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For an Imperial citizen who has covertly become corrupted by Chaos, shouldn't he be referred to as a apostate instead of a heretic?

I've only seen the term "apostate" once though, a la "Age of Apostasy".

*Shrug* Does not have the same ring to it.

No, heretic is correct.

A heretic is someone who holds principles and beliefs that strongly oppose the accepted norm. An apostate is simply someone who abandons their beliefs.

Those beliefs don't need to be explicitly religious, and bear in mind in the beginning of the heresy, the goals of the traitors were partially still Imperial - they wanted to rule the Imperium, not destroy it, and carry on empire building and such - just without the rule of the Emperor. That's heresy.

An apostate would be someone who simply abandoned the Imperium without trying to change it.

If anything, it's the Age of Apostasy that's misnamed, not the Horusy Heresy.

Hierophant wrote:
No, heretic is correct.

A heretic is someone who holds principles and beliefs that strongly oppose the accepted norm. An apostate is simply someone who abandons their beliefs.

Those beliefs don't need to be explicitly religious, and bear in mind in the beginning of the heresy, the goals of the traitors were partially still Imperial - they wanted to rule the Imperium, not destroy it, and carry on empire building and such - just without the rule of the Emperor. That's heresy.

An apostate would be someone who simply abandoned the Imperium without trying to change it.

If anything, it's the Age of Apostasy that's misnamed, not the Horusy Heresy.

I'm referring to the period post-HH, the Age of the Imperium. After the Imperial Cult was established. The Imperial Cult is basically Emperor worship. A devotee of Chaos spits on the Emperor and worships the 4 gods. It is an entirely different religion, hence one should not be considered a heretic, but an apostate.

It can apply politically as well as religiously, and the traitors are 100% political heretics. Also, bear in mind that the term heretic here is not meant to be a literal description, but more a pejorative.

Calling someone a heretic implies they're following invalid teachings. It's an attack on the validity of their beliefs. Bear in mind the Imperium doesn't officially acknowledge that Chaos even exists, or its divinity among those that know about it, such as the Inquisition, who look at it scientifically. It's not just a descriptive term, but an insult.

Apostate is a much milder term, and simply describes unbelief. An apostate merely leaves the faith and challenges its validity. A heretic wishes to change and pervert it.

Also, bear in mind to be an apostate, you needed to have believed prior. You can't leave a religion you were never part of, and the Chaos Space Marines never believed in the Emperor's divinity even when loyal, in the same way the current loyal Marines don't.

Hierophant wrote:
It can apply politically as well as religiously, and the traitors are 100% political heretics. Also, bear in mind that the term heretic here is not meant to be a literal description, but more a pejorative.

Calling someone a heretic implies they're following invalid teachings. It's an attack on the validity of their beliefs. Bear in mind the Imperium doesn't officially acknowledge that Chaos even exists, or its divinity among those that know about it, such as the Inquisition, who look at it scientifically. It's not just a descriptive term, but an insult.

Apostate is a much milder term, and simply describes unbelief. An apostate merely leaves the faith and challenges its validity. A heretic wishes to change and pervert it.

Also, bear in mind to be an apostate, you needed to have believed prior. You can't leave a religion you were never part of, and the Chaos Space Marines never believed in the Emperor's divinity even when loyal, in the same way the current loyal Marines don't.

I think apostasy can be just as bad, if not worse, then heresy. As I said earlier, I was referring to post -HH Imperial citizens.

According to Wikipedia "heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one's religion, principles or cause". The use of heretic in 40k stems from the dogma of the Imperial Cult mostly.

Someone who worships Chaos would be an apostate to the Imperial Cult. Of course the authorities want to hide Chaos from the public, though since they ostensibly conduct public purgings they'd have to acknowledge the existence of Chaos in some form or another.

Or maybe it was an early GW misnomer that just happened to stick. Heretic is a more common term than apostate as well.

Hierophant wrote:No, heretic is correct.

A heretic is someone who holds principles and beliefs that strongly oppose the accepted norm. An apostate is simply someone who abandons their beliefs.

Those beliefs don't need to be explicitly religious, and bear in mind in the beginning of the heresy, the goals of the traitors were partially still Imperial - they wanted to rule the Imperium, not destroy it, and carry on empire building and such - just without the rule of the Emperor. That's heresy.

An apostate would be someone who simply abandoned the Imperium without trying to change it.

If anything, it's the Age of Apostasy that's misnamed, not the Horusy Heresy.

The Age of Apostasy is so named because the Ecclesiarchy stopped being about caring for the flock and teaching the word of the Emperor, and instead focussed on accruing wealth and political power.The church had lost its faith - become apostate.

Hierophant wrote:
Also, bear in mind to be an apostate, you needed to have believed prior. You can't leave a religion you were never part of, and the Chaos Space Marines never believed in the Emperor's divinity even when loyal, in the same way the current loyal Marines don't.

The Word Bearers believed in the divinity of the Emperor but I imagine the vast majority of the Imperium would have no inkling of that fact.

The Imperium is correct to call someone a Heretic because of what the term actually means. Heresy is not a bad thing inherently. Historically, heresy began to be seen as a bad thing in the Middle Ages around the time of the Edict of Milan in 313 with the Donatists and Arians, and latter with the Cathars sweeping through Europe.

It at first was not a bad thing, as the Donatists and Arians just had slight differences. It became terrible in the 12th and 13th centuries though. Seeing as how they had a different interpretation of things than the dominant Catholicism, they were demonized, and that sentiment has carried over into today's world. Hearing the term Heretic today to us is immediately associated with evil and wrongness because our ancestors were taught than anything that was not in line with the Catholic Church's teachings was leading to the path to damnation. It makes sense why were perceive heretics as bad.

However, the term heresy comes from the Greek word for choice, literally "party or school of a man's choice". Though the Cathars were pretty different and lumped into the whole heresy thing, they were far from the only thing. Heretics of Christianity were ironically the most devout Christians. They were fed up with the corruption and dedication to money in the Catholic Church, and people like Peter Waldo advocated for things like translating the Bible from Latin into other languages, they were anti-clerical, believed in lay piety (worship on their own time), anti-materialistic, and believed in the idea of congregation outside of the church to talk about God, just to name a few. This all came to a head in 1209 when the Albigensian Crusade begins in South Eastern France under Philip Augustus and the Pope (I think Pope Gregory? Someone correct me if I'm wrong) and ends in 1229, and where our idea heresy is bad comes from.

Anyways, heresy is not a bad thing historically, just abused by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages to demonize people who had a different view as them, and were seen as bad regardless of their views as they were believed to be potentially harmful to their authority.

Insert Chaos for the types of heresy, and the Imperium for the Catholic Church. It fits to a tee if you understand the history behind the word.

Sorry for the history lesson, but understanding why heresy fits for Imperials who don't follow the Imperial Cult boils down to this history.

 Ignatius wrote:
The Imperium is correct to call someone a Heretic because of what the term actually means. Heresy is not a bad thing inherently. Historically, heresy began to be seen as a bad thing in the Middle Ages around the time of the Edict of Milan in 313 with the Donatists and Arians, and latter with the Cathars sweeping through Europe.

It at first was not a bad thing, as the Donatists and Arians just had slight differences. It became terrible in the 12th and 13th centuries though. Seeing as how they had a different interpretation of things than the dominant Catholicism, they were demonized, and that sentiment has carried over into today's world. Hearing the term Heretic today to us is immediately associated with evil and wrongness because our ancestors were taught than anything that was not in line with the Catholic Church's teachings was leading to the path to damnation. It makes sense why were perceive heretics as bad.

However, the term heresy comes from the Greek word for choice, literally "party or school of a man's choice". Though the Cathars were pretty different and lumped into the whole heresy thing, they were far from the only thing. Heretics of Christianity were ironically the most devout Christians. They were fed up with the corruption and dedication to money in the Catholic Church, and people like Peter Waldo advocated for things like translating the Bible from Latin into other languages, they were anti-clerical, believed in lay piety (worship on their own time), anti-materialistic, and believed in the idea of congregation outside of the church to talk about God, just to name a few. This all came to a head in 1209 when the Albigensian Crusade begins in South Eastern France under Philip Augustus and the Pope (I think Pope Gregory? Someone correct me if I'm wrong) and ends in 1229, and where our idea heresy is bad comes from.

Anyways, heresy is not a bad thing historically, just abused by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages to demonize people who had a different view as them, and were seen as bad regardless of their views as they were believed to be potentially harmful to their authority.

Insert Chaos for the types of heresy, and the Imperium for the Catholic Church. It fits to a tee if you understand the history behind the word.

Sorry for the history lesson, but understanding why heresy fits for Imperials who don't follow the Imperial Cult boils down to this history.

What about the term apostate? Someone who has scorned the Emperor and no longer believes in the Imperial Cult and the Emperor's divinity.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
For an Imperial citizen who has covertly become corrupted by Chaos, shouldn't he be referred to as a apostate instead of a heretic?

I've only seen the term "apostate" once though, a la "Age of Apostasy".

depends what side of the fence your on..i feel like a deeply dark religous chapter like the word bearers would label their cannon fodder apostates, but say a loyal space marine would call them a heretic

Crimson Heretic wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
For an Imperial citizen who has covertly become corrupted by Chaos, shouldn't he be referred to as a apostate instead of a heretic?

I've only seen the term "apostate" once though, a la "Age of Apostasy".

depends what side of the fence your on..i feel like a deeply dark religous chapter like the word bearers would label their cannon fodder apostates, but say a loyal space marine would call them a heretic

Can't be though. The WB's enemies are Imperials who have never experienced Chaos, making it impossible for them to be apostates.

Besides, there's no such thing as a Chaos apostate. Once you go black, you never go back.


And many Imperials are deeply religious too.

The Space Marines are contradictorily enough the most devoted fighters, yet the least devoted believers. This is probably thanks to Matt Ward's fanboyism and insistence that the loyalists stay true to the Imperial Truth.