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Imagine if there was a precedent in the fluff of SM attempting to conquer the Imperium that we could use to help answer this closet neo-nazi's conundrum. Maybe some kind of "heretical" act against the Emperor in the distant past. That sure would help the discussion.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Bloody hell, ladies and gentlemen I present to you the stereotypical Space Marine player and his attitude in the form of the OP.

This is why SM players are looked down on. One of the reasons anyway.

Oh, go away with that attitude. I do not think anyone is interested in hearing how terrible you think SM players are for the 1,000th time, especially not after telling you equally many times how that stereotype is BS.

The SM players you have at your local place are not representative of the world, and you should not see them that way either.

But I suppose understanding that is above the mental capacity of an IG player. =)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Spoiler:

Just kidding, don't worry.

As a side note, I just realised I confuse Swastakowey and Master of Ordinance pretty much constantly.

Touche good sir

DorianGray wrote:
You guys don't get it. Everyone is beneath the space marine. Eugenics is the future. Biologically superior beings rule and dominate.

The sheer gap between an Astartes and a normal human is so vast that the latter is like another species. Astartes have zero attachment to normal humanity only the super-humanity deserves to lead. Superman over everyone.

The Astartes should just take over the Imperium today because that is what is right and natural. Think of the modern humans and Neanderthals - we killed them all because they were so ugly. Ideally enslaving them would have been better. Humans should serve the Astartes.

Despite the fact that three entire chapters backed up by a legion of Mechanicum laid siege to the Imperial Palace on Terra for over a year and where unable to make ANY headway AT ALL? And said palace was defended by only 4000 mortals within? And the siege only ended because someone inside had the sense to cut the head off the mad senate?

Despite the fact that all in all if the Marines did organise a revolution they would be blasted out of the void because the entire combined might of the Space Marine battlefleets only just equal ONE Imperial segmentum fleet? Despite the fact that they would be put down by orbital bombardments and LEGIONS of Mechanicum and Imperial Guard marching against them on the ground?

And all this is without allowing for internal rivalry and old grudges (of which there are many of both) tearing the alliance apart.

Yeahno, Marines are dead if they try anything like it.

The better question is why any Astartes would entertain the idea in the first place.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
You're evading my question

You're attempting to evade providing evidence for your claim by trying to force everyone else to provide evidence against it. I don't respect that kind of logical fallacy.

You misunderstand.

I assert that Marines have intelligence above normal men, and I provide a quote to back up this assertion.

I am told that this is invalid because it is old. (Not true - content does not automatically get retconned because of its age. Many things have stuck with us since 1st edition.)

I am told that this is invalid because the 'creation of a space marine' text does not refer to any implant that increases intelligence. (Proves that the intelligence is not due to an implant, but does not disprove the actual intelligence change - there's far more to making Astartes than opening his gut and stuffing in some organs.)

I am told that this is invalid because Goto has written his Marines as idiotic, although this was not sourced nor was the relevant passage quoted. (If taken as canon, this only proves that at least some Marines in a specific instance acted foolishly - and as was quoted before, 'Astartes vary in intelligence as do other men'. In addition, Goto's dubious track records that defy the rest of the setting leaves his works in doubt.)

There is no grasping of straws here.

Of course, the correct answer to the topic is in the post above mine.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.

Beings created from the mental energies and desires of mortal creatures in a literal netherworld of the mind

Not really. Slaanesh was created by the Eldar literally fething themselves too hard. The other three were born during the War in Heaven, which took place between Eldar/Orks/Old Ones and the Necron/C'tan. They were not created by human emotion. They feed upon strong human emotions that are similar to those which created them, but that does not mean they understand humans.

But this is getting off topic. Like I said, Space Marines are inherently unqualified to rule humanity well, as they are built and trained not to understand the human condition. Unless you wish them to no longer know no fear?

You are what you eat...just ask the Kroot.


Astartes are not unqualified, they simply a) have better things to do, b) don't want to rule the Imperium and c) only take orders from the Emporer so it's not like humans can overthrow the High Lords and demand a conclave of Astartes take their place. Personally, I think a group which has had all emotions such as fear, hope, greed, avarice purged from them would be entirely suitable. They are the greatest minds, unhampered by base emotion.

Space Marines take orders from the High Lords, too. After all, the High Lords were given their positions by the Emperor, to rule His Imperium. Same way as most modern militaries take orders from their civilian governments.

 j31c3n wrote:
The better question is why any Astartes would entertain the idea in the first place.

If the Emporer made a psychic connection to every living loyal Astartes and told them to?

He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"

 Psienesis wrote:
He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"

Given his relationship with Russ, I don't think the Emperor would be shocked about the wolves telling the Inquisition to get stuffed.

jwr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"

Given his relationship with Russ, I don't think the Emperor would be shocked about the wolves telling the Inquisition to get stuffed.

I think the Emperor would be really annoyed that the Wolves decided to raze Prospero, instead of just arresting Magnus.
Some puppies are gonna get a divine spankin'!

jwr wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
He would probably really want to know why Grimnar thought himself above His command when he said, "Don't get in the way of my Inquisition. I gave them their authority, who are you to question me?"

Given his relationship with Russ, I don't think the Emperor would be shocked about the wolves telling the Inquisition to get stuffed.

Grimnar =/= Russ.

jwr wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The Chaos Gods are alien beings native to a dimension whose denizens cannot truly comprehend our reality.

Beings created from the mental energies and desires of mortal creatures in a literal netherworld of the mind

Astartes are not unqualified, they simply a) have better things to do, b) don't want to rule the Imperium and c) only take orders from the Emporer so it's not like humans can overthrow the High Lords and demand a conclave of Astartes take their place. Personally, I think a group which has had all emotions such as fear, hope, greed, avarice purged from them would be entirely suitable. They are the greatest minds, unhampered by base emotion.

This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.

The galaxy is already a place where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.

Easy there Eugene!

Let's not forget that good old human nature! That gets turned up to 10 as well. I'd rather have the man-children under strict governance thank you. We all know what happened last time the kids got to play unsupervised. Thaaat turned out pretty well right?

Sure Space Marines can be the overlords! Not saying they can't. Its just that you know... Chaos.

DorianGray wrote:


This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.

Ok, have you studied the history of Sparta? Sparta did not work the way most people think it did. Sparta worked, for a time, because it was small place of only a few tens of thousands of people, living in a geographically difficult area. Sparta worked as an isolated enclave, occasionally warring with its other, relatively small, neighbors It was unable to grow or advance, and was overtaken by powers that could do these things, eventually losing its political status to a smaller Theban army before ending up as a tourist attraction for the Romans and eventually simply faded away to nothingness.

That form of government didn't work particularly well.

Yeah, 300 should not be considered historically accurate.

jwr wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
The better question is why any Astartes would entertain the idea in the first place.

If the Emporer made a psychic connection to every living loyal Astartes and told them to?

Okay, and then why would the Emperor do that?

This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.

Dorian... I don't know what distress me the most in your discourse. Your utter ignorance of the 40k background or your dangerous eugenist assertions. Still trying to figure it out...

This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.

Hmmm...

Son, have you ever heard of the bad man called Hitler?

 RazgrizOne wrote:

This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.

Dorian... I don't know what distress me the most in your discourse. Your utter ignorance of the 40k background or your dangerous eugenist assertions. Still trying to figure it out...

What's dangerous about Eugene?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 RazgrizOne wrote:

This. For the good of the imperium the astartes should take over. Rule it as a galaxy wide Sparta where the weak die and everything is geared towards war and survival.

Dorian... I don't know what distress me the most in your discourse. Your utter ignorance of the 40k background or your dangerous eugenist assertions. Still trying to figure it out...

What's dangerous about Eugene?

Think he means Eugenics

I think Furyou was joking.

The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.

You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.

Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.

Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?

Isn't the IoM already a brutal warrior police state?
There's already the imperial tithe, where many worlds must include a percentage of their population (drawn from the Planetary Defense Force, of which there must always be an ample supply) to serve in the Imperial Guard, and it seems you never heard of the judges adeptus arbites.

Also, no culture of any kind? What a riveting setting. Totally not 1 dimensional and uninteresting at all.

DorianGray wrote:
The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.

You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.

Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.

Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?

You mean like the current Imperium's culture, where waging war is second only to worshiping the Emperor?

The fact that Eldar have a culture to tie them together makes them stronger, not weaker. It gives them a sense of place within the group while preserving individual identity, which prevents them from falling to Chaos. If anything, the problem Eldar have is that they are too restricted in their Paths, which gives rise to a tendency in a certain group to overindulge. And Harlequin ballets are a lot more dangerous than you seem to imagine.

As Comrade Lenin pointed out, quantity has a quality all its own. There's a reason the best money on who takes over the galaxy is tied between the hordes of Orks, numberless Tyranids, and the innumerable legions and devotees of Chaos.

Athens is more highly regarded than Sparta among thinking types. They had a culture that formed the basis for later Greek and Roman culture, and created the prototype for modern democracy. Sparta may have ruled during the era of the Thirty Tyrants, but Athens regained its independence. Only a crippling plague and the arrival of a certain Macedonian put an end to an independent Athens. Sparta may have been strong in their own little Poloponessus, but they needed allies to conquer Athens. When those allies deserted them. Sparta lost almost all its strength. With the coming of Alexander, Sparta found someone who didn't need to fight them in the typical Greek style of small skirmishes. He just outmaneuvered and overwhelmed Sparta, and made them subordinate to his new Hellenistic monoculture.

DorianGray wrote:
The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.

You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.

Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.

Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?

Gaah, you tricked me into coming back with this. For sake of bloody heck, 300 is not an accurate representation of anything! First off, Spartans only made up around 1/4th of the greek forces. Thebes and I think Rhodes each had contingents of troops fighting that each outnumbered the spartans. And "corrupt decadent Athens" won the battle that actually won the war. You want to know why the Spartans were revered? Because someone made a popular movie about them. There are defintely other fighting cultures out there that probably deserve as much attention. How about the Nepalese Gurkhas, who in WW2 snuck into German camps, slit the throats, and came out with the cut-off ears to prove it. And they still do stuff like that today. So enough with the Spartan worship, I doubt they were any better than let's say the Swiss mercenaries of the Medevial periods, English longbowmen, Genevosan Corssbowmen, Soviet Partisans, the before-mentioned Gurkhas, Napeleon's armies. I have more respect for the ragtag russian millitia that fought the Teutonic Knights at the Battle of Lake Peipus. Which is the perfect counter-example to your stupid argument. Some of the best men the Teutonics had to offer, well-armed and armoured, most of them ending up drowned by a bunch of peasants in a lake. To heck with Heavy Armor when me and my twelve friends are dragging you off your horse so I can bury a dagger in your throat.

 saithor wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.

You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.

Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.

Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?

Gaah, you tricked me into coming back with this. For sake of bloody heck, 300 is not an accurate representation of anything! First off, Spartans only made up around 1/4th of the greek forces. Thebes and I think Rhodes each had contingents of troops fighting that each outnumbered the spartans. And "corrupt decadent Athens" won the battle that actually won the war. You want to know why the Spartans were revered? Because someone made a popular movie about them. There are defintely other fighting cultures out there that probably deserve as much attention. How about the Nepalese Gurkhas, who in WW2 snuck into German camps, slit the throats, and came out with the cut-off ears to prove it. And they still do stuff like that today. So enough with the Spartan worship, I doubt they were any better than let's say the Swiss mercenaries of the Medevial periods, English longbowmen, Genevosan Corssbowmen, Soviet Partisans, the before-mentioned Gurkhas, Napeleon's armies. I have more respect for the ragtag russian millitia that fought the Teutonic Knights at the Battle of Lake Peipus. Which is the perfect counter-example to your stupid argument. Some of the best men the Teutonics had to offer, well-armed and armoured, most of them ending up drowned by a bunch of peasants in a lake. To heck with Heavy Armor when me and my twelve friends are dragging you off your horse so I can bury a dagger in your throat.

I agree (with everything you just said too) but I will inject what I think made them popular before the movie...

How Sparta was handled during the reign of Alexander. See the Greeks viewed the Macedonians as "lesser Greeks" and to be ruled by them was a great shame. So the Greek cities rallied against them often and their rebellions had to be quelled. All of Greece was conquered except... Sparta. Sparta was not an important city to hold for an empire and while he gave them the opportunity to join the empire (he had like a league of rulers set up as his advisers, as was the Macedonian way) and Sparta was actually seen as bit of a backward place by then. I think they led a revolt (on behalf of other Greeks) that failed. Alexander (and his father too) saw no reason to have them conquered.

However all the reality aside Sparta did something that always guarantees remembrance in history.

Alexander said: ( from memory, have not done classics for years)

If you don't surrender we will destroy your city.

Spartans said:

If

Moments like this tend to be seen as awesome, like the famous "NUTS" in the second world war etc. But yes Sparta is not a hugely amazing place. In fact they tended to keep to themselves a lot from memory. I think this is one of the reasons Sparta is famous.

DorianGray wrote:
The IoM as a brutal warrior police state would be amazing. The astartes rule everything. There would be no art or culture of any kind except towards waging war.

Isn't that largely what the Imperium already does...?

You don't want the cultured Eldar in their glass-dome cities writing poetry, art, or doing harlequin ballet - that makes them weak.

The harlequins who have guarded the Black Library for untold millenia?

Galaxy belongs to the strongest. Only the astartes can ensure that.

Except..they can't, and they've repeatedly demonstrated such.

Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?

Probably Athens...because it still exists, and is a modern capitol city of a European nation with roughly three million people living around it. Sparta meanwhile...does not really exist. Ancient Sparta basically ceased to exist and the city itself remained largely abandoned for nearly two millenia, and the modern town of Sparti has about 1% of Athen's population, and only goes back to about 1850.

Sparta?

Sparta collapsed because of slave revolts, internal strife, political corruption and the fact that the legendary behavior of Spartans (as depicted in the Zack Snyder film 300) did not actually make it beyond the borders of Sparta. Once they got out and about, Spartans were basically boorish barbarians, far more interested in plunder and rape than actually fighting a war, excepting where the latter lead to more of the former.

And as far as highly-regarded in the modern age? Athens, most definitely. We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.

 Psienesis wrote:
We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.

But someone only interested in war and battles doesn't necessarily understand that Athens produced all the things needed for him to enjoy life as a citizen in a democracy, including the right to read about ancient battles on the internet. Or maybe he just admires the stoicism and laconic speech of the Spartans without wishing for a state where "true citizens" are soldiers and everyone else is a slave or a female (or even worse, a female slave).

Ofc, if someone REALLY wants old Sparta back ask if they had any health problems as newborn or a child. I took a frightful cold as a newborn child and had to stay in the hospital for two weeks - the Spartans would have thrown me down that well from 300.