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DorianGray wrote:

Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?

And look how they both pale in modern regard to Lesbos, shrine of red-blooded males the world over.

Edit: white-blooded, wtf, Miko?!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Lesbos, shrine of red-blooded males the world over.!

Oh... Hot Greek women discussing philosophy, poetry and politics. And then maybe bedding each other?

I'll be in my bunk.

(Seriously, though, Sappho's poetry was pretty awesome).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
(Seriously, though, Sappho's poetry was pretty awesome).

I thought she preferred guys from her poetry? or maybe just flexible.............

Spartans definitely preferred men - women were for breeding (and running the country, supervising the slaves (*), commerce and pretty much anything men did not want to do) for the most part as I understand it.

They were always hovering on the brink of rebellion by their massive slave population and once their quite formidable reputation had been lost after Spartans surrendered to Athenian forces they were pretty done. I love the first 300 film and see it as exactly how the Spartans would have described the battle and seen in that light it works wonderfully.

(*) one of the more amusing elements to the 2nd 300 film is all the posturing about Western free men versus decadent Eastern slaver owners, when not only were large numbers of Greeks to be found in the Persian forces - including kings and queens like Artemisia, but Sparta and Athens were hugely dependant on slaves. Artemisia is of course nothing like she is depicted in the film and survives to marry one of the Persian Kings sons - having also cunningly dispatched one of her rival kings in the sea battle (which she advised against participating in) - the Persian King thinks she is great...............

DorianGray wrote:

Look at the legacy of SPARTA compared to decadent corrupt Athens. What is much more highly regarded?

Just a reminder about 300: Yes it is a film about true events and the Spartans did manage to hold off hundreds times their own numbers. However what everyone forgets is that for every Spartan there where 3 to 4 slave warriors, so in actual fact it was 300 Spartan warriors and 1000+ Slave Warriors holding off the Persians.

They also fought a fairly civilised army, not the hordes of fething Mordor.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.

But someone only interested in war and battles doesn't necessarily understand that Athens produced all the things needed for him to enjoy life as a citizen in a democracy, including the right to read about ancient battles on the internet. Or maybe he just admires the stoicism and laconic speech of the Spartans without wishing for a state where "true citizens" are soldiers and everyone else is a slave or a female (or even worse, a female slave).

Ofc, if someone REALLY wants old Sparta back ask if they had any health problems as newborn or a child. I took a frightful cold as a newborn child and had to stay in the hospital for two weeks - the Spartans would have thrown me down that well from 300.

And interestingly enough, Themistocles is really the architect of Greek victory against Persia in that war. Without his foresight of building an immense navy crewed by the democratic citizens of Athens, Greece would be very different now along with the rest of the world I would imagine.

 andrewm9 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
We don't remember cultures for their wars and battles, we remember them for their art and philosophy, which Athens had in spades throughout history.

But someone only interested in war and battles doesn't necessarily understand that Athens produced all the things needed for him to enjoy life as a citizen in a democracy, including the right to read about ancient battles on the internet. Or maybe he just admires the stoicism and laconic speech of the Spartans without wishing for a state where "true citizens" are soldiers and everyone else is a slave or a female (or even worse, a female slave).

Ofc, if someone REALLY wants old Sparta back ask if they had any health problems as newborn or a child. I took a frightful cold as a newborn child and had to stay in the hospital for two weeks - the Spartans would have thrown me down that well from 300.

And interestingly enough, Themistocles is really the architect of Greek victory against Persia in that war. Without his foresight of building an immense navy crewed by the democratic citizens of Athens, Greece would be very different now along with the rest of the world I would imagine.

Yep. The mastermind behind repelling both Persian invasions was an Athenian.
Ironically, he ended up working for a Persian king, after getting framed for treason by the Spartans

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
(Seriously, though, Sappho's poetry was pretty awesome).

I thought she preferred guys from her poetry? or maybe just flexible.............

If my memory does not fail me, there is almost no evidence that Sappho was inclined toward same-sex stuff, the only evidence being a poem expressing love for a woman. Based on such evidence, Bob Dylan is gay. And so is Shakespeare. Because both have written the points of view of women.

Again if memory does not fail me, the idea that Sappho was "that kind of" Lesbian is a late-19th-century idea, part of the whole Wilde/Baudelaire decadence thing,

Alcibiades wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
(Seriously, though, Sappho's poetry was pretty awesome).

I thought she preferred guys from her poetry? or maybe just flexible.............

If my memory does not fail me, there is almost no evidence that Sappho was inclined toward same-sex stuff, the only evidence being a poem expressing love for a woman. Based on such evidence, Bob Dylan is gay. And so is Shakespeare. Because both have written the points of view of women.

Again if memory does not fail me, the idea that Sappho was "that kind of" Lesbian is a late-19th-century idea, part of the whole Wilde/Baudelaire decadence thing,

Actually, my point there was that her wrote good poetry, and was cool with or without being homosexual.

On the other hand, she wrote several poems about the women she loved, including several outright pornographic ones. She then went on to have a husband, who turned a blind eye to her continued flings with women. She was most likely bisexual, and from the sounds of it, polyamorous as well.

Uhhh, Spess Mahreens to... homosexual poetry?
wat?

It seems you never heard of Lionel Johnson, writer of the Dark Angel

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Uhhh, Spess Mahreens to... homosexual poetry?
wat?

Via ancient Greece.

Welcome to Dakka.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yep. The mastermind behind repelling both Persian invasions was an Athenian.
Ironically, he ended up working for a Persian king, after getting framed for treason by the Spartans

While he was the victim of a classic frame, Themistocles did not do his cause any good by taking every opportunity to loudly proclaim his status as the true genius of the victory over the Persians. He basically introduced himself as, "Themistocles, the Genius Who Beat the Persians, Remember?"

Also remember that the Spartan King who won the land battle at Platea ended up being walled up inside a temple to starve to death, only to be pulled out just before he died so he wouldn't defile the holy place. So the two men who were key to victory ended being branded traitors (the Spartan with more justification than the Athenian.)

Ain't history fun?

While he was the victim of a classic frame, Themistocles did not do his cause any good by taking every opportunity to loudly proclaim his status as the true genius of the victory over the Persians. He basically introduced himself as, "Themistocles, the Genius Who Beat the Persians, Remember?"

Even Ancient History had its ways of dealing with loudmouthed jerks.

yeah so space marines.

The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.

...Yep, he's a troll.

DorianGray wrote:
yeah so space marines.

The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.

And the greatest of them all....

ARE THE ULTRAMARINES!

On a serious note, Dorian is partially right about that. 40K is pretty much about the Space Marines and their many glorious adventures. Though, I would hardly call playing Guard/Eldar being scammed. Leman Russ tanks > Predators.

DorianGray wrote:
yeah so space marines.

The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.

Whaddareya talkin' about!?

 Swastakowey wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
If you think about it, how far can a Space Marine run if he has to fuel such a large body? Cattle, Sheep and Goats tend to spend most of their time eating as they move around, it is likely Space Marines need very frequent food breaks. This means they need humans to fuel their "amazing speed" with human farming and produce.

Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.

DorianGray wrote:
yeah so space marines.

The 40k hobby is about Space Marines being great and the best. Everyone else are their stomping victims. You exist to be defeated for the glory of the chapter. Anyone who doesn't play Space Marines you been scammed.

Speak for yourself silly Gue'ron'sha.

Ive been looking in and out of this post for a bit and its got me a little disturbed.

There was once a man who believed there was a genetically superior race and they should rule....

Hitler didn't do so well buddy

 TheMisterBold wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
If you think about it, how far can a Space Marine run if he has to fuel such a large body? Cattle, Sheep and Goats tend to spend most of their time eating as they move around, it is likely Space Marines need very frequent food breaks. This means they need humans to fuel their "amazing speed" with human farming and produce.

Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.

And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine (one of the main characters asks why another main character, a BT Reclusiarch, isn't eating at function held before the expedition) unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.

Really, as with everything, different sources say different things.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.

It certainly makes sense that a marine would have trouble keeping his body fueled if he had to eat "normal" food in the midst of battle. He probably needs more nutrients than even strongmen, and those guys often eat 6-7 times a day. Each meal enough to support you and me for the whole day or a bit more.

I don't doubt this has been covered before but even so;

"Space Marines are superior to humans"

A superior species that can't breed on its own, is notably stubborn and single-minded when it comes to their duty as the Imperium's shock troops and is generally represented as tiny, isolated units which more often than not vie against each other to be "the best?"

A superior species that is almost totally reliant on mere humans to train specific members of its organisation in even the most basic technological procedures? A species that, by and large, takes a backseat to "ordinary" humans in almost every war the Imperium has ever prosecuted, because when you need a planet won or an enemy smashed beyond all recovery there's no better tool than the Imperial Guard to do it with?

A superior species that once ACTUALLY TRIED THIS and completely failed to achieve dominance of the empire it was trying to take over, for the very reasons stated above and in other people's posts?

Sure, bruh. I bet the Imperium would be a wonderland with everyone's favourite science projects in charge.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time in M.36, a very bad man by the name of Goge Vandire took over the Imperium.

He enslaved women, taxed planets to death, and hurt a lot of people.

The Adeptus Mechanicus didn't like this very much, so they went on an epic quest to bring the famous hero, Sebastian Thor and his billions-strong army of heroic soldiers to help them, but even the great Confederation of Light wasn't powerful enough to break through Vandire's Terran defences. So they went and begged the Space Marines for help.

The Ultramarines said: "It's not my problem, I have a war in Maccrage to fight."

The Salamanders said: "It's not my problem, I have civilians to save."

The Space Wolves said: "Haha, those idiots, have fun. Not my problem, have a drink." (and then they got drunk, which is why alcohol is bad).

And so it went, until they came to the Imperial Fists. The Setinels of Terra new their duty, and came to help. They brought their friends with them, three other full chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The Black Templars, largest and most fanatical of the chapters. The Fire Hawks, cursed by ill-luck and dedicated to the defence of the realm. The Soul Drinkers, heroic warriors used to close-quarters and bloody fights.

These four great chapters of the magnificent Space Marines, alloyed with the heroic Confederation of Light, an army billions strong, and the technologically advanced Adeptus Mechanicus layed siege to the Ecclesiastical Palace on Terra. The seat of Imperial power... and they failed.

Vandire's fortress stood fast against their might. The greatest minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus could not figure a way in. The most brilliant siegemasters of the Adeptus Astartes could not force entry. The teeming hordes of human heroes could not stop Vandire's guns.

The one day, the shooting stopped. The doors to the palace opened, and a girl walked out. Armoured, and wielding a silver-bladed power sword, she held high the head of the villainous Vandire.

The armies parted before her, and she marched between them to the command post where the invading forces planned their losing war. Behind her came the palace's defenders, all three thousand who yet lived. Women, some as young as thirteen, in battle-proud armour.

"I," the woman announced to the waiting leaders of the attacking force, "am Alicia Dominica. I hereby offer the unconditional surrender of the Ecclesiastical Palace, and present to you the head of the arch-traitor, Goge Vandire."

All the power of the Space Marines... defeated, in the face of a young woman with the favour of the Emperor.

So you don't understand the difference between an assassination and a siege.... like at all? Of course the Sister killed Vandire- she was one of his harem girls inside the impenetrable citadel and free to kill him at any time. That's like claiming a concubine is more powerful than the entire army of some princeling because she stabbed the lord of the castle while the army outside camped outside for a year due to lacking raw power to penetrate its walls. Nevermind that a mere three Chapters or more with Mechanicus support would have never breached the Imperial Palace- the palace is the size of a continent, is likely self sufficient, has void shields capable of surviving planetary destruction, and shrugged off the largest FLEET ever assembled against the Imperium by Horus. Not even the arch-traitor managed to breach the shields despite having over a quarter of the Admech's firepower and multiple entire Legions of the Astartes along with the Imperial Army. Although it does beg the question why didn't somebody grow a brain and get a psyker to turn Vandire inside-out.

If I fire .50 BMG at a tank and the round glances off the armor, but then fire a 9x19mm bullet from inside the tank and ventilate the commander's skull, the 9mm round is obviously not stronger than the bullet with greater kinetic energy. Nor is it better. It managed to get the job done thanks to being inside the vehicle itself.


As a Nietzsche Nihilist, the ideal of Übermensch is something to always be sought. But Astartes fail it, as they are mentally bound by their hypnotherapy. They also are not capable of reproducing outside of possibly using in-vitro, but that's not really ideal if the only way to get another generation is via needle.

Now the Mechanicus on the other hand? Therein lies the path to Übermensch. The perfect being, one without the petty binding of morality or emotion, yet having enough logic to prevent sociopathic behavior while also being physically immortal. The final evolution of humanity into the machine itself, maximizing the best advantages of biological and mechanical life while trimming the disadvantages. You can even transfer your consciousness to use a capital ship as your physical avatar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zarjaz! wrote:
I don't doubt this has been covered before but even so;

"Space Marines are superior to humans"

A superior species that can't breed on its own, is notably stubborn and single-minded when it comes to their duty as the Imperium's shock troops and is generally represented as tiny, isolated units which more often than not vie against each other to be "the best?"

A superior species that is almost totally reliant on mere humans to train specific members of its organisation in even the most basic technological procedures? A species that, by and large, takes a backseat to "ordinary" humans in almost every war the Imperium has ever prosecuted, because when you need a planet won or an enemy smashed beyond all recovery there's no better tool than the Imperial Guard to do it with?

A superior species that once ACTUALLY TRIED THIS and completely failed to achieve dominance of the empire it was trying to take over, for the very reasons stated above and in other people's posts?

Sure, bruh. I bet the Imperium would be a wonderland with everyone's favourite science projects in charge.

The Horus Heresy failed due to the Loyalists retaining more power and the Horus Heresy in the first place intended to be a failure by the will of the Chaos Gods. Horus was fated to lose and is described as a sacrificial lamb by the daemons. Plus the Primarchs were simply too weak to actually kill the Emperor, or penetrate his fortress. The only reason why the Emperor was injured in the first place was thanks to him leading a charge into the enemy fleet when his void shields should have held out even longer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
Ive been looking in and out of this post for a bit and its got me a little disturbed.

There was once a man who believed there was a genetically superior race and they should rule....

Hitler didn't do so well buddy

And? Hitler was right in that the powerful will survive as the better, stronger party. No different than how humans led to the extinction of mammalian megafauna thanks to us being outright superior.

Unfortunately for Hitler and fortunately for us, he was completely insane and vastly overestimated his strength compared to the majority of the world. Plus the German people are not an actual race, IE sub-species/species, but just an ethnic group, and multiple ones at that. But if there is a legitimately genetically superior race (Homo sapiens superior?) to rise in the future, by natural order it is only right that they would succeed Homo sapiens and lord over the original humans until they eventually die out completely and the new, better, species takes its niche.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:
The only Astartes I'd say could possibly "rule humanity" are the Primarchs - and even then, only a few of them. And they're not available. This is, without a shadow of a doubt, the dumbest fluff idea I have ever read.

The Primarchs were what got everybody into this mess into the first place. The only ones really fit for leadership at all was Guilliman and....... Vulkan. Really, that's it. Everybody else was either a whiny man-child like Horus or was wholly dedicated to warfare and almost autistic when it came to running a world like the Lion. I'd much rather have Azrael, Calgar, Kantor, etc as a feudal styled overlord of me than say, Konrad Curze, Khan, Magnus, etc.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 TheMisterBold wrote:
Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.

And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine (one of the main characters asks why another main character, a BT Reclusiarch, isn't eating at function held before the expedition) unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.

Really, as with everything, different sources say different things.

The actual codices agree with this source more than his source. Space Marines require chemical and hormonal diets to maintain their genetic implants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
So you don't understand the difference between an assassination and a siege

They couldn't manage to get in to assassinate to begin with, so the difference is irrelevant.

Humans have stopped Space Marines numerous times. Space Marines are not gods unto the battlefield.

 Melissia wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 TheMisterBold wrote:
Not if you actually read into the space marines. In the book "Deathwatch" the main character plainly stated that they can eat like a regular human but they can go for long periods of time without doing so.

And in the book Priests of Mars it is stated that normal human food is useless to a Space Marine (one of the main characters asks why another main character, a BT Reclusiarch, isn't eating at function held before the expedition) unless they eat impractically massive amounts. It's explained to him that they instead eat a grey paste that's rich with nutrients and because of this is dangerous for nrmal humans to eat.

Really, as with everything, different sources say different things.

The actual codices agree with this source more than his source. Space Marines require chemical and hormonal diets to maintain their genetic implants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
So you don't understand the difference between an assassination and a siege

They couldn't manage to get in to assassinate to begin with, so the difference is irrelevant.

.......The feth? That doesn't even make logical sense. Of course they couldn't get in to assassinate Vandire because of the strongest void shields standing between them and the Imperial Palace that not even the largest Imperial fleet ever assembled managed to break- and to break the void shields on Terra would mean to destroy the planet itself. And again, the sister succeed in the killing because she may very well may have been in BED with Vandire. Or at the very least, inside the strongest void shield ever built. What she did was only impressive in that she broke whatever hypnotherapy they were initially using on the proto-sisters and hacked off the man's head. Not that she managed to kill him, because even a Guardsmen could have managed that so long as he was inside the Palace and had a shot.

Wyzilla, the point of the story wasn't that Alicia killed Vandire.

The point of the story was that the Space Marines couldn't break through the palace defences... and it has nothing to do with void shields, because that kind of void shield, you can literally walk through, they only protect against high-velocity weapon attacks.

Which means that the Space Marines couldn't defeat an entrenched force of Brides.

Indeed.

The modern Sisters of Battle are described as the equals to Space Marines in terms of martial prowess, and the Brides of the Emperor / Daughters of the Emperor were no less badass. In fact, Alicia Dominica apparently led a crusade afterwards that was second only to the Great Crusade in what it gained the Imperium-- through "several centuries" of crusading.