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Poly Ranger wrote:
What's stopping you being tabled easily if 80% of your forces are in the air?

Not much, which is why I went back to the drawing board on my initial idea (would have only started with 4 MSU units on the table, so susceptible to turn one alpha tabling. If I can figure out a way to stick a fortification in it might be more viable, but then it's a matter of trying to figure out which would be the best one for my list: imperial bunker, sky shield landing pad, void shield generator, bastion, etc. It's just gotta keep 5 Immortals and a Lord safe until the planes start hopefully arriving on turn 2)

Really only daemons and the five flyrants (which never won a GT) are the only two viable lists.

 skoffs wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
What's stopping you being tabled easily if 80% of your forces are in the air?

Not much, which is why I went back to the drawing board on my initial idea (would have only started with 4 MSU units on the table, so susceptible to turn one alpha tabling. If I can figure out a way to stick a fortification in it might be more viable, but then it's a matter of trying to figure out which would be the best one for my list: imperial bunker, sky shield landing pad, void shield generator, bastion, etc. It's just gotta keep 5 Immortals and a Lord safe until the planes start hopefully arriving on turn 2)

You could take a unit of lychguard I suppose with a cryptek with staff of darkness and lord with orb of rerolls (my dex is at home and I've forgotten the actual names). Invis one turn and 4+ rp rerolls the next turn. That'd be pretty solid. But it would eat into the points for your flyers... There's the harvest too. I think crons would be the only army that is durable enough to maybe pull this off, even then, I'd say only the buffed up lychguard and rp wraiths would manage it.

Hmm, shield Lychguard + Orkian for the invuln rerolls IS pretty stupid resilient. Sticking them behind some LOS blocking terrain might be enough to ensure they survive till turn two when the air force starts to arrive.
But then Wraiths are stupid fast and resilient, so might be a good accompaniment to the Tomb Blades, both to jump on objectives and to go after/tie up things that will be a pain.
Perhaps I might not need that fortification after all...
(only question then is, do I want to drop a Doom Scythe or a Night Scythe full of Immortals to free up the points? 7 is still a ridiculous amount of flyers for the majority of armies to deal with, even the FMC lists. Just gotta decide whether I want a 4th ObSec troops unit or a 4th super killy plane more)
...
*scribble,scribble*

or
I think I like the Wraith one better. More units on the table at the beginning of the game. Less chance of getting tabled on turn one.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I don't know. Dakkajet shoots 9 shots at Str6 AP4 at BS3 instead of the Ork BS2 and can shoot 12 shots during Waaaaaagh! It's going to take something down by volume of dice. I wish our bomma had more bombs because it's one of our few Armourbane weapons and it's in a big blast rofl but it needs more bombs. Burna jet I want to try. It has more ammo and it's one of our few Ignores Cover models. The others are templates so having the ranges skorcha weapons would be nice to clear out ruins and stuff. I intend to give it a try.

So assuming it comes on turn 2, and assuming you waaagh!!!, and assuming you're never left in a bad position where you can't shoot a good target thanks to being a zooming flyer, and assuming you never get hit or have to jink, you shoot 39 bs3 s6 shots before the game might end on t5 with the jet being non-scoring. With twinlinked, that means 29.25 hits, and 24.35 ap4 wounds against t4. If you found a squishy target, great. In fact, that could really pound some skitarii. That's only 8.13 dead marines/eldar bikes though. (Assuming they aren't getting more than standard protection. They could be shrouded and jinking or have fnp!) Shooting at the same wraithknight all game only yields 1.08 wounds. I don't think either of those armies would have an issue with simply ignoring the flyer.

As for how effective flyer spam is, it really depends on the missions. In ITC, I would never run a supersonic flyer ever. Being able to drop late game and score or contest after thinning enemy forces is important.

So that's just 1 Dakka Jet - and why I'm really excited to try running the Armada ( 3 Jets, a Burna Bommer and Blitza Bommer or whatever) - use the armada to support the Greentide or Horde formations ( Waaagh every turn) and maybe it works well? The thing I'm worried about is actually being able to fit all of them somewhere. I think that's a genuine concern - although I find it silly that you could ever not place a flyer. Its base really shouldn't matter... its flying lol.

Also the above is an Ork flyer example. Potentially the worst flyer in the game from what I gather - those valk things strike me as being cruel. And could just switch to hover late game when they need to score, correct?

As a 3rd ed guy returning to the game I just like this idea because it's novel to me and the models are cool as hell.

Poly Ranger wrote:
What's stopping you being tabled easily if 80% of your forces are in the air?

The fact (for guard at least) you keep you're units in the ground and you're just swapping out fast attack for more expensive and heavier fast attack in the air. Keep heavy support raining down from behind on the first turn to keep you're units alive then start contesting when the planes come in. Valkarie/vendettas are perfect for this.

 skoffs wrote:
Hmm, shield Lychguard + Orkian for the invuln rerolls IS pretty stupid resilient. Sticking them behind some LOS blocking terrain might be enough to ensure they survive till turn two when the air force starts to arrive.
But then Wraiths are stupid fast and resilient, so might be a good accompaniment to the Tomb Blades, both to jump on objectives and to go after/tie up things that will be a pain.
Perhaps I might not need that fortification after all...
(only question then is, do I want to drop a Doom Scythe or a Night Scythe full of Immortals to free up the points? 7 is still a ridiculous amount of flyers for the majority of armies to deal with, even the FMC lists. Just gotta decide whether I want a 4th ObSec troops unit or a 4th super killy plane more)
...
*scribble,scribble*

Spoiler:

+++ # New Cron Air 2 (1849pts) +++

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1099pts) ++

+ HQ (50pts) +

Lord (50pts) [Staff of Light]

+ Troops (860pts) +

5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]
5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]
5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]
5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]

+ Fast Attack (189pts) +

3x Tomb Blades [Shadowloom, Shield Vanes, Gauss Blaster] (63pts)
3x Tomb Blades [Shadowloom, Shield Vanes, Gauss Blaster] (63pts)
3x Tomb Blades [Shadowloom, Shield Vanes, Gauss Blaster] (63pts)

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (750pts) ++

+ Formation (750pts) +

Canoptek Harvest (270pts)
Canoptek Scarabs [3x Canoptek Scarab]
Canoptek Spyder [1x Canoptek Spyder]
Canoptek Wraiths [4x Canoptek Wraith]

Deathbringer Flight (480pts) [3x Doom Scythe]

or

Spoiler:

+++ # New Cron Air 3 (1847pts) +++

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1367pts) ++

+ HQ (240pts) +

Lord (120pts) [Resurrection Orb, The Veil of Darkness, Warscythe]

Orikan the Diviner (120pts)

+ Elites (150pts) +

5x Lychguard [Hyperphase Sword & Dispersion Shield] (150pts)

+ Troops (860pts) +

5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]
5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]
5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]
5x Immortals (215pts) [Night Scythe]

+ Fast Attack (117pts) +

3x Tomb Blade [Shield Vanes, Gauss Blaster] (60pts)
3x Tomb Blade [Shadowloom, Gauss Blaster] (57pts)

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (480pts) ++

+ Formation (480pts) +

Deathbringer Flight (480pts) [3x Doom Scythe]

I think I like the Wraith one better. More units on the table at the beginning of the game. Less chance of getting tabled on turn one.

Yeh the wraith list looks stronger.

I was thinking about the flyer spam idea last night and realised that Chaos could do it amazingly! The Unending host is even more durable than Nectons in non KP games and has so much scoring!

Unending host
Demagogue with master of the horde
4 Disciples with granade launcher

Platoon
15 renegades

15 renegades

15 renegades

Platoon
15 renegades

15 renegades

15 renegades

10 mutants

10 mutants

CSM
Warpsmith

10 cultists

10 cultists

Helldrake
Baleflamer

Helldrake
Baleflamer

Helldrake
Baleflamer

Fire raptor
Reaper battery, balefire bombs

Fire raptor
Reaper battery, balefire bombs

Fire raptor
Reaper battery, balefire bombs

1850pts

6 of the best flyers in the game. On the ground you have 44 chaff that when they are dead, they are dead, but also a further 90 who respawn on a 2+ and outflank, as well as the 2 HQ. So the opponent has to kill the 44 in an early turn, then have the fire power to kill 90 models plus 2 HQ in one turn in order to table, otherwise they will just keep coming back, again and again. And what army can kill that many troops AND deal with 6 av12 flyers?

^
whoa.

Uhh, might be time to start play testing some of these ideas against some of those top lists?

Someone else needs to for my list. I own a lot of CSM and Renegades but not 1 Helldrake, and only 2 ravens to proxy for fire raptors.
Definitely let us know how that Wraith based list fairs though.

Drop a heldrake and take a fortification with a coms relay to ensure your flyers come in and some infantry stay guarded. After that you might have an OK list, I'm just getting flashbacks of the guy who brought 4 heldrakes to a tourney and lost because they got demolished as soon as they appeared. No amount of good chaos flyers is going to be other faction's great shooting/AA.

The durability of the ground troops shouldn't be much of an issue because if any of the 15 strong squads get killed, they re-appear (with outflank) the next turn on a 2+.
The point you make about the shooting, I agree - even 3 helldrakes and 3 raptors don't put down as much firepower as the top lists these days. The fact they are flyers helps maintain durability over the conventional ground firepower for the long game somewhat though.
The fact they are flyers is also the downside however and am completely with you for the need of a comms relay. There would be nothing worse than rolling three or four 1's or 2's on T2, which definitely isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

Heldrakes are just not worth spamming with the nerf.

Sheit27 wrote:
I was thinking about doing the exact same type of thing! something like

CAD

FA
-Stormtalon:skyhammer Missiles
-Stormtalon:skyhammer Missiles
-Stormtalon:skyhammer Missiles

HS
-Fire Raptor:AutoCannon
-Fire Raptor:AutoCannon

Formations
-Storm Wing
-Stormraven: TL:LC, MM
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer
-Storm Wing
-Stormraven: TL:LC, MM
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer

This costs exactly 1650 points, leaving 200 points for an HQ and troops.

2 fire raptors, 7 talons, 2 ravens. It's quite a bit of firepower and I don't think anyone will have enough dedicated AA to handle 11 fliers.

Seems like an auto lose on turn 1 vs any alpha strike list, 200 points of models isn't much

FMC lists are viable, flyers are not.

Some formats (cough ITC) for no reason gave FMC all the survivability of flyers as a house rule for no real reason, so these lists do even better in tournaments then normal play- since most tournaments use ITC rules..

The reasons why Flyers are not as good is quite simple.

Reserves.

Most armies that are top tier have very little points invested in reserves, and often the reserve units are units where it is fine if they come in later to do something (hello mawlocks), or they are guaranteed to come in at a time where you can plan for them (drop pods).

When you take a normal army and put a lot of the points into reserves, you are removing the ability to develop a strategy for that specific battle before you setup. You do not know if your model x is going to arrive on turn Y, so you can't guarantee you can move to stop/threaten something taking an objective/relic/support another unit. You are removing your ability to actually make tactical decisions, and putting your tactical decisions up to an extra chance, ie not the chance of moving to the objective/killing something/not dying, but adding the chance your model is not even in the game.

FMC can start on the table and do not have to deal with this penalty.

Also you won't make any friends with these types of lists if that is important to you.

blaktoof wrote:

Some formats (cough ITC) for no reason gave FMC all the survivability of flyers as a house rule for no real reason, so these lists do even better in tournaments then normal play- since most tournaments use ITC rules.

Why do you think this? I don't really see any modifications with regards to FMC's in the ITC format. They are running FMC's as purely RAW. The modifications that they do have (nerf to Invisibility, nerf to re-rollable 2+'s) actually make FMC's easier to deal with than in other formats (like Nova or the ETC).

ninety0ne wrote:

Sheit27 wrote:
I was thinking about doing the exact same type of thing! something like

CAD

FA
-Stormtalon:skyhammer Missiles
-Stormtalon:skyhammer Missiles
-Stormtalon:skyhammer Missiles

HS
-Fire Raptor:AutoCannon
-Fire Raptor:AutoCannon

Formations
-Storm Wing
-Stormraven: TL:LC, MM
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer
-Storm Wing
-Stormraven: TL:LC, MM
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer
-Stormtalon:Skyhammer

This costs exactly 1650 points, leaving 200 points for an HQ and troops.

2 fire raptors, 7 talons, 2 ravens. It's quite a bit of firepower and I don't think anyone will have enough dedicated AA to handle 11 fliers.

Seems like an auto lose on turn 1 vs any alpha strike list, 200 points of models isn't much

This list might do better for you:

Saint Tylus Battle Force

Chaplain Cassius-130pts

4x Tyrannic War vets with Drop Pod-150pts

3 x Stormtalon with skyhammer missile launcher-345pts
3 x Stormtalon with typhoon missile launcher- 390pts

Iron Hands CAD
Techmarine with Conversion Beamer-85pts

2 x Scout Squad with Land Speeder strom w' Multi-melta- 210pts

2x Fire Raptor Gunship- 450pts

Skyshield Landing Pad w' Ready for take off- 80pts

Total 1840.

Poly Ranger wrote:
What's stopping you being tabled easily if 80% of your forces are in the air?

Combat Drop. Elysian are really one of the few lists that can do all flyers justice. Given that most of them can deepstrike and hover, they can be somewhat more easily positioned then others, and you can start with 0 ground forces to lose to alpha strike. Due to deepstrike on your troopers, and grab-chute insertion you can still make a go of contesting. Grab some servo skulls, and a comms array, and you're golden.

Plus, 180 punisher cannon shots is ridiculous, if you ever wanted to try that.

Thats a good shout too.