The Space Marines as Superman and Master. Why Space Marines should force humanity to serve them.

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**Furyou Miko**

Hey, maybe I embellished the details a little, but the facts are there: The Admech, four chapters of Marines and a human crusade failed to invade the Ecclesiastical Palace until the defenders surrendered and let them for reasons completely unrelated to the siege.

**Martel732**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time in M.36, a very bad man by the name of Goge Vandire took over the Imperium.

He enslaved women, taxed planets to death, and hurt a lot of people.

The Adeptus Mechanicus didn't like this very much, so they went on an epic quest to bring the famous hero, Sebastian Thor and his billions-strong army of heroic soldiers to help them, but even the great Confederation of Light wasn't powerful enough to break through Vandire's Terran defences. So they went and begged the Space Marines for help.

The Ultramarines said: "It's not my problem, I have a war in Maccrage to fight."

The Salamanders said: "It's not my problem, I have civilians to save."

The Space Wolves said: "Haha, those idiots, have fun. Not my problem, have a drink." (and then they got drunk, which is why alcohol is bad).

And so it went, until they came to the Imperial Fists. The Setinels of Terra new their duty, and came to help. They brought their friends with them, three other full chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Black Templars, largest and most fanatical of the chapters. The Fire Hawks, cursed by ill-luck and dedicated to the defence of the realm. The Soul Drinkers, heroic warriors used to close-quarters and bloody fights.

These four great chapters of the magnificent Space Marines, alloyed with the heroic Confederation of Light, an army billions strong, and the technologically advanced Adeptus Mechanicus layed siege to the Ecclesiastical Palace on Terra. The seat of Imperial power... and they failed.

Vandire's fortress stood fast against their might. The greatest minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus could not figure a way in. The most brilliant siegemasters of the Adeptus Astartes could not force entry. The teeming hordes of human heroes could not stop Vandire's guns.

The one day, the shooting stopped. The doors to the palace opened, and a girl walked out. Armoured, and wielding a silver-bladed power sword, she held high the head of the villainous Vandire.

The armies parted before her, and she marched between them to the command post where the invading forces planned their losing war. Behind her came the palace's defenders, all three thousand who yet lived. Women, some as young as thirteen, in battle-proud armour.

"I," the woman announced to the waiting leaders of the attacking force, "am Alicia Dominica. I hereby offer the unconditional surrender of the Ecclesiastical Palace, and present to you the head of the arch-traitor, Goge Vandire."

All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.

I guess they forgot they could drop an asteroid on the palace.

**AngronCultist**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time in M.36, a very bad man by the name of Goge Vandire took over the Imperium.

He enslaved women, taxed planets to death, and hurt a lot of people.

The Adeptus Mechanicus didn't like this very much, so they went on an epic quest to bring the famous hero, Sebastian Thor and his billions-strong army of heroic soldiers to help them, but even the great Confederation of Light wasn't powerful enough to break through Vandire's Terran defences. So they went and begged the Space Marines for help.

The Ultramarines said: "It's not my problem, I have a war in Maccrage to fight."

The Salamanders said: "It's not my problem, I have civilians to save."

The Space Wolves said: "Haha, those idiots, have fun. Not my problem, have a drink." (and then they got drunk, which is why alcohol is bad).

And so it went, until they came to the Imperial Fists. The Setinels of Terra new their duty, and came to help. They brought their friends with them, three other full chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Black Templars, largest and most fanatical of the chapters. The Fire Hawks, cursed by ill-luck and dedicated to the defence of the realm. The Soul Drinkers, heroic warriors used to close-quarters and bloody fights.

These four great chapters of the magnificent Space Marines, alloyed with the heroic Confederation of Light, an army billions strong, and the technologically advanced Adeptus Mechanicus layed siege to the Ecclesiastical Palace on Terra. The seat of Imperial power... and they failed.

Vandire's fortress stood fast against their might. The greatest minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus could not figure a way in. The most brilliant siegemasters of the Adeptus Astartes could not force entry. The teeming hordes of human heroes could not stop Vandire's guns.

The one day, the shooting stopped. The doors to the palace opened, and a girl walked out. Armoured, and wielding a silver-bladed power sword, she held high the head of the villainous Vandire.

The armies parted before her, and she marched between them to the command post where the invading forces planned their losing war. Behind her came the palace's defenders, all three thousand who yet lived. Women, some as young as thirteen, in battle-proud armour.

"I," the woman announced to the waiting leaders of the attacking force, "am Alicia Dominica. I hereby offer the unconditional surrender of the Ecclesiastical Palace, and present to you the head of the arch-traitor, Goge Vandire."

All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.

The Imperial Fists have a history of failure and relying on other Chapters and Legions to get things done.

Once a upon a time, 9 Space Marine Legions finally recognised the true gods. They rebelled, sliced up your Emperor pretty good and brought the Empire to its knees. Tzeentch had other plans and the loyalist somehow managed to push the legions back into the Eye of Terror.
After these events Roboute Guilliman divided the loyalists Legions in small ineffective Chapters, so that if one Chapter turns, it wouldn't cripple the Empire. True Story.

**Theolla**

Logistically, there just aren't enough loyalist Space Marines to run the entire Imperium. They're too busy fighting the constant threat of xenos/traitors/demons to bother with the bureaucracy of the Imperium.

One thing I've always found interesting about the Space Marines is that they are very much outsiders to the system they are trying to protect. They don't really have much of a place within it. I think space marines don't seem interested in having humanity serve them because there's nothing humanity could offer them that the space marines would really want, anyway. I think the 500 worlds of the Ultramarines are an exception, but that's a unique trait of that particular chapter.

**Ashiraya**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Hey, maybe I embellished the details a little, but the facts are there: The Admech, four chapters of Marines and a human crusade failed to invade the Ecclesiastical Palace until the defenders surrendered and let them for reasons completely unrelated to the siege.

I can assure you, if Vandire for some reason had Astartes bodyguards who then turned on him, he would not have fared much better.

Only, they would never have bought his gak to begin with.

**master of ordinance**

Bloody hell, ladies and gentlemen I present to you the stereotypical Space Marine player and his attitude in the form of the OP.

This is why SM players are looked down on. One of the reasons anyway.

**Ashiraya**

master of ordinance wrote:
Bloody hell, ladies and gentlemen I present to you the stereotypical Space Marine player and his attitude in the form of the OP.

This is why SM players are looked down on. One of the reasons anyway.

Oh, go away with that attitude. I do not think anyone is interested in hearing how terrible you think SM players are for the 1,000th time, especially not after telling you equally many times how that stereotype is BS.

The SM players you have at your local place are not representative of the world, and you should not see them that way either.

But I suppose understanding that is above the mental capacity of an IG player. =)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Spoiler:

As a side note, I just realised I confuse Swastakowey and Master of Ordinance pretty much constantly.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Look, everyone knows the true masters are the Necrons.
You should all head towards your nearest Bio-transferance station.
The first 1000 "applicants" get a free pet scarab drone.

**the Signless**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Look, everyone knows the true masters are the Necrons.
You should all head towards your nearest Bio-transferance station.
The first 1000 "applicants" get a free pet scarab drone.

I would trade my sentience for a pet scarab drone in a heartbeat.

To the OP: You kept using Übermensch, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

**jwr**

Ashiraya wrote:

Astartes are faster, tougher, stronger and mentally superior to mortal men. However, they are needed in the field, not back with the people.

That's the whole point. Astartes have better things to do than waste their time lording over the rest of humanity. That's why the administrata of the Imperium exists. What glory is there in being an administrator? The Astartes have a very simple deal with the rest of the Imperium: Don't get in our way, protect our geneseed tithe, push us arms and munitions, and we will destroy the xeno and heretic threats to humanity the IG can't handle.

OP: I'm surprised nobody called you on your incorrect description of Starship Troopers. The government described is nationalist, but not a socialist dictatorship. The premise is based on the franchise is not valued if it is not earned, and those who earn it based upon service to the group will vote, and therefore govern, in the best interest of the group rather than themselves. There's nothing "dictatorship" about it. The 40K Imperium has nothing in common with the ST universe. Even the military is not comparable to the IG, since there are no conscripts and no Commisars. There's no Ecclisiarchy (RAH detested organized religeon). The only thing genetically modified are dogs. You can't even compare the ST Mobile Infantry to the Astartes, since the ST humans are just highly trained, and then, only at the age of majority and voluntarily. You could compare MI suits to power armor w/ jump packs. You might, if you stretch it, compare the bugs to nids. That's about it.

**Spetulhu**

Theolla wrote:
I think space marines don't seem interested in having humanity serve them because there's nothing humanity could offer them that the space marines would really want, anyway.

Except for recruits. Without normal humans to test for compatibility and make marines of there's no new Space Marines.

Some Chapters undoubtedly think like the OP, having nothing but contempt for baseline humans. But even they have to acknowledge the need to preserve humanity.

**chaosmarauder**

As a chaos player I voted YES...because that is exactly what CSM are trying to do.

Codex Astartes and splitting of the legions into chapters was meant to prevent this exact thing.

**jeffersonian000**

Martel732 wrote:
saithor wrote:
Read some David Weber and John Ringo, they actually do tend to pay more attention to logistics and the mechanics then others. Maybe a little too much, but I like that kind of stuff.

David Weber is one of the worst authors I have ever read. He made up physics so space battles would mirror Napoleonic ship battles. I wouldn't trust him to teach an 8th grade science class.

Weber did not make up any space physics, all of his battles follow Newtonian physics. The fictional technology he added are reasonable given our own current understanding on how gravity and relativity works. His earlier novels referred to these issues on a tactical level, while his later novels dealt more with strategic and logistic issues. However, no one here can help you understand that, as it does involve some basic knowledge in physics to grasp why his battle scenes are fundamentally correct. Weber use to write background material for the Starfleet Battles table top war game.

Ringo also has a very good grasp on relativistic warfare, as seen in his Troy Rising series, which paints a pretty good picture on what the Imperium does wrong. His Legacy of Aldenata series shows the practicalities of power armored warfare, and the problems of integrating with combined arms warfare.

As to Astartes and their ability to rule over humans, Astartes are humans. They are born to human mothers (when not cloned), have human fathers (occasionally Eldar fathers, but that's another thread), and are augmented with biological and cybernetic implants. Astartes are unable to procreate more Astartes, because any children they might father would be human, not Astartes. In fact, what makes them Astartes can best be compared to a parasitic or viral infection that must be implanted in order to produce a seed that needs further growth before being re-implanted in a new host. To say that Astartes have any right to rule is to say that a parasite growing in your body has the right to rule (toxoplasmosis).

So no, Astartes should not inherently rules humanity. However, if humans decide to uplift their leaders to transhumance via becoming Astartes in order to maintain a stable governance, that would be a human decision, not an Astartes decision.

SJ

**Martel732**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
saithor wrote:
Read some David Weber and John Ringo, they actually do tend to pay more attention to logistics and the mechanics then others. Maybe a little too much, but I like that kind of stuff.

David Weber is one of the worst authors I have ever read. He made up physics so space battles would mirror Napoleonic ship battles. I wouldn't trust him to teach an 8th grade science class.

Weber did not make up any space physics, all of his battles follow Newtonian physics. The fictional technology he added are reasonable given our own current understanding on how gravity and relativity works. His earlier novels referred to these issues on a tactical level, while his later novels dealt more with strategic and logistic issues. However, no one here can help you understand that, as it does involve some basic knowledge in physics to grasp why his battle scenes are fundamentally correct. Weber use to write background material for the Starfleet Battles table top war game.

Ringo also has a very good grasp on relativistic warfare, as seen in his Troy Rising series, which paints a pretty good picture on what the Imperium does wrong. His Legacy of Aldenata series shows the practicalities of power armored warfare, and the problems of integrating with combined arms warfare.

As to Astartes and their ability to rule over humans, Astartes are humans. They are born to human mothers (when not cloned), have human fathers (occasionally Eldar fathers, but that's another thread), and are augmented with biological and cybernetic implants. Astartes are unable to procreate more Astartes, because any children they might father would be human, not Astartes. In fact, what makes them Astartes can best be compared to a parasitic or viral infection that must be implanted in order to produce a seed that needs further growth before being re-implanted in a new host. To say that Astartes have any right to rule is to say that a parasite growing in your body has the right to rule (toxoplasmosis).

So no, Astartes should not inherently rules humanity. However, if humans decide to uplift their leaders to transhumance via becoming Astartes in order to maintain a stable governance, that would be a human decision, not an Astartes decision.

SJ

"The fictional technology he added are reasonable given our own current understanding on how gravity and relativity works"

We'll agree to disagree. He's terrible and awful at science.

**Nomeny**

So what you're asking is why don't all Astartes turn to Chaos? I figure it's like cancer; either you die, or eventually you get cancer.

**Gamgee**

The Greater Good welcomes you all into its folds since your average Space Marine player thinks themselves superior to their own subjects.

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

We'll find a way to make use of all of you. No matter how great or lesser you might be. No matter the Xeno race. Will it be glamorous? Nope. Better than Mr. Ubermensch over there.

**Martel732**

Actually, the descendants of Sanguinius don't suffer from this as much as you might think. We've got some general rage issues, though.

**ServiceGames**

According to 40K lore, The Emperor is actually the epitome of human perfection. His sons (the Primarchs) are the next closest thing. The Astartes (Space Marines and Terminators) are the next best thing after the Primarchs.

If we are talking the epitome of human perfection, The Emperor has already forced humanity to serve him. That said, he was *very much* against people worshiping him at all.

If we are talking about the Astartes, then no. The expeditions that set out to make humanity serve The Emperor (become compliant), and by extension, them is what eventually lead to the Horus Heresy.

They should definitely be servants and not be served to make sure things don't get out of hand again.

SG

**jwr**

Spetulhu wrote:
Theolla wrote:
I think space marines don't seem interested in having humanity serve them because there's nothing humanity could offer them that the space marines would really want, anyway.

Except for recruits. Without normal humans to test for compatibility and make marines of there's no new Space Marines.

Some Chapters undoubtedly think like the OP, having nothing but contempt for baseline humans. But even they have to acknowledge the need to preserve humanity.

Well, there's a difference between humans and humanity. Humans, you can look at individuals, cities, planets or even whole systems. Thus, trillions of humans are nothing compared to the defense of humanity. So, it's not like Astartes look down on humans. They just realize that humans are disposable, even by the planet-load.

**DorianGray**

There comes a moment after a person is made into Astartes he realises that he is a superior being to humans.

Superior beings shouldn't take orders from his inferiors. They should be the ones ruling over them. Imagine if an talking ant gave you orders. You would probably crush it.

Replace the High Lords (after disposing of them) with say Helbrecht or Magnus Calgar as an absolute dictatorship. One supermen to rule all mere humans. The codex astartes no longer should be applied.

People keep saying there are too few space marines but after a quick strike rebellion by say loyalist chapters all working together and overthrowning the human government on Terra through drop pod assaults they could force more space marines by forcing more humans into them and indoctrinating them.

Then it would be a society of supermen and slaves. Citizens and 2nd or 3rd class citizens.

**Vaktathi**

DorianGray wrote:
There comes a moment after a person is made into Astartes he realises that he is a superior being to humans.

In terms of physical ability? Sure. In terms of mental abilities, intelligence, education, etc? Not necessarily.

Superior beings shouldn't take orders from his inferiors. They should be the ones ruling over them. Imagine if an talking ant gave you orders. You would probably crush it.

The gulf between human and Space Marine is not what a human is to an Ant. Likewise, if my function is some sort of logistical function, well, maybe the Ant knows a thing or two I don't

A Space Marine being stronger, faster, tougher, etc has no bearing on their ability to command, or, more importantly, rule.

In most instances, Space Marines make for very poor rulers. Most loyalist chapters command backwards, feudal worlds that barely sustain themselves and the Chapters are sustained by outside resource delivery and the AdMech. When Space Marines run off on their own and "rule", it's almost without except as pirates and warlords.

Replace the High Lords (after disposing of them) with say Helbrecht or Magnus Calgar as an absolute dictatorship. One supermen to rule all mere humans. The codex astartes no longer should be applied.

Why? What do Helbrecht and Calgar have in the "ruling an empire" department that the High Lords don't? I can think of a lot the High Lords would have that the Space Marines would not.

People keep saying there are too few space marines but after a quick strike rebellion by say loyalist chapters all working together and overthrowning the human government on Terra through drop pod assaults they could force more space marines by forcing more humans into them and indoctrinating them.

And yet every time Terra has been attacked by Space Marines, their attacks failed. They've never been successful in such before.

Then it would be a society of supermen and slaves. Citizens and 2nd or 3rd class citizens.

That's what the Imperium already is...

Let's not forget that the High Lords are no normal humans either, often with extensive genetic & cybernetic modifications of their own, centuries of experience, vast resources, and their own impressive combatants.

Besides, Space Marines aren't even the epitome of advancement. Imperial Assassins are, man for man, far more dangerous, capable, and powerful than even a Space Marine. The Adeptus Custodes even moreso. If we're going by sheer physical power here, why not have them rule over the Space Marines?

**CrashGordon94**

Some individual high-ranking Marines might be fit for these sort of leading roles but they'd be the exceptions, not the rule. Not to mention I suspect that if Marines are better than the High Lords at their job it's more likely because the latter suck at their job than anything else.

DorianGray wrote:
Replace the High Lords (after disposing of them) with say Helbrecht or Magnus Calgar as an absolute dictatorship. One supermen to rule all mere humans. The codex astartes no longer should be applied.

Then it would be a society of supermen and slaves. Citizens and 2nd or 3rd class citizens.

I don't have to explain why this is bad, do I?

Nevertheless I'm starting to suspect that this some elaborate way for Dorian to share his fantasy of being dominated by large bald men. I don't necessarily object (even if it's not my kind of thing), but it could do with being a lot less Nazi-ish in that case.

**Melissia**

No. Space Marines do not understand humanity well enough to rule effectively. They can't. So many aspects of the human life are closed off to them.

Space Marines do not know what it is like to be small and terrified human beings, with only the light of the Emperor to see by in this dark galaxy of sin.

**Las**

The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.

**DorianGray**

Las wrote:
The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.

Space battles are not really a big deal in the 40k universe. That's why Space Marines are so important and powerful. Most of the important decisive events and battles happen on the ground. The Navy can't do gak against Space Marines on the ground.

**Las**

DorianGray wrote:
Las wrote:
The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.

Space battles are not really a big deal in the 40k universe. That's why Space Marines are so important and powerful. Most of the important decisive events and battles happen on the ground. The Navy can't do gak against Space Marines on the ground.

Power fist, meet exterminatus.

The space marines' chief function is lightning assault from low orbit. Their fleets are purposefully small, under armoured and meant to be escorted by the IN to ensure that if a chapter goes rogue they pose no significant threat to the imperium. It would be a duck hunt.

There's what, maybe 250,000 marines in the entire imperium? You don't even have to physically fight any of them. Blow up their fleets and strand them on quarantined worlds while they angrily wave their swords at the sky.

**Vaktathi**

DorianGray wrote:
Las wrote:
The whole point of the codex Astartes is to make sure that this entire thing could never happen again. The Imperial Navy alone could bitch slap the space marines right out of the stars.

Space battles are not really a big deal in the 40k universe. That's why Space Marines are so important and powerful. Most of the important decisive events and battles happen on the ground. The Navy can't do gak against Space Marines on the ground.

Space battles are a big deal, they're just not typically covered by most fluff because the big selling tabletop game doesn't concern it.

The Imperial Navy can very much "do gak" against Space Marines on the ground. They can deliver ground troops, fly attack aircraft (all those Thunderbirds, Valkyries, Lightnings, Marauder Bombers, etc belong to the Imperial Navy), and bombard planets with weapons more powerful than even those the Space Marines have access to, such as Nova Cannon.

**TheNewBlood**

chaosmarauder wrote:As a chaos player I voted YES...because that is exactly what CSM are trying to do.

Codex Astartes and splitting of the legions into chapters was meant to prevent this exact thing.

Ironically, it does appear that most of the "yes" votes are from Chaos players.

All hail the OP's master of humanity: Ezekyle Abaddon!

Melissia wrote:No. Space Marines do not understand humanity well enough to rule effectively. They can't. So many aspects of the human life are closed off to them.

Space Marines do not know what it is like to be small and terrified human beings, with only the light of the Emperor to see by in this dark galaxy of sin.

You do have a point. Loyalist marines are too entrenched into their chapter cults and regimented discipline to understand humans. Some Chaos Marines probably hold views similar to the OP's, seeing normal humans as expendable fodder and slaves. Ultimately, only the Chaos Gods truly understand humanity.

**Melissia**

TheNewBlood wrote:
chaosmarauder wrote:As a chaos player I voted YES...because that is exactly what CSM are trying to do.

Codex Astartes and splitting of the legions into chapters was meant to prevent this exact thing.

Ironically, it does appear that most of the "yes" votes are from Chaos players.

All hail the OP's master of humanity: Ezekyle Abaddon!

Melissia wrote:No. Space Marines do not understand humanity well enough to rule effectively. They can't. So many aspects of the human life are closed off to them.

Space Marines do not know what it is like to be small and terrified human beings, with only the light of the Emperor to see by in this dark galaxy of sin.

You do have a point. Loyalist marines are too entrenched into their chapter cults and regimented discipline to understand humans. Some Chaos Marines probably hold views similar to the OP's, seeing normal humans as expendable fodder and slaves. Ultimately, only the Chaos Gods truly understand humanity.

The Chaos Gods understand humanity even less than Space Marines do.

**TheNewBlood**

Melissia wrote:
The Chaos Gods understand humanity even less than Space Marines do.

Foolish Loyalist! Only a dog of the corpse emperor could be so ignorant!

The Chaos Gods are made up of the thoughts, actions, and desires of every sentient species in the galaxy (barring Tau, because Tau are too few and too ignorant of the warp to matter). As humanity is the most populous sentient life form, the majority of the "fuel" for the Chaos Gods comes from humanity.

Individually, the Chaos Gods don't understand humanity as a whole. What they do understand are human emotions and concepts. Honor, hatred, sympathy, fear, ambition, knowledge, desire, sexuality, and more are some of the most important aspects of being human, and what separates humans from animals. You can't condition this out of humans, as Space Marines have repeatedly proven.

While the Chaos Gods don't have humanity's best interests at heart, they are a lot more understanding of the human condition than the Imperial Creed. Why do you think people fall to Chaos in the first place? The Imperium offer nothing in the way of freedom and stifles the individual at the expense of a whole that is massive beyond comprehension. Chaos is for many the only way out of an oppressive system into one that at least offers some hope of power and reward both in this life and in the immaterium.

But enough about Chaos. It has been pointed out that the OP holds beliefs suspiciously similar to those of the traitorous servants of the Great Enemy. Methinks he's about to get a visit from the freindly neighborhood inquisitor.

Quick, to the Eye of Terror! The emperor's lapdogs don't dare follow us there!