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Yeah, I'd totally be in for 3 packs of 1-of-each vehicle.

On the other hand three people can azazel their EBs for the same amount a me upping my pledge and I don't give a gak if the top of the flier is highlighted or if the pathfinders legs are unisex.

I'll admit, I'm one of those dollar pledges. Looks like I will be for a good long while, too. If you can believe it, I still haven't received my Dreadball Xtreme stuff. They said they sent it and that they sent out replacements, but still nothing. I'm giving them until the end of the week before I contact them again about it, but until I get what I paid for, they aren't getting any extra cash from me.

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
On the other hand three people can azazel their EBs for the same amount a me upping my pledge and I don't give a gak if the top of the flier is highlighted or if the pathfinders legs are unisex.

I'm not entirely clear on your point, but if it is something along the lines of "quite whining" then it deserves a response. Clearly, backers like you are happy to give Mantic money no matter what they give you. However, there are a lot of people who will only give Mantic money on the condition that Mantic gives them a product of reasonable value in exchange for said money. Now, it seems to me Mantic would like to include the second pile of money along with their safe first pile, so it is in Mantic's interest to listen to the people who are trying to tell Mantic how to take their money. The backers win because Mantic is forced to make products that hold value for the maximum number of people (within Mantic's ability).

So, in essence, if we all just shut up, we all lose.

 Barzam wrote:
I'll admit, I'm one of those dollar pledges. Looks like I will be for a good long while, too. If you can believe it, I still haven't received my Dreadball Xtreme stuff. They said they sent it and that they sent out replacements, but still nothing. I'm giving them until the end of the week before I contact them again about it, but until I get what I paid for, they aren't getting any extra cash from me.

I think your mailman might be a wargamer.

Fair points, it wasn't an attack, probably a poor choice of wording.

As an act of contrition here's that breakdown of the value of the Asterian battle group that was asked for:

It's going to be hard to get *exactly* what's in the battle group through retail. But let's look at the 15 cyphers, overseer, 2 drones, pair of bikes, and a guess at the kalyshi...

The starter is 28 dollars and has 7 cyphers and the black talon (not in the army deal, consider him equivalent to a cypher in value?) plus two heavy weapon drones and the overseer. Good start. But now where do we get the other 7-8 cyphers we need to have an equivalent amount? There are 5-packs of cyphers for $16 and boosters that include 3 cyphers, a black talon, and a skyrazor for $20. I guess we should get two of those to cover the skyrazors.

So... 28 for the starter, 40 more for two boosters (out of stock atm) gets us 16 cyphers (three are black talons, may even be considered an advantage here), the overseer, two weapon platforms, two skyrazor bike things.. so that's all of the restic duplicated for 68 dollars. The kalyshi.. hmm... gonna call those at least 20 bucks as they're both metal and given the fact that even the restic stuff from the kickstarters usually comes in that much or more. And of course the 20/$20 plastic dudes you'd have to order during the campaign.

So... 75 dollars now buys you what I'm estimating to be 108 dollars worth of Asterians at retail, and a long wait to get the majority of it. Not a bad markdown, from 3rd party retail discount. Also note that the NOW method involves 12 cyphers and 3 cypher black talons, which is theoretically better, possibly just a sidegrade, but IS different. Was as close as I could get.

Is it just me, or does the tunneler battlegroup look like the best value so far? I mean they haven't added any bonus bits to the tanks, or well lots but nothing specific to the battle group like they did the other two, and a couple of guns for ONE of the dropships is kind of boring. Still solid deals, but the tunneler crew compartment bonus in the sketch art is as big as the other tunnelers and looks the same minus maybe the front where it goes on. Am I reading too much into this or does it really look like with a little hobby work, maybe, that you're getting something more like *four* tunnelers in that bundle? Even if the tunneler compartment ends up being shorter or something, I'm willing to bet you could still tack one of the chemthrower/laser bits to the front and have a slightly short gunneler.

On the other hand if all that pandering doesn't result in an increase in income the the forum opinions are just that and you all know the sayings about opinions. Some of the criticism has a lot of merit but a lot of it is just people getting upset things were not done the way they wanted it done. Yes the old dog drone looked dumb but there was never a problem with the flier (Did anyone really think a professional painter had hard edge highlighted a mould line?) Both these thing consume time and effort on Mantics part but only one of them brought a positive change.

The problem with Cyphers in any amount is that nobody sane would want to assemble the models.

I think the tunnellers may be the best deal, but they are also the highest risk with no sculpting on show, and mantics variable ability to do justice to the art.

My suspicion is that the nose section will end up bigger than the art in order to let them do the fancy detaiing on the drills etc, and the transport compartment will end up smaller (after all the transport element of the drop ship and mule both look too small for what they're meant to contain)

so the spare compartment will probably end up just too small be believable as a 4th tunneler without significant hobby work

Edit: and as to no mix and match on the vehicles, either they're saving it for a last 24 hour surge,

or they just don't trust their packers to get it right and having to ship lots of $30 (theoretical value) replacements looks unappealing (compared to any other sprue with a nominal $8-10 value).. my personal guess

Fair points, though we shall have to wait and see I guess. I doubt the compartments will look too small for the nightcrawlers or whatever you call the basic veermyn troops, what with rat tropes about being able to flatten out and pack in and all that.

Like the limited pledges or hate them, we're already nearly down to 5k to Mules.

Sounds like I just need the Asterian starter and 20 plastic drones to get what I want.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
or they just don't trust their packers to get it right and having to ship lots of $30 (theoretical value) replacements looks unappealing (compared to any other sprue with a nominal $8-10 value).. my personal guess

Wow, great hypothesis. That actually makes sense. ("Wow" makes that read as sarcasm - it isn't.)

I still think it's a big mistake if they don't ever offer some sort of get-one-of-each vehicle pledge, even if it was set so that you got one of each type and couldn't change the mix. (So if you hate the Asterian flyer, tough, you'll get one anyway if you take the deal.) I'd buy into that, and I definitely won't buy the undiscounted equivalent of one of each for $30, and I'm far from the only one to say so. So that's money left on the table. If I stick with Total Warfare, my current plan is maybe to buy one more vehicle.

I think adding stuff to Ultimate Tyrant so it was fully equal to 2x Total Warfare at a better price had to be done. They were courting a big last day bailout on that, and boy am I tired of those. After the Frenzy debacle, that was a wise move.

Making Total Warfare limited all of a sudden, on the other hand, was a sucker punch. So they feel that they're maxed out and don't want to sweeten the deal or make it more customizable, so instead, they make it limited after the fact. Gutsy. As a pledger I think it will help the campaign, but there's no question that it won't be on all of our minds the next time they run a campaign. It's another thing to add to the "distrust / almost" pile. It will be cited here again and again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. And as sick of that as I will quickly get, even as a Mantic fan, I'm not going to challenge it. They brought it on themselves.

I have to look over my calculations again, but there's a good chance they'll keep me at Total Warfare. That's a bit of luck, really, considering how much of their material I already have from backing previous campaigns. I don't really need as many HIPS grunts as I'll get in the battlegroups, or extra 2nd / 3rd gens, etc. But while I'm not a wargamer, I am a guy who loves to modify and mess around and tinker with miniatures, and having extras for that purpose is great. 20 to 40 of every type of HIPS grunt will suit my purposes for years on that front. And while I'll be the first to admit that the 2nd Gens are highly flawed models, I've really enjoyed modifying them, and have gotten great results. I actually want more to mess with now. Strange, but true.

But as a Deadzone skirmish player, and even as a modder, this Warpath approach of stuffing old product into a new kickstarter is a one-trick pony for me. I'm loving the $75 deals on Enforcers and Plague, because I love modding those guys. But if they run a Marauder / Rebs Warpath campaign and trick out all the pledge levels with tons of old stuff again, I'll be in for a few add-ons only. This campaign isn't the best Mantic deal I've seen - everyone is always forgetting to add shipping costs into their estimations and comparisons with retail - but all in all I'm good with it. It does not make me eager to see any more KS Warpath KS campaigns, though.

I'd much rather have more KS Deadzone campaigns like Infestation, which came chock full of brand new stuff at a truly great value, and I'd much rather get new HIPS sprues for Marauders / Rebs in that context than this one, because in Infestation most of the old stuff was limited to add-ons. Pledge levels contained very little that was pre-funded, and that made their bundled discounts very attractive.

I hope Mantic haven't turned a cynical corner.

From a recent comment they may be preparing to add a bit more to the pledge levels may be on Friday?

..... though we do have a nice value booster going into the pledges coming soon ......

So, have they put up the Asterian flyer stretch goal yet? Will that even be funded this campaign?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, have they put up the Asterian flyer stretch goal yet? Will that even be funded this campaign?

Judging by the flex in the post-update jumps, I'd say there's probably room in the final 48 to squeak in the last couple of kits they have mentioned for Asterians, GCPS, Plague etc..
Bundle deals like that will probably be stop-gap goals to pick up slack.

 MLaw wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, have they put up the Asterian flyer stretch goal yet? Will that even be funded this campaign?

Judging by the flex in the post-update jumps, I'd say there's probably room in the final 48 to squeak in the last couple of kits they have mentioned for Asterians, GCPS, Plague etc..
Bundle deals like that will probably be stop-gap goals to pick up slack.

As far as expensive HIPS goes there's just two vehicles left, right? The Asterian flyer and the GCPS / Plague / maybe even Rebs flying thing.

I know people have talked about a GCPS tank too, but Mantic never has during the campaign, so they may not feel that committed to it at this point.

As long as the end's not a bleedout - and after today I don't think it will be - I think just two more HIPS vehicles should be very attainable. And I think it's pretty clear that Mantic really wants to launch Warpath with all of these factions fully supported, and that means they all need access to a large vehicle. One way or another, I think they'll do these.

There are several things in the alpha rules that haven't been mentioned officially. There's a corporation Lancer MBT, the TAD ##(forget) Hornet drop/gunship for the corp/plague (we're expecting that), the Hultr (spelling maybe) half-track forge father thing, some Marauders stuff under the GCPS army list. Probably a couple I've forgotten.

Yeah, I think we've got plenty of momentum coming for the 48 hour warning, plus who knows they may do some value-boosting final days stuff too. I think several of our "achieved" goals still have some "hidden unlocks" before they're "complete" or maybe that last one didn't need quotes. But the GCPS troops probably need some kind of aditional mini/heavy weapons/unit conversion sprue add-ons like most of the other kits. Asterian drone guys got them as did the plague, and the other units made in DZ:I. Still seems like the Sturnhammer battlegroup hasn't gotten its battlegroup bonus item yet. I'm not sure what else along those lines, but I'm thinking there are a few things from when we were getting short little stretches. I expect if it's pumping along those last two days we're gonna see more of those 20-30-50k sized goals to keep getting new stuff but also make up for old stuff.

I did like the 'reinforcements' compliment-sandwich style stretch goals where they gave us a thing that was always meant to be in an existing stretch, added a couple of models to a battle group, and gave us another thing that was probably always meant to be within an existing stretchgoal. Like a bunch of concurrent mini stretches but themed on a bigger stretchgoal. More likely that at least one of the facets is something you want, obscures exactly how much they think each of those bits are worth, and so on.

New update.. character looks good. Glad she is recognizable as a female without the need for her to have boobs, thighs, or other overt anatomy on display. Hopefully the sculptor carries that through.

Not so sure if we'll get any more HIPS vehicles. The padding from fake stretch goals seems to have been used up. HIPS is expensive and vehicles probably need at least 2-3 unique sprues each.

Consider:
1st HIPS was Dropship at 100.000
2nd HIPS was Beardtank at 175.000
3rd HIPS was Plague S3 at 225.000
4th HIPS was Tunneler at 240.000
5th HIPS was Mannequins at 250.000
6th HIPS was GCPS Troops at 350.000

Padding it at the start to shorten the goals in the traditionally slow middle is obvious.

But given that it took 100k to get one infantry sprue at the end (for which we haven't even reached any upgrade goals yet), and that the Mule is resin when it should have been a prime candidate for plastic, covering 2-3 factions, makes me think they took a loss in the middle and had to cover it with the 100k gap. That means they're well out of padding money and we're looking at more 100k gaps between plastics.

They could be pacing it for the final 48. I don't think they're hitting money issues just yet. I think they also would be willing to make concessions on the total, knowing that it'll grow in PM too. Either way we're both exercising in conjecture. Only Mantic (possibly) knows what's going on behind the curtain. We'll see how it plays out.

I estimate, we'll close around $650k (maybe). Low side though, i don't see us being lower than 500k. Gaming mat, plastic kits, upcoming value bundle, 48 hour reminder.. there's still plenty of cards to play.

Well, let's say we don't fund the vehicles. Then Mantic can either a) Fund and market them themselves, b) save them for a future kickstarter, or c) maybe partially fund them, maybe not, but at the very least lock in a bunch of pre-order sales on the PM.

They want Warpath to be a strong launch, fully supported, so b) is really inconvenient as some factions would launch weaker, making the whole thing look worse. C) is better than a), because at least that way they can pre-sell a bunch of them.

Personally, I think they'll find a way to make the two vehicles happen, but probably with priority on the GCPS one first. If anything is dropped, it'd be the Asterian flyer, much as I hate to say it.

Upgrading the GCPS trooper sprue should also be a lock. Would they put out a reduced product that they know won't sell as well, especially when it's a potentially huge seller like standard sci-fi soldiers? They'll want it to compete well on the market. If they originally intended to have ranger upgrades, jumppacks, do a two sprue set like the enforcers, etc., then I think we'll see it happen. They won't shoot themselves in the foot with a substandard release.

Mind you, they'll fiercely deny that any of these things are assured if certain posted targets aren't reached. As they should. That's how this game is played.

As for getting the other rulebook vehicles in hard plastic, though, I wouldn't pin any hopes on it. Mantic would have to be absolutely convinced they could carry it off, which would mean they're not already accepting any hidden deficits in producing the five vehicles they really want for this release, and that any additional non-essential releases were in fact fully covered by the campaign without smoke and mirrors. The later would probably boil down to exceeding their closing expectations by at least 200,000+ or so with plenty of momentum and time to spare.

Option D, do some stupid Almost thing like releasing the vehicles in restic or metal.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Option D, do some stupid Almost thing like releasing the vehicles in restic or metal.

restic Mules probably wouldn't upset me too much.. maybe..

having owned metal vehicles.. just.. no... that would kill them on shipping anyway..oh.. wait.. we have to eat the shipping..
lol, I can see them switching the whole line over to metal now and everyone gets slapped with $200 shipping..

If they throw an Asterian flyer into the BG, I'll buy one, no matter how much of a deal Miniature Market wants to give me.

Metal interceptors would be fun!

I'm liking the progress so far, should easily be able to fund 2 more vehicles (with options) and a sprinkling of new GCPS units and character models.

The only disappointment is the lack of Corporation tank that I've been waiting for for nearly 4 years now.

You and me both SS... you and me both. I'm not gonna link them again because my last post that did so was disappeared.... but I've stockpiled a trio of classic tanks with a scifi paint job that will get some scifi weapons and bits slapped onto them. Even if they fund a GCPS tank later on, I figure these can still work as Ranger Joe's Marine Surplus Shop special buys, cheap and cheerful, these tanks won't break the bank (unless they're shooting at it!).

 GrimDork wrote:
You and me both SS... you and me both. I'm not gonna link them again because my last post that did so was disappeared.... but I've stockpiled a trio of classic tanks with a scifi paint job that will get some scifi weapons and bits slapped onto them. Even if they fund a GCPS tank later on, I figure these can still work as Ranger Joe's Marine Surplus Shop special buys, cheap and cheerful, these tanks won't break the bank (unless they're shooting at it!).

Yeah, I'll always have room for well priced tanks. I wonder if Mantic would have rethought their pricing if they were as aware as their customers are of cheap scale model tanks, cheap Robogear tanks or clearance DUST tanks. $30 beard? My wallet doesn't need straightening out that badly.

Mine does, those tanks look awesome and I want three lol, I'll just have to use the other tanks I have for them as target practice

Hey! Guys! I just came up with a reason for Mantic to do a one-of-all-vehicles bundle that isn't self-centered and whiny! One that's for the good of the many!

Where's everybody going? Aw, c'mon guys, I'm serious . . .


Okay, here it is. How do you fund stuff that fewer people will want in an expensive material? You bundle it in with more popular stuff, of course! It's a kickstarter tradition!

So let's say Mantic is worried about how much the Asterian flyer, for example, will really pay off their / our investment with enough PM purchases, but they're really confident about the FF tank and the dropship.

Make a bundle of all three, one of each, as a standard-discounted battlegroup ($75). You'll get a lot more people who would've passed those Asterian flyers by at full price who will be happy to fund them through the discounted deal. Or if you're wrong and its the FF tank that's the dog at the PM box office, the Asterian flyer and Enforcer dropship in the deal help offset low interest in the tank.

The interesting thing about this particular pledge system is that even at the most expensive pledge tier, very little common customer purchase ground is guaranteed beyond the rulebooks. You can ensure people can only buy three of the same vehicle at a discount, but that doesn't guarantee that that particular vehicle will sell very well relative to the other battlegroups.

I'm wrong, aren't I? Why is that?

This seems like pretty basic Kickstarter bundling logic to me, and the fact that it would benefit me personally has no influence at all on that outlook. This is purely altruistic and objective thinking.

No, really. The check's in the mail.

Vermonter, you have to understand that the customers need a strong hand. They crave discipline. If you let them buy whatever they want, they will buy the wrong things. If you Punish them, they will learn.

At least, that is what the other wargame manufacturers tell me.