have no desire to do either then it would probably be best to simply find a new hobby... kayaking is fun



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I actually am not sure what was better in 3rd my sang cheese or my biel-tan... course alaitoc always did well for me (yea I used to have like 10,000 points of eldar, however, 4th saw the end of them :(

I guess I'm No True Eldar then.

Do you really read anything that says "Parts of the whole aren't X" as "The whole isn't X"?

Do I really come across to most people, especially when i say things like "The Eldar dex is OP", or "They didn't need the buff", as arguing that the Eldar dex is *not* OP? Because I didn't think I was *that* bad at communicating.

Eldar can be very unfun to play against. So can Skyhammer. Or Decurion. Or IK. It seems to be much more common with Eldar. In my experience, though, that is a fixable problem though, although its the CWE player (and the meta) that needs to fix it.

We used to have a player who would always field in 6th Abby in a LR, a Helldrake, and a DoT DP with all the trimmings, that always got +1 armor save and Iron Arm. By the start of the game. Usually had +1T too. And couldn't wait to field a Lord of Skulls.

Beating that player wasn't hard. That's a lot of points in a 1k game (not sure he was always within points, but I think so). But it wasn't fun.

Winning isn't what makes the game fun. Its having options. Just fielding a list someone can beat doesn't mean they'll enjoy the game. You can have unfun lists in almost any game (would anyone enjoy a game against pure legion? Its an autowin. No point.).

I think its a little harder to make a fun list, but is certainly possible.

One guideline I use that that guy didn't? One box of each. This means 6 or fewer FDs or Warp Spiders. And only one unit.

To say all CWE you've seen has been a problem clearly demonstrates a problem. It does not necessitate that all CWE players - and lists - are a problem.

" it is about still pushing through knowing that you are going to lose models"

Yes, but if your opponent makes you lose 3/4 of your alpha strikers, you're probably toast. I've personally wiped seven units of an UM alpha strike list back in 6th.

" or build a different list"

I'm already NOT using alpha strikes.


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Bharring wrote:
I guess I'm No True Eldar then.

Do you really read anything that says "Parts of the whole aren't X" as "The whole isn't X"?

Do I really come across to most people, especially when i say things like "The Eldar dex is OP", or "They didn't need the buff", as arguing that the Eldar dex is *not* OP? Because I didn't think I was *that* bad at communicating.

Eldar can be very unfun to play against. So can Skyhammer. Or Decurion. Or IK. It seems to be much more common with Eldar. In my experience, though, that is a fixable problem though, although its the CWE player (and the meta) that needs to fix it.

We used to have a player who would always field in 6th Abby in a LR, a Helldrake, and a DoT DP with all the trimmings, that always got +1 armor save and Iron Arm. By the start of the game. Usually had +1T too. And couldn't wait to field a Lord of Skulls.

Beating that player wasn't hard. That's a lot of points in a 1k game (not sure he was always within points, but I think so). But it wasn't fun.

Winning isn't what makes the game fun. Its having options. Just fielding a list someone can beat doesn't mean they'll enjoy the game. You can have unfun lists in almost any game (would anyone enjoy a game against pure legion? Its an autowin. No point.).

I think its a little harder to make a fun list, but is certainly possible.

One guideline I use that that guy didn't? One box of each. This means 6 or fewer FDs or Warp Spiders. And only one unit.

To say all CWE you've seen has been a problem clearly demonstrates a problem. It does not necessitate that all CWE players - and lists - are a problem.

GW is the problem. They're the ones publishing these insanely imbalanced books. The mere fact that my BA can't compete with your B team is unfun to me.

The limits you are putting on your own lists are beyond what you can expect of pretty much anyone else. From what I've seen.

I designed my entire army with the assumption that i would be losing squads per turn and it didn't matter.

For the record the same arrangement got pitched against a BA death company list centred around astaroth the grim - he failed all his charges (i do mean all of them!) and got assaulted by the tech-thralls; next turn the Archmagos and another blob of thralls came into the combat, challenged astaroth and won - i won the game with his remaining 4 guys locked in combat with a blob of ~20 thralls and my Archmagos.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I designed my entire army with the assumption that i would be losing squads per turn and it didn't matter.

For the record the same arrangement got pitched against a BA death company list centred around astaroth the grim - he failed all his charges (i do mean all of them!) and got assaulted by the tech-thralls; next turn the Archmagos and another blob of thralls came into the combat, challenged astaroth and won - i won the game with his remaining 4 guys locked in combat with a blob of ~20 thralls and my Archmagos.

Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Martel,
Wait, Scorpions cut your BAs to shreds?

Have you tried assaulting them? Possibly with an ASM squad?

To say nothing of shooting the choppy. That Boltgun will do more than those Shuriken Pistols at any range.

The ASM will win that fight with ease.

Dark Reapers are only noticeably better than Krak Devs against Jink-capable targets. Otherwise they have about the same output as a unit you consider junk, and much less survivability.

Banshees got a lot more than they should. That said, they're still T3 4+. Again, Boltguns do work.

DAs has been discussed to death. Sure, they'll beat Tacs eventually if you can't force them out of their one potential for victory. But force them to advance (objectives), stay away, or get too close, and they don't survive.

Warp Spiders are broken.
War Walkers with 2xSL are broken. 2xML pays more per ML than Devs with Flak. BLs aren't that far removed from Devs with Lascannons. On an AV10 open topped 2HP frame. Its range and 5++ are the only way it survives.

Wave Serpents should have been nerfed harder. But 3 TL S6 shots at 24" and 2 TL S4, even with Bladestorm, isn't a lot for 110 points. It can do work, but isn't the monster it was.

So... Bring more boltguns if Footdar is kicking your ass? Much of what you're afraid of dies to naked tac squads of the same points.

Ghaz,
Baharoth vs a Warboss.
4 S4 AP3 attacks at I7. You arent dying from that.
The warboss is probably going to win.

Asurmen fares a bit better. For over 200 points you can probably take a Warboss out (4 attacks hit on 3 wound on 4?). With 3W though, the Nob + Boys should finish him easily.

All,
How does saying "Eldar are OP" somehow mean I don't think Eldar, as a whole, are OP?

Look. I don't list tailor. I play against blind opponents. I'm looking to take out boltguns, not put them in. You build me an opponent-neutral BA list and then stack it up against foot aspect warriors. Remember that this list will have to take on Skyhammer, invis grav stars, scatterbikes, WKs, Decurions, Green Tides, and RW lists.So there's going to be zero heavy bolters for sure.

"Have you tried assaulting them? Possibly with an ASM squad?"

I've mostly given up on assault. And I certainly don't touch ASM with a ten foot pole. They are awful.

So my CWE list is more cheesy than my SM list because its more vulnerable to small arms, which you don't want to take?

Bharring wrote:
So my CWE list is more cheesy than my SM list because its more vulnerable to small arms, which you don't want to take?

I can't answer that without seeing your SM list. Although I'm guessing the CWE still has way more offense. Being vulnerable to small arms doesn't matter when the units with small arms are dead.

Exactly.

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
Wait, Scorpions cut your BAs to shreds?

Have you tried assaulting them? Possibly with an ASM squad?

To say nothing of shooting the choppy. That Boltgun will do more than those Shuriken Pistols at any range.

The ASM will win that fight with ease.

Dark Reapers are only noticeably better than Krak Devs against Jink-capable targets. Otherwise they have about the same output as a unit you consider junk, and much less survivability.

Banshees got a lot more than they should. That said, they're still T3 4+. Again, Boltguns do work.

DAs has been discussed to death. Sure, they'll beat Tacs eventually if you can't force them out of their one potential for victory. But force them to advance (objectives), stay away, or get too close, and they don't survive.

Warp Spiders are broken.
War Walkers with 2xSL are broken. 2xML pays more per ML than Devs with Flak. BLs aren't that far removed from Devs with Lascannons. On an AV10 open topped 2HP frame. Its range and 5++ are the only way it survives.

Wave Serpents should have been nerfed harder. But 3 TL S6 shots at 24" and 2 TL S4, even with Bladestorm, isn't a lot for 110 points. It can do work, but isn't the monster it was.

So... Bring more boltguns if Footdar is kicking your ass? Much of what you're afraid of dies to naked tac squads of the same points.

Ghaz,
Baharoth vs a Warboss.
4 S4 AP3 attacks at I7. You arent dying from that.
The warboss is probably going to win.

Asurmen fares a bit better. For over 200 points you can probably take a Warboss out (4 attacks hit on 3 wound on 4?). With 3W though, the Nob + Boys should finish him easily.

All,
How does saying "Eldar are OP" somehow mean I don't think Eldar, as a whole, are OP?

Put this into perspective. Martel is comparing BA units to Eldar units. Sure, boltguns do work, but not as much as you give them credit for. I play Necrons, and I essentially rely on "Bolt guns" to do all my heavy lifting. Footdar has done just as much damage to me as I've done to them. Think about that. Necrons took as much damage from them as they dealt. Against T3 models while shooting bolt guns. And BA are not as durable.

Plus, a little peeve of mine, Dark Reapers are much, much better than Devs. Compared to Krak Devs, they can potentially have better BS (and the Exarch is base BS5, with 2 shots), they can move and shoot, are better against skimmers and Flyers, and have the option of firing more S5 AP3 shots instead if they need versatility. Krak Devs can fire a single S8 shot a piece, or a S4 AP6 small blast. Woooooooo.

(The Exactly was in reference to it not being a forgone conclusion that an unseen CWE list is better than an unseen SM list.)

Martel732 wrote:
Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Couldn't agree more - i was shocked at the outcome - had to console my opponent a bit (younger player) and the failed charge was pretty much the root of what killed him.

edit: i really like the astaroth model and force setup; he would have won if he'd got his charge off i recon.

The fact remains that BA would struggle mightily against Eldar B team units. BA have poor ranged options, yet that's what we're forced to use in 7th. Because assault is terrible for non-TWC, non-Wraiths in most cases. It so happens that scorpions work fine against BA because BA have crap shooting.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Eldar CC list would feature the Phoenix lord who can destroy every Ork CC IC and CHaracter in every duel, every single time. so yeah Im going to say Orks lose.

The funniest part of this is your trying to defend the CWE still even though your defense is "IF I don't take 3/4th of my codex you have a 50/50 chance"

Just admit CWE are broken and are ridiculously OP and not fun to play against.

here here, the eldar codex is in serious need of massive price jumps, i would either jack up prices on most things by at least 8-15% (varying on the unit) and maybe take away their unique magic table entirely or allow them a ration of one spell per army and only available through your warlord (if you take no warlord psyker you may assign it to one other caster). OR i would enact massive statline and wargear changes resulting in serious reform in the way eldar are approached by the playerbase. id expect lots of people to get mad as a result of said changes because some of them would be pretty harsh

alternatively you can keep your CWE book as is but your never getting a new book for at least 1 whole edition and that's only after a review of their state of play at the point in time where we consider issuing a new one, potentially you could be looking at even longer.

the eldar codex is in sorry need of serious humility, every other army has had its fair share of bad books and bad moments in time meanwhile the eldar havent.

Eldar were below average in 5th ed (Guided, fortuned scatter walkers in ruins were still extremely potent) and poor in 3rd before their codex. That's their entire history of not being great.

 SirDonlad wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Couldn't agree more - i was shocked at the outcome - had to console my opponent a bit (younger player) and the failed charge was pretty much the root of what killed him.

edit: i really like the astaroth model and force setup; he would have won if he'd got his charge off i recon.

Random charge length sucks. I'd much prefer some of the Proposed Rules.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Astorath is bad. DC's reliable on successful charges is also a major achilles heel.

Couldn't agree more - i was shocked at the outcome - had to console my opponent a bit (younger player) and the failed charge was pretty much the root of what killed him.

edit: i really like the astaroth model and force setup; he would have won if he'd got his charge off i recon.

Random charge length sucks. I'd much prefer some of the Proposed Rules.

It wouldn't make Astorath good if that changed. And then players could game out spoiling assaults against DC perfectly. Spoiling assault = DC are hosed.


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Bharring wrote:
(The Exactly was in reference to it not being a forgone conclusion that an unseen CWE list is better than an unseen SM list.)

I'm talking about BA here, not SM. SM have access to a librarian who picks his spells, for example. They have plenty of tricks. Their tacs are still worthless, but for them, it turns out not to matter.

Dman137 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.

There should be a tournament where you play 3 games... Once with your army, once with opponent's, and once you flip a coin.

The reactions would be hilarious!

That actually sounds like a interesting idea

to you perhaps, but do you attend large tournaments now? take the LVO for example, im from canada and might be attending the 2016 event, you think i would have any interest spending atleast a grand for the weekend than end up playing some army i dont even know how to play even for one game, no thanks.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The offer of army swap usually shuts down L2P.

There should be a tournament where you play 3 games... Once with your army, once with opponent's, and once you flip a coin.

The reactions would be hilarious!

That actually sounds like a interesting idea

to you perhaps, but do you attend large tournaments now? take the LVO for example, im from canada and might be attending the 2016 event, you think i would have any interest spending atleast a grand for the weekend than end up playing some army i dont even know how to play even for one game, no thanks.

It being a intersting idea has nothing to do with it being a thing that would happen or something I would go to. I go to a lot of big events, warmasters next month, then daboyz. And they both have different comp, and just different way of doing things. As for LVO and events far from home, I'm sure they would post up the comp and rules long before the event took place, so you wouldn't run into the problem of going to that event because you already no it's not your thing.

OP is a troll. Nothing nore nothing less. Maybe TFG troll. Nothing more to see or do here imho. Can this be locked like it should have been 4 pages ago?

 DarthSpader wrote:
OP is a troll. Nothing nore nothing less. Maybe TFG troll. Nothing more to see or do here imho. Can this be locked like it should have been 4 pages ago?

Right.
One locally good army list doesn't make a summer.

Martel732 wrote:

It wouldn't make Astorath good if that changed. And then players could game out spoiling assaults against DC perfectly. Spoiling assault = DC are hosed.

Agreed. Not being able to assault after outflank or deepstrike is his biggest problem.

The fixed assault distance thing would make terrain management a new game in itself!