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Looks more like 8 rounds there buddy

Anyways I don't think DA are the problem!

Me neither, but things get said.

Its really hard to look at a unit fairly when the army keeps bashing your skull in.

(DAs bring the Marines down to below 0.5 on turn 8, which means just as likely to have finished them as not, but the EV for when they do finish them is later - when the number reaches 0.)

We live in Canada dude!

I was referring to this, you counted R3 twice.

Bharring wrote:
R3
5.9x1x(2/9) kill 1.3 DA
4.8x2x(4/27) kill 1.4 Marines

R3
4.5x1x(2/9) kill 1 DA
3.8x2x(4/27) kill 1.1 Marines

But yes I know what you mean!

Bharing,
I was referring to the numbers I ran without cover, not yours. I didn't run yours to the end.

"Hate" for the eldar codex has been a thing since 2nd ed.

It's not going to go away until GW learn how to write a balanced game - which they won't do, because it would cost them SM sales.

The problem is that GW don't release all the Codices at once at the beginning of every edition.

Playtest EVERY codex against eachother and suddenly balance will be achieved simply because they wrote all the codices at the beginning rather than finishing the last 6th Codex right before 7th.

 chromedog wrote:
"Hate" for the eldar codex has been a thing since 2nd ed.

It's not going to go away until GW learn how to write a balanced game - which they won't do, because it would cost them SM sales.

Ironic, because SM were awful in 2nd.

Bharring as far as the beast mode CC characters in the Eldar dex, how about the crazy CC one that gives up 1 attack to disarm her opponent, forces them and everyone nearbye to drop 5 Init and WS or whatever hte hell it is. SO now my ork boyz are hitting on 5s and wounding on 4s, and unless i gave my Warboss MA he doesn't get a save against your IC.

Nobody is saying every Eldar player is a donkey cave, I have said countless times that the best Player i have ever played against/with was an Eldar player, and at the same time the biggest WAAC TFG player was an Eldar player.

The point Im trying to make is that their is ZERO comparison between the Ork Codex and the Eldar Codex, your basic troops kills my boyz before they get close enough to do anything,. your ranged attacks out range mine with more accuracy and power and your Wraiths destroy every walker in my army easily, Including the stupidly Over priced Stompa.

All im asking is for you to openly admit that your codex is COMPLETELY OP compared to any Codex prior to its release.

Just ban them, and there'll be no more hate, end of story. It's not like they were overpowered only this edition. They've been overpowered and attracting the worst kind of powergamers for 7 editions straight. My gaming group banned them outright, caused 3 terrible people to leave, but everyone's happier.

The other gaming group nearby has heavily restricted them, but there's a lot of whining, so last I heard, a ban is incoming.

Eldar players, a lot of this is due to your stuck up, entitled mentality for refusing to see things as it is. Your army was always overpowered. Your army is not hard to use experts only. It is easy cheater mode, babby's first army mode. You only have yourself to blame as to why no one will play you.

kburn wrote:
Just ban them, and there'll be no more hate, end of story. It's not like they were overpowered only this edition. They've been overpowered and attracting the worst kind of powergamers for 7 editions straight. My gaming group banned them outright, caused 3 terrible people to leave, but everyone's happier.

The other gaming group nearby has heavily restricted them, but there's a lot of whining, so last I heard, a ban is incoming.

Eldar players, a lot of this is due to your stuck up, entitled mentality for refusing to see things as it is. Your army was always overpowered. Your army is not hard to use experts only. It is easy cheater mode, babby's first army mode. You only have yourself to blame as to why no one will play you.

You and your gaming grp sound like a bunch of babies. Im only interested in competative games and tournies and guess what, your going to run into eldar at some point. Nothing wrong with fun beer and pretzel gaming but lets not pretend there isnt excellant counters to everything in the eldar codex in the space marine toolchest

The only people in here with legit beefs are ork players, DE, and guard players since they have minimal tools to kill the wraithknight. BA are crappy aswell obviously, but todays warhammer IS a game of allies if you accept that or not is up to you, bring a skyhammer as allies. Instant dead knight from a single grav dev squad

stopcallingmechief wrote:
The only people in here with legit beefs are ork players, DE, and guard players since they have minimal tools to kill the wraithknight. BA are crappy aswell obviously, but todays warhammer IS a game of allies if you accept that or not is up to you, bring a skyhammer as allies. Instant dead knight from a single grav dev squad

So anybody who plays fluff, fun or budget lists loses?

What you're basically saying is that people have to bring in stuff to deal with only maybe one or two opponents. An army shouldn't have to lean on allies as a crutch. Requiring them to make the game winnable means the codex is, in fact, OP.

I dont design the codexes. Email GW your complaints, i just recognize the reality of todays warhammer and allies

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
So anybody who plays fluff, fun or budget lists loses?

In a lot of tournaments that's pretty much the reality.

Personally, I'd rather save most of my money to go on tropical vacations where I get to catch killer waves and hang out with cool people and bikini babes. If you'd rather dedicate your time and money to embracing the stress and heartache of "competitive 40k", that's on you

stopcallingmechief wrote:

kburn wrote:
Just ban them, and there'll be no more hate, end of story. It's not like they were overpowered only this edition. They've been overpowered and attracting the worst kind of powergamers for 7 editions straight. My gaming group banned them outright, caused 3 terrible people to leave, but everyone's happier.

The other gaming group nearby has heavily restricted them, but there's a lot of whining, so last I heard, a ban is incoming.

Eldar players, a lot of this is due to your stuck up, entitled mentality for refusing to see things as it is. Your army was always overpowered. Your army is not hard to use experts only. It is easy cheater mode, babby's first army mode. You only have yourself to blame as to why no one will play you.

You and your gaming grp sound like a bunch of babies. Im only interested in competative games and tournies and guess what, your going to run into eldar at some point. Nothing wrong with fun beer and pretzel gaming but lets not pretend there isnt excellant counters to everything in the eldar codex in the space marine toolchest

The only people in here with legit beefs are ork players, DE, and guard players since they have minimal tools to kill the wraithknight. BA are crappy aswell obviously, but todays warhammer IS a game of allies if you accept that or not is up to you, bring a skyhammer as allies. Instant dead knight from a single grav dev squad

You can add Tyranids to that. The most competitive builds you see for Tyranids are five Flyrants and the combined fire power of them doesn't even take two wounds off one WK. They also don't have access to allies in certain tournaments that prohibit CtA.

Of, course roll some good Psychic Powers, or add some other units to deal with it and it's not as big of a problem. Still the best way they used to deal with the 240 version was to tarpit, an option robbed by Stomp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
So anybody who plays fluff, fun or budget lists loses?

In a lot of tournaments that's pretty much the reality.

Personally, I'd rather save most of my money to go on tropical vacations where I get to catch killer waves and hang out with cool people and bikini babes. If you'd rather dedicate your time and money to embracing the stress and heartache of "competitive 40k", that's on you

Omg, yes this so much. There is a life, one far less grim than the tabletop implies

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
So anybody who plays fluff, fun or budget lists loses?

In a lot of tournaments that's pretty much the reality.

Personally, I'd rather save most of my money to go on tropical vacations where I get to catch killer waves and hang out with cool people and bikini babes. If you'd rather dedicate your time and money to embracing the stress and heartache of "competitive 40k", that's on you

Beaches are overated. I do enjoy my every other year trip to Amsterdam though. I also question howmuch money some people are paying. The warhammer recasters are everywhere. I know the FW items from them have made my clubs apoc games alot cooler

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
So anybody who plays fluff, fun or budget lists loses?

In a lot of tournaments that's pretty much the reality.

Personally, I'd rather save most of my money to go on tropical vacations where I get to catch killer waves and hang out with cool people and bikini babes. If you'd rather dedicate your time and money to embracing the stress and heartache of "competitive 40k", that's on you

I was talking more about in clubs full of TFGs, but yeah, I suppose a holiday is always nice.

kburn wrote:
Eldar players, a lot of this is due to your stuck up, entitled mentality

The irony here is so thick you'd need a meltagun to cut through it.

The hate isn't going anywhere, simply because, it is deserved.

The problem is people hate on Eldar players which isn't right. Not to say a TFG Eldar Player doesn't deserve to get hated on, but so do all TFG players of any army. But take a list that is not OP, then its game on.

And it is easy to recognize the OP stuff. Pretty much anything that when you take more than one of you subconsciously giggle evilly inside.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

You and your gaming grp sound like a bunch of babies. Im only interested in competative games and tournies and guess what, your going to run into eldar at some point. Nothing wrong with fun beer and pretzel gaming but lets not pretend there isnt excellant counters to everything in the eldar codex in the space marine toolchest

The only people in here with legit beefs are ork players, DE, and guard players since they have minimal tools to kill the wraithknight. BA are crappy aswell obviously, but todays warhammer IS a game of allies if you accept that or not is up to you, bring a skyhammer as allies. Instant dead knight from a single grav dev squad

Ok, we're babies. Enjoy playing no one outside tournies because of your obnoxious attitude and your broken army.

Also, quit hiding behind your easy-mode auto-win army, and acting like you're hardcore because you go to tournies. You winning a tourney is a moot point. The broken-ness of your army won it for you, with absolutely no skill nor ability on your part. If you were a true competitive player, you would play warmahordes, which my gaming group also does, because it actually is challenging and fair.

Have fun steamrolling through your tournies. Deep down, both you and I know your ability has 0 input on your wins. Probably the lack of ability for your losses, since you must be pretty crap to even lose with an easy-mode army.

kburn wrote:
your obnoxious attitude

Yours is far more obnoxious. "Oh wah, an annoying player built his army so it'd be more powerful than mine! BAN THEM ALL FOR EVERYONE, NO MATTER WHAT, NO EXCEPTIONS BECAUSE THAT WOULD INVOLVE THINKING!"

If I did the equivalent, I'd ban almost every single army, what with me playing Sisters, one of the, if not the single, least powerful armies in the game right now.

 Melissia wrote:

kburn wrote:
your obnoxious attitude

Yours is far more obnoxious. "Oh wah, an annoying player built his army so it'd be more powerful than mine! BAN THEM ALL FOR EVERYONE, NO MATTER WHAT, NO EXCEPTIONS BECAUSE THAT WOULD INVOLVE THINKING!"

If I did the equivalent, I'd ban almost every single army, what with me playing Sisters, one of the, if not the single, least powerful armies in the game right now.

Please, I doubt you even play Sisters. If you did you would realize that saying they are the least powerful (which is what you were trying to say yes? your wording was a little poor there w/ single) is dishonest hyperbole. You sound like one of those people who assume less played = weaker.

Sisters do better than Orks, Nids, and IG, AT LEAST. If we include mini-dexes we got Militarum Tempestus, Assassins, Inquisition, Harlies.

Sisters are a solid but neglected line of models, kind of like Slaneesh in AoS, becuase GW sees no market for the models there.

 Melissia wrote:

kburn wrote:
your obnoxious attitude

Yours is far more obnoxious. "Oh wah, an annoying player built his army so it'd be more powerful than mine! BAN THEM ALL FOR EVERYONE, NO MATTER WHAT, NO EXCEPTIONS BECAUSE THAT WOULD INVOLVE THINKING!"

If I did the equivalent, I'd ban almost every single army, what with me playing Sisters, one of the, if not the single, least powerful armies in the game right now.

I find a lot of people underestimate Sisters of Battle. Nobody expects them because they're so rare. I'd say their mid-tier (along with Martel's long-suffering Blood Angels). About the only real counter they have to Eldar are rending Heavy Bolters. And Martel will be glad to tell you how bad those are, especially for Blood Angels!

Seriously, this thread has gone on long enough. Next time, it'll be Tau or Necrons or maybe even Space Marines. It just goes on and on...

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Beaches are overated.

Oh you did not just say that!

https://vimeo.com/112414644

 Quickjager wrote:
Please, I doubt you even play Sisters

I'd laugh more, but I already pulled a muscle the first time I looked at your post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Seriously, this thread has gone on long enough. Next time, it'll be Tau or Necrons or maybe even Space Marines. It just goes on and on...

That's really my point. I've been on dakka for more than four years, and played 40k for another half-decade before that. People are acting like this is some kind of new situation, as if they've shut their memories off and live in denial of how it was before.

I don't think there's enough frustration about the imbalance in the game.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:
Outside of game mechanics fluff wise Eldar and Necrons should be the most powerful armies to face... if you are familiar with fluff and the old ones and what not. In game terms yeah they should be hard to fight per fluff. They fought in the war of heavens....

Every faction can make any excuse it wants to be "hard to fight". Sure the Eldar & the Necrons fought the War in Heaven. Chaos however is the physical manifestation of the mind, the Imperial Guard is the largest fighting force in the galaxy that outnumbers the Eldar by tens of millions to one, the Tyranids invade without number having shown only the tiniest fraction of their size so far, etc.

When GW made armies "hard" to face like "they should be" in the past, they've killed entire editions, like with Chaos Daemons in 7th edition WHFB.

In real life as example German Tiger Tanks would be very hard for Sherman Tanks to fight and thus you had to adapt and try to figure out how to fight them.

While true, there's something that's not being touched on here...namely that there were only about 1,300 Tiger tanks produced, 1,700 if you want to include the Tiger II, and spread over both the Eastern and Western fronts, facing ~160,000-200,000+ Shermans, T-34's, KV & IS tanks, M10/18/36 tank destroyers, Pershings, ISU's, etc, with more T-34's alone produced between 1941 and 1945 alone than Germany made AFV's of all types from 1933 to 1945 (including SPG's, TD's, and assault guns and early model tanks like Panzer I's and II's).

War games are not balanced

They should be, that's why they're games. and not realism simulators, and they have mechanisms for balancing such. If you look at WW2 games that have TIgers and Shermans, a Tiger is a much larger proportion of a force than a Sherman. To use Flames of War as an example, a Tiger Tank is something like 230pts, a T-34 with hindered soviet doctrine is like 40, a Sherman with is like 50?

and if they were i guess that is fine but would lack a realism in some aspects in my opinion. 40k is not balanced, it has structure and options etc.

40k's problem (and really GW in general) is that they're not interested in trying to make the game balanced.

I agree with what you say and what not here. I am saying that fluff wise the Eldar and Necrons and even other factions should be strong in their given ways... I understand it is a game and not a simulator ( i wouldnt play it if it were would be boring lol). I realize that Tigers were limited and broke down a lot etc. On skirmish level game like 40k a Tiger vs 5 shermans would maybe be a victory for the Shermans depending on various factors in the game just as in real life and would at best end simular to Fury. It was an example to show a tough OP unit vs an opponent who has a worse unit to deal with it... yeah shermans were produced in mass and why they were good so to speak (strength in numbers and manufacturing) but that did not help them in the field vs the dreaded Tiger in most cases... overall in the big picture it would but I am speaking skirmish 40k like non Apoc battle

I once played in a weekly progressive league during the beginning of 6th. When the newest book was CSM and when eldar was good, but probably the most tame I had ever seen the army.

We had an eldar player that just rocked the competition each week. I think he only took two losses during the entire league. One of which was me, but that was also back when heldrakes edged just over that OP line that prevented anyone with a conscious from bringing more than one into a friendly game. Every week he would bring a list that edged pretty hard to cheesy, not unbeatable, but harder than most. One day I brought up the harshness of his lists to him, and what he said stuck with me.

"Eldar are cheaty space elves. You can play a more fluffy list if you would like, but it just isn't going to win. To play as cheaty space elves, you need to bring cheaty space elf things."

The sad thing is, this makes sense. I've only played since 5th edition, but from what I hear, Eldar have always been top of the pecking order from pretty much the beginning. To the point that it is EXPECTED for the eldar player to have an upper hand in games. I really feel bad for players who just play eldar because of the fluff or aesthetics of the army since it sounds like it has been the goto cheese army for a long time.

So it makes sense for all the hate. After 7 editions of having to build specific counters for eldar armies for the competitive scene, people are just done dealing with them and would rather just not play against them anymore. It just does not feel fair to play against Eldar. They are the cheaty space elves after all. Cheaters aren't fun to play against and in any other game where people cheat, they get banned. By no means are eldar players cheaters, it just feels that way considering every fight seems like an uphill battle from turn one. They're faster, hit harder, more synergized psychic powers, and have more durability via evasion. They're like fighting a boss that spams the same super move every turn.

For people like me, who can only really invest in one army. Being CSM, Eldar are one of the main reasons I just can't play. At the FLGS, I'm either playing against eldar or against someone who had to crank their list past eleven because they may have to play against eldar. Both of which mean I may as well pack my bag and go home and beat my head against the wall for the next four hours. I'll still get the same headache and overall sense of disappointment.

While I wait for my codex rotation to hit, I only hope it can beat eldar. If it can't, It's not going to beat anyone who can beat eldar. Literally, I have to measure my book by the fact whether it can or cannot beat one army. This determines whether I'll be able to find enjoyment playing this game for the next two years or not. When your book is on the side of the line that brands you a loser for two years, Your either going to quit playing, become bitter, or refuse to play any army on the other side of that line. Thus alienating a player base.

It has just finally hit a point where the fatigue of the game has gotten to most players. Sure, SOME armies can beat eldar, but they tend to get just as much hate themselves. So the people who can't fit that niche are just fed up with dealing with them in their own ways. Most taking up a toxic stance on the game as a whole by banning eldar, necrons, and certain formations. Alienating the playerbase and shaming any who play those armies and formations, and generally being aggressive and bitter towards others that think differently. For examples, see pages 1 through 9.

I personally think the recent Eldar book ruined 40K, Which probably puts me on the side of the wall with the bitter and hateful. But i didn't choose to be on this side, It got built when that book got released. I just had the misfortune of being branded a loser until my next codex drops. Then MAYBE I get to play with the "winners" again. Until then, i get to play in the dirt with the other "losers".

TLDR; Either you play eldar, someone hated as much as eldar, or you lose.

Eldar have not been "ermagerd da mots op tihng aver" for seven editions. That's ridiculous hyperbole, and goes against what actually happened-- Eldar have not always been on top, unbeatable every single edition, time after time. Making gak up doesn't make it real, even if it makes you feel better. Every edition's had the armies that have been complained about, and people always say this edition is worse so that they have an excuse to complain harder.

Every single edition. And they always say "WELL THIS TIME IS DIFFERENT!" but the only proof that's ever provided is hyperbole. Yawn. Crying wolf, louder and louder...

Eldar have been top 5/7 editions, of the 2/7 they were not they were still top 4. Melissia you have yet to add anything constructive to this beyond calling people liars or off their chair. So tell me the top army for each edition.

Frankly its kinda sad how you've fallen to tossing out "yea I've been on this forum for half a decade, people always complain ignore them cause I say so".

people always complain.

The question are they right? In Eldar people have been right to complain for a looooong time. Kinda like 5th and Grey Knights.