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Was thinking, in a campaign like the Sabbat Worlds Crusade where the Chaos forces are almost entirely Guard or Guard-level normal humans, could they turn from the Ruinous Powers in effect mutiny? There are several cases in the fluff of Imperial Guard revolting for various 'mundane' reasons, and obviously most Traitor Guard actively rebelled. Say its Western Front style meatgrinder, the Traitor Guard are suffering appalling casualties for little gain. Is it conceivable troops might mutiny, demanding a retreat from the planet or perhaps overthrowing their leadership not necessarily for pro-Imperial reasons (and we all know the Imperium's zero tolerance policy to traitors) but certainly anti-Chaos, they've had enough of this Blood for the Blood God crap, maybe the Tau can get them a better deal?

Or is even the lowliest grunt so deeply indoctrinated any such suggestions would be brutally surpressed?

Well, some tainted 'Imperial' citizens plead that they are loyal to the Emperor when they get caught, so they could turn tail once they are endangered if they arent good enough servants to the gods.

They could try, but in the end their souls are already spoken for.

Animus wrote:
They could try, but in the end their souls are already spoken for.

I second that... mostly.

There are worlds where Chaos is the norm, worshiping the Dark Gods is part of every day life. Are their souls claimed the moment they're born/conceived? I'm sure in a galaxy as vast as 40k, you could justify a scenario where the planet is originally Chaos-aligned but a pro-Imperium rebellion tries to fight to re-establish a long lost connection to the Imperium. Could those souls that were "born into it" be redeemed?

Seeing as how grim and dark 40k is, I'd doubt it.

*Glances at the last couple of books in the Tanith First and Only series*

It would appear so... at least to an extent

The way I look at Chaos is that it is a choice one has to make. You have to make the choice to commit yourself to the chaos gods to truly be "chaos".

Like sure you can catch a HORRIBLE nurgle plague designed to turn you to worship him, but even though you look like a plaguebearer and are sprouting off Nurglings, but if you do not make the spiritual commitment to nurgle you are not part of Chaos and thus not truly a traitor.

Once you commit yourselves to the ruinous powers there is no going back. You have signed a binding contract where the only way out is death. The closest thing chaotic traitors can get to forgiveness is the Emperor's Mercy.

So I don't believe true chaos is ever a matter of circumstance, but of choice.

And on the actual topic - Yeah there are specific examples of renegade, but not chaos Space Marine chapters so I am sure there are guard who have done the same thing.

Also nearly all Imperials are HEAVILY indoctrinated into the Imperial faith, but everyone has their breaking point to where enough is enough and they snap.

I could totally see a guard regiment defecting entirely and trying to join the Tau or forge their own mini empire.

 Jape wrote:
Was thinking, in a campaign like the Sabbat Worlds Crusade where the Chaos forces are almost entirely Guard or Guard-level normal humans, could they turn from the Ruinous Powers in effect mutiny? There are several cases in the fluff of Imperial Guard revolting for various 'mundane' reasons, and obviously most Traitor Guard actively rebelled. Say its Western Front style meatgrinder, the Traitor Guard are suffering appalling casualties for little gain. Is it conceivable troops might mutiny, demanding a retreat from the planet or perhaps overthrowing their leadership not necessarily for pro-Imperial reasons (and we all know the Imperium's zero tolerance policy to traitors) but certainly anti-Chaos, they've had enough of this Blood for the Blood God crap, maybe the Tau can get them a better deal?

Or is even the lowliest grunt so deeply indoctrinated any such suggestions would be brutally surpressed?

Hrm, dunno if mutiny against the gods directly would really be a thing, most likely they would simply break and think the gods abandoned them.

However, many "traitor" forces aren't really Chaos Zealots either, rather, they're bargaining the the Dark Powers to achieve other aims. You can see this amongst the CSM's quite clearly, as you have your Cult Legions (the Death Guard, World Eaters, etc) that really are devoted fanatics and little more than instruments of the will of their gods, and then you have other forces that will call upon their power and provide sacrifices and pay homage in exchange for aid and strength to fight their foes, such as in the case of say, the Night Lords or Iron Warriors or Red Corsairs. I imagine many of the more "mundane" forces fighting under the banner of Chaos do the same.

In these cases, where the aid of the Dark Gods fails to materialize or is simply judged insufficient, they may switch allegiances to a different god or break off engagement or simple fall apart, but I don't really see any of them outright "rebelling" in the same sense and going to someone like the Tau. That taint stays around.

 damattybear wrote:

Animus wrote:
They could try, but in the end their souls are already spoken for.

I second that... mostly.

There are worlds where Chaos is the norm, worshiping the Dark Gods is part of every day life. Are their souls claimed the moment they're born/conceived? I'm sure in a galaxy as vast as 40k, you could justify a scenario where the planet is originally Chaos-aligned but a pro-Imperium rebellion tries to fight to re-establish a long lost connection to the Imperium. Could those souls that were "born into it" be redeemed?

Seeing as how grim and dark 40k is, I'd doubt it.

Chaos-turned-Imperial citizens: Hi guys, we believe in the Emperor now, can you come and help us be an Imperial world?
Inquisitor: Err... yeah, sure, why not? [whispers to navigator] Send a message to the Administratum, found a completely unpopulated world, send colonists. [back to citizens] Now, we're setting up some nice and cosy concentration camps for you all to die - sorry, live in for the time being.

Soul Drinkers?

Yeah they can, I've read it in a book somewhere, but forget which one. Basically Space Marines turned to Chaos eventually realised what they'd done and couldn't live with themselves any longer. But I'd imagine this is only in the early stages.. their brains are too warped after a while.

 Flinty wrote:
Soul Drinkers?

Was thinking the same thing - that series was awesome - but they were more tricked into following chaos then going in wholeheartedly.

When somebody dies in 40k, their soul splits into its constituent energies, which each coalesce and form pools of energy, which eventually become Gods. Energies like fear and hate naturally occur, however, if you have devoted yourself to the worship of something, then your soul will naturally gather with the souls of others who worshiped with it, or go into the being that you worshiped (if it actually existed). On top of this, whenever you actually worship something, or feel a particularly powerful emotion, the energies from it feed off into the Warp, strengthening a Warp entity that is being worshiped or that is composed of the emotional energy that is being given off. Going off of how Gods are formed, your soul doesn't really "belong" to a God unless you die while you are still said God's devotee. Therefore, anyone who defects from Chaos can still be redeemed, however, they would probably get curbstomped by the God (or its followers) in response to said defection. Or, you could end up with a Slaanesh situation where, regardless of your soul's alignment, Slaanesh specifically seeks out your soul after you die, going out of her way to grab Eldar souls, even if its a total inconvenience. So, I'd say 75/25 chance of not having your soul NOMMED by the RP after you defect and subsequently received the Emperor's Mercy.