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Hmm iv always known scrubs as a synonym for noobs not necessarily some one that complains and are set in there ways.

Honestly think its more this elitist attitude we need to deal with. saying L2P and or L2 pay instead of shepherding your play group to play in a manner that helps everyone instead of the greybeards and or the fat cats.

edit: Though i do think that both Elitist and complaining noobs and in general bad attitudes are cancer to any gaming community.

the_scotsman, I agree with you that it definitely is a problem on the internetz. People act and talk like there's *nothing* they can do. Except their is. They can buy more models. They can field the same lists they complain about.

But...

That's not the heart of the issue in 40k. The heart of the issue is that the way people have fun differs from one person to another. When people complain that "X army is broken! I'll never play them!" it may sound like they're complaining that the game balance is askew, but really they are complaining that the games they've had against people who use that army are not the games they were expecting or hoping for.

Let's use cars as an example. I think you know what a Lamborghini is, but if not, it's a really, REALLY nice car. High-end fancy "look at me I amz the richness". I'm assuming you've also seen F1 racing cars - those speeding torpedoes of a car. They're super expensive as well (obviously, being custom-built to win races). Well, I might complain that I don't like my current car. It's not strong enough, not enough horsepower, and a terrible top-speed. The "40k scrub" may buy the Lamborghini instead of the F1 Racing Car, but still complains that they can't win races with it. They could buy an F1 racing car, but they don't want to drive that around town, since the F1 racing car is just not really what they want. Instead, they wish that other people wouldn't buy F1 racing cars. Even though they may complain about top-speed and horsepower, the reality is that they want is a nice and pretty car, and like seeing lots of nice pretty cars.

The same problem can happen in reverse. The "newb" looks at all the nice Lamborghinis, but the "pros" and the internetz says that unless they buy the F1 racing car, they're throwing their money away. That's not true either; because the "newb" may want the vision sight and sensation of the Lamborghini more than the F1 racing car. There's nothing wrong with people that like racing cars, but this newb isn't that kind of person.

Of course, many people show up to friendly races with their F1 racing cars, which is unfortunate, not because Lamborghini's aren't able to win (a good enough Lamborghini racer would beat a bad enough F1 racer), but because neither racer communicated what they really wanted prior to the race. They both expected the other person to bring what they themselves thought of as fun.


The 40k scrub doesn't want to play the same game that the 40k "pro" might want to play. Maybe for them it's the visual experience, or the idea of moving their infantry horde, or the sensation of rolling a bucketfull of (mostly useless) dice. They're not wrong for wanting this - it is a game after all. But at the same time, the 40k scrub can't expect the 40k pro to want to play that game either. It's got to be a two-way street. Communicate the game you're looking for. Don't just show up with armies expecting a good time, because you might not get it.

JinxDragon wrote:
Ask yourself this one question:
Are you enjoying yourself?

If No, change your play style or try another game entirely
If Yes, continue having fun regardless what others think

QFT. Honestly, the quoted post is the only question you should be asking yourself. You shouldn't be concerning yourself about how you can beat an army that's considered OP. You shouldn't be concerning yourself with the possibility of changing armies to be able to handle the army that's giving people trouble. You shouldn't be concerned about bolstering your army just for the sake of beating that one OP army. You should be having fun, and that's all. If you are leaving more frustrated than when you arrived or are going over your list daily trying to figure out how to take down that one army, then maybe it's time to give the game a break. Your models aren't going to be useless when you get back into it. Maybe try AoS if you think you might prefer it. If not, you could really change things up and go to trading card games (there are a ton of them out there, take your pick).

I do not expect to win every game I play. And, I may lose each and every time I play against someone who plays Eldar and has the hundreds of dollars to spend on a top tier list. Me, I'm gonna keep on playing my Dark Angels and having a blast, and I have a feeling that I'll win games as well. But, that's not the point of playing. The point of playing this game is fun not winning or losing.

SG

@ Thyhadras.

I think I may have made my point poorly due to the confusing use of double negatives.
I am not saying that people, like myself, who criticize game balance refuse to come up with counters. I'm saying that despite coming up with counters, those counters are so heavily tailored, and/or still don't work the majority of the time.
Personally, the fact that I complain about the massive range of power between many units and armies, does not mean I don't try and think of new builds and counters. My history on here is evidence enough of thinking outside the box rather than just investing in grav cents, scatter bikes or WKs. Same can be said for the majority of people who are irritated with the complete lack of game balance.
I've been positive about units that are really underappreciated in my time such as flamestorm baals in the last dex, dreadclaws, renegade rapiers, ravens, CSMs etc, I HAVE positivity with many units others don't rate as highly. Positivity is my usual go-to attitude. However with BA, I cannot wish my assault marines to catch and kill scatter bikes, I cannot influence my DCs fight against Wraiths with my positive thoughts, I cannot strive with positive vibes to make my opponents D-scythes or grav weapons to roll 1's to wound against my SG. They are just utterly outmatched in the current meta and no amount of positivity, change of list or change of tactics adjusts that inbalance and inability to compete... My renegades on the other hand, walk over all and every opposition.

Poly, thanks for the clarification, and I agree that there are power differences that exist, and that is unfortunate I have played numerous armies and have seen it first hand, so please know that I really do understand (I know it is going to sound crazy but in my experience marines get pretty well ran over by competitive orks unless marines are running what most people call cheesy).

However, does the complaining help?

Or is it possible that the complaining leads to more negativity which in turn changes into the negativity turning into an avalanche? (I only ask because my WWP counselor asked me one time and putting some thought into fixed a lot of what I was perceiving to be problems in my life)

I see what you are saying, but to counter that, to fix a problem (a problem this severe only the rule writers can fix), you must first accept there is a problem. Now I'm not saying GW will accept that there is any problem but bringing it up does increase that likely hood even if only to a small extent.
An example of this is the old BA dex, the three main things BA players asked for on forums for years were; - Cheaper Jps for DC, - Cheaper Sanguinary Guard, - EW Dante hitting at initiative. We actually got all that (alongside a silly amount of nerfs) in the new codex, so either it was a massive coincidence or somebody at GW was actually listening (and thought to troll all BA players by giving them what they asked for but taking away sooooo much more... but that's a seperate issue).

I'm having my best friend over for the weekend. We are going to drink beer/rhum and eat pretzel/chips and we are going to play at least 5-6 game. It's going to be fun as hell. He can win some, I can win some. Sometime you get a bit salty, sometime you become a bit taunty. At the end of the wekeend, we will both says: man that was one great 40k weekend!

And thats how I kick the scrub: right in the nuts.

The problem with GW is pretty evident... they do absolutely minimal fething play testing... and then they are very reactionary, but they do not react with proper FAQ's that make major changes... they instead put out a better army next time and your codex either gets nothing or gets nerfed in the next release...

So yes, GW does have a problem, but it is something that we as a community could fix... talking to the people that you play against is the first step and hopefully I will be playing BA versus scatter bike with one or two wraith knights next weekend so I can give some far superior insight (I think the knights are going to prove to be problematic but I do not foresee a problem with the scatter bikes). However, I will concede that there is literally nothing SM or BA that I do not own (cept centurions, because I am old school and will not buy them) multiple of. So whereas I am going to run a bike heavy army with minimum troops and cheese the BA list out as much as possible, which many can not do, it is going to be done to prove that the BA codex is not useless

" So whereas I am going to run a bike heavy army with minimum troops and cheese the BA list out as much as possible"

BA have been doing that since 5th ed. That's not "cheesing", that's standard MO.

"but I do not foresee a problem with the scatter bikes"

Have you ever played against 25+ of those things?

the_scotsman wrote:
True. But the attitude of "my army is weak/the enemy army is strong/their tactics are unfair/there's nothing I can do to counter this/my dice are crap and it's causing me to lose/whatever" is just a variation of the same kind of Scrub/tilt mentality you see in Starcraft.

Where does the attitude of "I am super smart and obviously have exhausted every tactic at my disposal and there's nothing I can do" come from in 40k? How do you stop it?

It does not help that almost without exception those who make these sort of threads are usually playing power builds and/or armies and who often trot out the tired "old L2P".

Its GW's fault in creating such massive imbalance in armies, its the players fault when they exploit all possible loopholes to win at all costs...........and then cry L2P

Figured martel would reply with negativity...

No martel this will be the first time playing against that many of them in their new book... and it is going to be just fine, and I am confident that I can build a bike army that will take it (by the way my comment was regarding the fact that I own 40 space marine bikes and 7 attack bikes... not something most would have). But do I need to base my thought on my chances of winning against it based on statements made by players who are not me? Should I base my chances of winning on players opinions I have never played or seen play?

Furthermore, Martel, you opinion on the game is so slanted that I would not use your experience even if I watched you play. Not to be rude, but when someone is convinced their codex can not fight its way out of a wet paper bag I gain my own experience and then go from there...

Difference is that if play this game and they crush me purely on build with no regards to dice rolls or any thing else then I will reverse my opinion (which you already assume is going to happen), however, like I said I will most likely video and document the game so that if I win then (albeit will not change you opinion I am sure) hopefully other BA players can get some hope which seems to be sorely lacking...

This suggestion isn't going to help the 'BA isn't that bad' side of the argument, but I strongly recommend that you take an IK as your LoW. I'd also insist that a Typhon Seige Tank is vital against scatbikes (although watch out for the WKs D shooting with it). Also put every single ounce of firepower into the serpent carrying the wraithguard.
Talking to your opponent works when playing against good friends. This is not always the case though. Plus the whole point is you shouldn't have to after paying hundreds of pounds for rules.

"Not to be rude, but when someone is convinced their codex can not fight its way out of a wet paper bag I gain my own experience and then go from there... "

Go for it. BA are hell against unoptimized Tyranid lists. Does that count as a paper bag?

"e fact that I own 40 space marine bikes and 7 attack bikes..."

RW would do it much, much better.

"Should I base my chances of winning on players opinions I have never played or seen play? "

No, I suppose not. I'm not asking you to really. Just appreciate where I'm coming from vis a vis the Eldar.

"(albeit will not change you opinion I am sure)"

It will be interesting to see what happens, that's for sure. If your opponent forgets to shoot you and turbo boosts into assault range, that's not going to be horribly convincing, no.

poly the problem there is that GW does not have a comp system or a classing system. In auto racing there are different classes.... because no a stock Honda Si is not going to fare well against a Corvette Z06...

Which leads to the question would a handicap system work in our game?

its the players fault when they exploit all possible loopholes to win at all costs...........and then cry L2P

You mean... reading a codex and making sensible choicei s exploiting a loophole? I don't play Eldar, but realising Scat bike and wratiknight are good doesn't require you to ''exploits all possible loophole''. Having a Decurion force being unkillable doesn't require you to ''exploit all possible loophole''. Parking a Shroud next to Jinking Blacknight for a sweet 2+ re-roll cover is hardly ''exploiting all possible loophole''.

I assure you martel I do... like I said I played BA in 3rd edition and the transition to 4th edition literally pushed me out of the game for a couple years...

However, I also see that there was no need for me to ever concern myself with that (however, I ran in a lot of local tournaments) as I have gotten older I have developed different goals in the hobby (like building an entire chapter)...

Also white scars would do the bike thing better than BA and normally is what I run, however, for this scenario I have to use BA because if not then I am running a "top tier army v the top tier army" and proving nothing other than that SM is FAARRR superior to BA which seems to be the general consensus...

Martel, I wish you were around here, because I think I could do a lot to help your positivity, because me and the guys I play with talk a lot about aspects of the game that people bitch about, and for casual play we make it our goal for every one to have fun, and honestly, most of our games are super fluffy (minus the tactical marine thing... they are terrible and no one uses them)

As someone who has been called a 'Scrub Player in a Scrub Group' because we don't play optimized list I can say that we are still having fun.

As for the 25+ Scatter-Bike List, I would play them Once, and only Once probably for a few reasons
>Most people that join out group who want to play the 'Super Competitive Optimized' list do not like playing with us because we don't want to go that route.
>We would do it once to say we did and then just refuse the next time saying we did not have fun last time.

Panda, I think they were saying that in regards to making the game fun for casual play... there are two styles of play being talked about in this thread...

And yea, if someone is bringing decurion and scatter bike to casual play with out discussing it first then they are being a tool... same way as if I bring my scars fist list...

You just get negative after playing against SM lists that have invis cent stars and BA have no equivalent or counter. In some ways that's more frustrating than Eldar. But Eldar being the list to beat for the better part of two decades is pretty sickening.

I am not sure about the eldar thing... 4th edition really hurt them a lot... literally killed biel tan... and then to top it off in 1997 Wraithguard were 7.95.... that EXACT same model in 2008 was 21.95 for the same medal mold...

(also, seriously it sounds like your gaming group sucks, and you are the only one that wants to play casually)

Thyhadras wrote:
I am not sure about the eldar thing... 4th edition really hurt them a lot... literally killed biel tan... and then to top it off in 1997 Wraithguard were 7.95.... that EXACT same model in 2008 was 21.95 for the same medal mold...

(also, seriously it sounds like your gaming group sucks, and you are the only one that wants to play casually)

Actually, I'm trying to compete. But I have BA. So you really can't tell the difference, I guess. I won a lot in 5th, against a lot of the same people doing the nastiest things they could think of. The GW solution is for me to buy a more competitive list, I know. I'm just not going to give them the money. Ever.

The 4th ed Eldar codex was amazeballs with immortal Falcons.

" your gaming group sucks"

Why does wanting to win suck? Because it's a GW game?

Who gives a gak about how an army played 3 editions ago? 5 editions ago? Last edition?

What's important is how the armies and rules are balanced now that can permit as many players as possible to have as much fun with the game as possible out of the box.

Yes, local groups can House Rule 'til the cows come home, and if that works for them, great, but a lot of people play with relative strangers, and so have only what is in the books, as published, to work with. And if those rules are broken? Well, they are, and that will leave some players to do little more than pick models up off the table, turn after turn, with no real chance to do anything about it.

And this is where GW fails as a design company. They don't understand how their own game is played, or how their own rules (as published) work. You can see this in their own bat-reps. The GW staff "forge the narrative" by making up the rules as they play, counter to what is presented in the book you're reading the bat-rep in.

Which, really, begs the question as to why we're paying for rules at all if the studio is telling us to make it up as we go along.

This is not meant to be sarcastic or insulting to anyone, but just an observation that I made back in early 6th.
Maybe the GW staff is playing the 'Game Right' and a lot out there are playing it 'Wrong'.

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is not meant to be sarcastic or insulting to anyone, but just an observation that I made back in early 6th.
Maybe the GW staff is playing the 'Game Right' and a lot out there are playing it 'Wrong'.

Uniformity of experience is important for a game community. GW staff bat reps are worthless for a reason.

 Mr Morden wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
True. But the attitude of "my army is weak/the enemy army is strong/their tactics are unfair/there's nothing I can do to counter this/my dice are crap and it's causing me to lose/whatever" is just a variation of the same kind of Scrub/tilt mentality you see in Starcraft.

Where does the attitude of "I am super smart and obviously have exhausted every tactic at my disposal and there's nothing I can do" come from in 40k? How do you stop it?

It does not help that almost without exception those who make these sort of threads are usually playing power builds and/or armies and who often trot out the tired "old L2P".

Its GW's fault in creating such massive imbalance in armies, its the players fault when they exploit all possible loopholes to win at all costs...........and then cry L2P

My example post used my Harlequin/DE army. Both are considered extremely low tier. The closest thing I have to top tier is Orks. Maybe Mechanicus.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is not meant to be sarcastic or insulting to anyone, but just an observation that I made back in early 6th.
Maybe the GW staff is playing the 'Game Right' and a lot out there are playing it 'Wrong'.

Uniformity of experience is important for a game community. GW staff bat reps are worthless for a reason.

That actually has nothing to do with the outside community.

They made the game to be played one way. Now if the Community does not play it 'Their Way' that is not their fault.

I would play anyone who bring anything from their book. If after 1 or 2 games I haven't kill a single unit or manage to have a 'decent' defeat, I would ask them to tone down their list. If they comply, rince and repeat the process.. If they don't comply, I find someone else to play.

I know it's annoying to face overpower army, and I know that someone who keeps complaining is annoying. But For the people who are tired about the negativity, they have to understand that this forum is the perfect place for this. As it's the perfect place for positivity. I never post in a forum where everybody think the same way on everything (that would be a boring forum).

If you are tired of people negativity, or you think they have a ''scrub'' attitude because they feel the game is just super imbalance, I suggest you move on to other section of the forum, such as Tactics, Background or Battlerep. Your opinion is welcome here of course, I'm just saying if you 'cant endure more negativity' that you should find something else.

Nobody get out the same thing from warhammer 40k. Some people have a nice meta (I think I have a nice meta. People tweek their list to perform well, but don't usually use multiple cads or ally to spam or whatever) but some people face more competitive meta (where everybody is a TFG and you have to perform to actually enjoy the game).

Both meta are enjoyable, but it's easier to enjoy a competitive meta if all the army were balance, which they are not. So for people who invested a lot of $$$ in an army, to hear: L2P or just wait for your next codex or switch army can get REALLY frustrating. The best solution is to find another Meta, but that's not always possible for people in certain area.

I guess my final though on the matter is: When you get overly frustrated by the game, maybe it's time to re-focus your hobby for a couple weeks or month. Paint more. Take a break of the game. Play another fun system while proxying with your 40k unit.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is not meant to be sarcastic or insulting to anyone, but just an observation that I made back in early 6th.
Maybe the GW staff is playing the 'Game Right' and a lot out there are playing it 'Wrong'.

Uniformity of experience is important for a game community. GW staff bat reps are worthless for a reason.

That actually has nothing to do with the outside community.

They made the game to be played one way. Now if the Community does not play it 'Their Way' that is not their fault.

Its certainly bad for a "Games" workshop. as a company that doesn't really do any sort of market research supposedly.

the only real feed back they get is at Open days where only super fans really go or there stores which tend to be devoid of everyone but super fans or people that have no choice. so its no real wonder that they only really cater to them and not "Pro" type players. ether that or the vast majority of super fans dont give two gaks about the balance of the game which while helping everyone doesn't matter to them.

Nice terminology.

It's been exceedingly rare that I've felt this way. My first few encounters with full void shield network gunlines is one. I more often encounter it from other people who can't find a way or can't afford the way to answer certain aspects of certain lists. I have no problem upping my game if I need to but I usually don't.

To answer the question though, communication. If sh*t gets out of hand I'll bring it up, even if its on my end. I don't like having bitter rage quit games. I like equal matches where two players are both enjoying the dynamics whether its cheese on cheese or 2 fluff bunnies. I do both pretty well.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is not meant to be sarcastic or insulting to anyone, but just an observation that I made back in early 6th.
Maybe the GW staff is playing the 'Game Right' and a lot out there are playing it 'Wrong'.

Uniformity of experience is important for a game community. GW staff bat reps are worthless for a reason.

That actually has nothing to do with the outside community.

They made the game to be played one way. Now if the Community does not play it 'Their Way' that is not their fault.

It has everything to do with it if the bat-reps they are giving you in the rule book are being played in ways counter to the rules in the book you're holding.