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Out today:

http://www.manticgames.com/SiteData/Root/File/KINGS%20OF%20WAR/KoW%20FAQ%20and%20Errata%20290915.pdf

I find it funny that the minimum model counts for official and proxy models is different.

Want to use something other than official Mantic models ? Make sure to jam more of them on the base

Those minimum model counts seem really, really low. You may as well just write the name of the unit on a piece of cardboard.

 JoshInJapan wrote:
Those minimum model counts seem really, really low. You may as well just write the name of the unit on a piece of cardboard.

A company err'ing on the side of the consumer? Ok!

Mantic Models are smaller than some of their competitors.
They also use a 20mm base standard making models with larger bases difficult to rebase.

I've been rebasing MageKnight modes for use in KoW and It's hard to get 6-8 MK models in the space that 10 Mantic models would occupy.

Maybe I'm too old, or maybe I played WHFB for too long, but all my fantasy models are based to allow them to rank up. I can see 8/10, but 4/10 just feels weird to me. Not saying you all should feel the same, of course, but it just sort of bugs me.

4/10 would work if they're big minis.



The three in the middle, for example. They don't seem like they should be large infantry because of their height, so they'll fit in a zombie regiment/horde/troop. 4 of those looks like a troop to me.

The guide line is roughly 60+%

If you could only fit 4 where 10 should be, then you should probably reconsider the appropriateness of the models, or just glue one to the base and call it a day.

 JoshInJapan wrote:
Maybe I'm too old, or maybe I played WHFB for too long, but all my fantasy models are based to allow them to rank up.

Just keep in mind that Warhammer Fantasy models were designed to fit in tight ranks, just like the Mantic Models.

It's more of an issue getting them to rank up, when they were never intended to, like D&D, Mage Knight, Crossbows and Catapults, Weapons and Warriors, etc...

4/10 is below the model count. The minimum for a troop of infantry would be 6.

I think it's great that Mantic encourages creativity by allowing heavy counts-as and diorama multibases.

I think it sucks that so much of the time people just take advantage to be cheap.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think it's great that Mantic encourages creativity by allowing heavy counts-as and diorama multibases.

I think it sucks that so much of the time people just take advantage to be cheap.

I agree. I also love the irony that some players moan about WAACers and "only certain people would be about it and they're probably rules lawyers themselves", then the same ones tried to rules lawyer the "reasonably close" condition of multibasing in the rules. Mantic come out with definitive (but still extremely lax and far more than any other company allows) rules and they're trying to rules lawyer again by claiming that things like base decorations count towards minimum model counts.

Hint: if your base decoration is the only thing that's getting your units "reasonably close" then you don't have enough models. If people continue to try and rules lawyer against the intention of the guidelines then expect them to be tightened even further.

Those look good, and I'm just thinking through all my Warlord Roman units and can't think of any that fall foul.

Where is anybody seeing 4/10? The only 4 is on a cavalry troop, which is 5 models, or on large model hordes, which I believe are 6.

Sorry, that was probably me. It looks like the minimum is 50%+1, which still seems a little sparse to me.

 JoshInJapan wrote:
Sorry, that was probably me. It looks like the minimum is 50%+1, which still seems a little sparse to me.

Me too, but it was kept that low to try and reduce the number of people complaining that their armies had been invalidated. I've already been told that I owe several people hundreds of pounds because they now don't have enough figures and have to buy more. Y'know, because that's my fault for them ignoring me saying "reasonably close" and my fault that they decided to build their armies with sparse decorations and my fault that they went with expensive GW models for their core.

Obviously you can't have such esoteric rules, but my personal code would be:

1) Does the base look full? If an Ogre could walk through the unit, you don't have enough stuff.

2) Does it look like a functional combat unit? If there's not enough warriors to reasonably match a normal unit of that size, or if they're doing some weird diorama thing that wouldn't really happen in the middle of a battle, no go.

3) Do the figures comply with the visual style of a tolkienesque fantasy game, in an appropriate scale and with an acceptable level of detail? I am not fighting Kinder Surprise hippos. Toys can be cool, but please repaint them to match the rest.

I love that the rule that generates the most debate about the game is a purely aesthetic one! Says something about the quality of the ruleset.

johnbailey wrote:
I love that the rule that generates the most debate about the game is a purely aesthetic one! Says something about the quality of the ruleset.

Agreed.

Mantic and the RC have hammered out a very solid rule set.

Lord Blackfang -"1) Does the base look full? If an Ogre could walk through the unit, you don't have enough stuff."

Then I would politely ask you to take your models home, because my ogres are going to walk right through them.

Boom!

 JoshInJapan wrote:
Sorry, that was probably me. It looks like the minimum is 50%+1, which still seems a little sparse to me.

Works for me, and gets my models based on 25mm round bases through - because that's all that fits on an official footprint. The models can then be removed and used for SBG, SAGA, or anything else. Also means I can get painted armies onto the table that much faster.

 Azazelx wrote:

 JoshInJapan wrote:
Sorry, that was probably me. It looks like the minimum is 50%+1, which still seems a little sparse to me.

Works for me, and gets my models based on 25mm round bases through - because that's all that fits on an official footprint. The models can then be removed and used for SBG, SAGA, or anything else. Also means I can get painted armies onto the table that much faster.

Spoiler:

2 regiments, 1 horde:

Those regiments look, er, regimented, so I don't have much issue with them. I did essentially the same thing with this Troop:


I guess the issue that I have is with so much filler-- trees, rocks, gravestones, etc.-- that the unit looks like a bunch of skirmishers rather than a fighting-strength regiment.

The minimum is just that, the bare minimum for official Mantic tournaments. Most people will likely want more models on their bases. So they look like solid formations.

I know I do!

Quick question: what does this mean for heavily proxied units?
Say, you field a large dragon as a horde of knights, or something like Darlord's insectoid army that used elves stats, or Daedleh's heavy chariots that were used as knight hordes, too?

They would certainly be fewer than 50% + 1 model but I would positively LOVE playing against them because they look so cool.

Similarly, but less extremely so, I have zombie units that feature large unit fillers, say, a Troll (which I wouldn't build anymore in this way since zombie trolls have become an option and I would now want to avoid the possible confusion), or a corpse cart. They also fail the 50% + 1 rule even though they look pretty dense to me.

Well it's irrelevant unless you are playing in an event that will require it. Proxies must fill the same volume as the model(s) they are representing and cannot have confusing imagery.

Dan has reworked and repainted his bugs because they were confusing to play against (and play with, even for him).

Anything heavily proxied like that needs to be run past tournament organisers.

I guess it would be jumping very much to very unwarranted conclusions to assume that Dan repainted these to become "secret army list no2" ? :p

He'd already done his repaints and work well before I invented the [REDACTED].

:p

I think it comes down to looks, personally. Azazel's regiments look good and are well painted, so most people would be happy to play against them. I also plan to use that system when I want to use my Rohan or Mordor forces in KOW.

If it looks lazy and is also unpainted or barely painted, I have less patience.

I really like the multibasing rules, two prevalent reason both of which stem from my army type.

I play undead.

1. Stretching boxes to extra regiments is great, its not especially being a cheapskate as I still have to have the base feeling full to me personally that means raiding a bits box I've built since I started wargaming years ago, its a GREAT excuse to use bits like the tombstones that came on my old GW skeleton sprues

2. Please tell me the last time you saw zombies "Rank up".....

For reference my zombie regiment bases have 14 zombies on them (70%) and it means I can really bunch them up and make them FEEL like a horde then add scenery aspects behind them

I plan on having 60 zombies on my zombie horde. And 80 on a legion.

Multibasing is really nice.

okay since i don't have my books yet i have to ask. can i have more models in a unit than stated?

I am using Arcane Legions minis for a Terra Cotta Army (not sure which rules yet, probably Elves), but the minis are tiny, 20mm i think to the top of the heads, might even be 15. But all ranked up they look great. Though monopose, it really fits the style as they are all animated statues. So can I place 7-8 across on the rows to fill out my units and possibly go a row deeper on the hordes to make it look like a huge block especially for the phalanx?

Kings of War is all about foot-print so I sincerely can't imagine a tournament organizer who would give you grief for that.

Bonus points for clever use of Arcane Legions, a game that introduced me to mass-battles and which I loved for far longer than it officially lasted. :-p