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Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
Kirasu wrote: Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
I think making a poll about it wouldn't be a bad idea, actually.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Kirasu wrote: Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
Probably. GW seems to think it's Airfix.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/09 13:49:48
Kirasu wrote: Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
I think making a poll about it wouldn't be a bad idea, actually.
Thinking about it, we're a highly biased section of the internet, as this forum is mainly focussed around the game, not the modelling aspect. The opposite would be true on a modelling site. We'd need to take that poll to the GW site itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/09 14:07:24
I believe that Games Workshop can't survive as a model company alone... (NOTE: I'd like to preface by saying that I'm looking at this from the point of new customers vs existing ones)
GW's appeal is highly tied to the "epic" battles of the 41st millenium. Customers are drawn in by encountering tabletops of hand-painted models on epic terrain (or word of mouth) for new entrants to the hobby. Once they've made their first buy in: their IP is such that the storyline feeds into the user's imagination, which leads to further sales (and hopefully superfans) Moving to a model-only structure is problematic in a few ways.
(a) Presently, GW's system leverages the game as fluff delivery. There are snippets of fluff on the webstore, but the fluff that is delivered with each physical model kit is practically non-existent. GW is so entrenched in the idea that customers who buy their products already know about their products that kits don't contain much information about weapon options, what they look like, or what the kit actually contains, other than something vauge and IP protectable like Tempestus Militarum Bullgryns. This is going to mean feth-all to a new customer, and the dearth of information is NOT a gateway into the GW IP universe. Another issue with the fluff is how all new fluff is just an exercise in hyperbole and IP protection: A hillarious example are the Khorne Wrathmongers - Even the name Wrathmonger is ridiculous. What are they... sellers of Wrath? Distributors of "Citadel Fine-Wrath"... and the webstore description...
"Lunatic murdersmiths who are feared and revered in equal measure, the Wrathmongers are absolute in their fervent devotion to Khorne. Infused with the unnatural energies of daemons, they are the elite of the Chaos tribes and are unstoppable in battle, hurling themselves at their foe with unnatural vigour as their wrath-flails describe brutal, bloody parabolas."
Lunatic MURDERSMITHGS???!?? Makers of the highest quality Citadel Fine-Murder??? Parabolas.... PARABOLAS???? Does the writer even know what a parabola is? Sure, you can get a parabola out of a chain if you whip it in a vertical fashion, but seriously... IMHO, GW's creative team is either vastly underpaid, or their over-mining of the existing fluff is scraping bottom or both! I think 1000 Jokero at 1000 typewriters could come up with evocative, but less ridiculous descriptions.
(b) But GW Black Library fluff exists outside the game you might say! This is true, but this stuff panders to the initiated. While a Forgeworld Siege of Vraks book might be totally awesome to us GW Grognards, it occupies the same niche as say "Ships of the Starfleet" (Star Trek) and the "Star Wars Visions"... They're cool buys for those in the fandom, but are so niche that they would be nothing more than curiosities to the casual passer-by. There's is nothing to draw new customers to something like the Horus Heresy books vs Frank Herbert's Dune series on a bookseller's shelf.
(c) This brings us to the AESTHETIC. This might be the most contentious assertion that I'm going to make... First off, there is no question that GW's models are TECHNICALLY brilliant. The issue is that as a range, as they move to more IP protectable imagery, the models have a tendency to move towards self-parody, as they take everything that makes GW models unique and pushes it past 11. Let's go back to the Wrathmongers and their Exalted Belt-buckles of Khorne - The Wrathmongers are a technically excellent execution of a terrible idea. The terrible idea being that the less ridiculous Skullreapers MUST be a dual kit, and that the new models need to be festooned in IP protectable imagery. The new models are designed to function with the GW IP and the GW IP only. The new terrain - the realm of battle, realmgates, Khorne Skull Castle of Skulls... this stuff is all excellently rendered, but has no usability outside the GW hobby.
In addition to this, GW's slavish adherence to heroic scale is making much of the range look dated compared to competing ranges which are, or are (glacially in the case of PP,) moving towards truescale. This has a tendency to make GW's human/elf aesthetic look very dated. IMHO, AoS was a great opportunity to move towards truescale for the fantasy range, but GW apparently knows better and is stubbornly going down the same road. Considering how polarizing the Sigmarine release was (either love-or-hate), this doesn't bode well for GW if they were to become a model only company. There's plenty of other ways to get bulky armored dudes.
(d) The price. GW will be forced to lower prices if they go to models only. The only reason that models can sustain such high prices is because the game system suggests a value added system when you purchase the pieces. Look at competing miniature ranges with NO RULES such as Reaper and Dark Sword. These guys produce high quality metals directly targeted at the collector / RPG market (if you discount the old items in their ranges... very old if you consider Reaper) and sell at a fraction of GW. This is because they know nobody is going to buy a Pathfinder Wizard for $35, extra options or not!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/09 14:18:34
Kirasu wrote: Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
I think making a poll about it wouldn't be a bad idea, actually.
Thinking about it, we're a highly biased section of the internet, as this forum is mainly focussed around the game, not the modelling aspect. The opposite would be true on a modelling site. We'd need to take that poll to the GW site itself.
That is true, and unfortunately I fear GW will never care enough to put a poll like that on their site.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Bottle wrote: I wonder, in this hypothetical situation, what game we would be able to play with our minis in a GW store.
Anyway, I would keep buying. I already have enough rules from GW and lots of armies I still want to make to go with them.
Less of an issue here in the US where you're more likely to have a Bigfoot sighting than see a GW store.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Bottle wrote: I wonder, in this hypothetical situation, what game we would be able to play with our minis in a GW store.
Anyway, I would keep buying. I already have enough rules from GW and lots of armies I still want to make to go with them.
Less of an issue here in the US where you're more likely to have a Bigfoot sighting than see a GW store.
In that scenario you wouldn't play any game in a GW Store as there would be no space for that. There would be no table as it wouldn't be necessary - they wouldn't be a gaming company anymore, they now sell premium plastic miniatures for collecting purposes, not gaming.
At the most you'd be able to assemble and paint something there? Maybe, perhaps, if they're feeling generous enough to place a station there.
...forget about it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/09 15:02:40
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Logic says i would still buy cool models but wouldn't buy as many as i do now.
After all, for gaming I have to buy a minimum of 2 troops choices for every race which are essentially the same more often than not. As a painter and collector I wouldn't need 2.
I would say i am a painter / collector and gamer so both go hand in hand so if you remove the gaming aspect they essentially just become collectibles which I stopped buying years ago.
However having said that in 2009 I started building up a full Ultramarines Secend Company.
There was no reason for it back then, I would only rarely get to play with if at all as we don't play Apocalypse, and even now with 7th Edition I would rarely use it all.
So I guess I do collect things which serve no gaming purpose.
Then again on the flip side there are models I have bought and painted that I really don't like but I "need" for gaming.
The two obvious examples would be the Storm Raven and Storm Talon - hate the models, still do but you need flyers in the current game so needed them really.
I guess look at Forge World. They have sold a lot of Warlord Titans, but how many people will actually game with them?
It's a tougher question to answer than i thought but GW get a fair bit of money out of me now as I can collect, paint and game with my man dollies.
If I didn't game with them I don't know what I would do with them....
A quick question for you, out of honest curiosity: what if you were introduced to the hobby without the tabletop game? As in here are these cool looking miniatures from a sci-fi universe. You can buy and paint and collect them, but that's it. There are also books about the universe that you can buy and read. There's no game, no way to use the miniatures apart from being displayed in your glass cabinet.
That's a fair question and I love the 40K setting and "most" of the designs that go with it. I would still read a ton of the fiction and background books to go with them.
But would I have bought the models if there hadn't been a game to go with it?
Possibly, but not to the extent I do now. I am a man in his forties who collects tiny plastic soldiers, and has spent a ridicilous amount of money on them. In the past i also used to collect Stars wars toys, comics and all the associated stuff and large action figures, kits etc. I stopped buying those, not because I thought they were childish or anything like that, but because they took up way too much space and were a pain to keep tidy.
But then I have 5 Ikeas Detolf cabinets full of painted miniatures, a 6ft by 4ft walk in cupboard full to the ceiling of unpainted figures and a huge 2 door custom cabinet for my large FW models.
If I wasn't gaming with my minis and just collected them I couldn't justify my house being taken over like that and they would probably all go into storage.
However if GW stopped producing rules but started to produce large scale, more detailed kits rather than in 28mm that might be a different story.
Bottle wrote: I wonder, in this hypothetical situation, what game we would be able to play with our minis in a GW store.
Anyway, I would keep buying. I already have enough rules from GW and lots of armies I still want to make to go with them.
Less of an issue here in the US where you're more likely to have a Bigfoot sighting than see a GW store.
In that scenario you wouldn't play any game in a GW Store as there would be no space for that. There would be no table as it wouldn't be necessary - they wouldn't be a gaming company anymore, they now sell premium plastic miniatures for collecting purposes, not gaming.
At the most you'd be able to assemble and paint something there? Maybe, perhaps, if they're feeling generous enough to place a station there.
...forget about it.
I don't play games in GW stores anyway, there's one in my entire state and you have actually know where it is to find it.
To me without a game there would be literally be zero reason for me to own any GW miniatures. The game's bad enough but it's still somewhat ubiquitous around here and hasn't been completely replaced by WM/H or X-Wing (though it's much easier to find an X-Wing tournament than a 40K one). I know that people like the "fluff" but I've tried to read several black library books and have yet been able to finish one; it's more like pulp fiction (not the movie) rather than literature and I can see some of the attraction but there's only so much of reading about lone marines wiping out entire planets you can take before you just sigh and put it down (yes, that's a gross exaggeration).
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Bottle wrote: I wonder, in this hypothetical situation, what game we would be able to play with our minis in a GW store.
Anyway, I would keep buying. I already have enough rules from GW and lots of armies I still want to make to go with them.
Less of an issue here in the US where you're more likely to have a Bigfoot sighting than see a GW store.
In that scenario you wouldn't play any game in a GW Store as there would be no space for that. There would be no table as it wouldn't be necessary - they wouldn't be a gaming company anymore, they now sell premium plastic miniatures for collecting purposes, not gaming.
At the most you'd be able to assemble and paint something there? Maybe, perhaps, if they're feeling generous enough to place a station there.
...forget about it.
I don't play games in GW stores anyway, there's one in my entire state and you have actually know where it is to find it.
To me without a game there would be literally be zero reason for me to own any GW miniatures. The game's bad enough but it's still somewhat ubiquitous around here and hasn't been completely replaced by WM/H or X-Wing (though it's much easier to find an X-Wing tournament than a 40K one). I know that people like the "fluff" but I've tried to read several black library books and have yet been able to finish one; it's more like pulp fiction (not the movie) rather than literature and I can see some of the attraction but there's only so much of reading about lone marines wiping out entire planets you can take before you just sigh and put it down (yes, that's a gross exaggeration).
I don't/didn't play either (no official GW store here in Portugal) but I am just hazarding a guess as to what one would expect if GW did go "full modelling" mode.
Though I do find the idea of several painting stations set side by side to be quite a charming way to promote the hobby.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/09 15:19:00
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Kirasu wrote: Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
I think making a poll about it wouldn't be a bad idea, actually.
Thinking about it, we're a highly biased section of the internet, as this forum is mainly focussed around the game, not the modelling aspect. The opposite would be true on a modelling site. We'd need to take that poll to the GW site itself.
That's a good point, actually.
Going to Armorama, a major AFV modelling forum, there is almost no GW content. Except for talking about paints, the last time a GW model was mentioned was in 2011 as far as I can see.
Kirasu wrote: Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
I think making a poll about it wouldn't be a bad idea, actually.
Thinking about it, we're a highly biased section of the internet, as this forum is mainly focussed around the game, not the modelling aspect. The opposite would be true on a modelling site. We'd need to take that poll to the GW site itself.
That's a good point, actually.
Going to Armorama, a major AFV modelling forum, there is almost no GW content. Except for talking about paints, the last time a GW model was mentioned was in 2011 as far as I can see.
There's a few guys doing 40k stuff on the more Sci-Fi focussed Modelgeek section of site, but that is all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/09 15:29:55
Just a thought.. could the "we're a model company" idea be tied more to them wanting to be more like a company that controls the IP, and have some other company take over more of the game production? There's already Fantasy Flight doing the RPG and all those ipad game companies. Would GW ever dump the games onto someone else, and focus on just models & fluffbooks?
Bottle wrote: I wonder, in this hypothetical situation, what game we would be able to play with our minis in a GW store.
Anyway, I would keep buying. I already have enough rules from GW and lots of armies I still want to make to go with them.
Less of an issue here in the US where you're more likely to have a Bigfoot sighting than see a GW store.
In that scenario you wouldn't play any game in a GW Store as there would be no space for that. There would be no table as it wouldn't be necessary - they wouldn't be a gaming company anymore, they now sell premium plastic miniatures for collecting purposes, not gaming.
At the most you'd be able to assemble and paint something there? Maybe, perhaps, if they're feeling generous enough to place a station there.
...forget about it.
Hit the nail on the head. Why have gaming tables, if you don't sell any games? Hell, as it is, a lot of GW stores already don't have game tables.
Would I buy from GW if they were a minis-only company? Maybe if they had always been so. As it stands, all of the reasons I don't buy from them currently would still exist, so no. It doesn't matter, though. Discontinuing all rules would be a death knell for GW. If they ever did, they'd be filing for bankruptcy within 12 months.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
Necros wrote: Just a thought.. could the "we're a model company" idea be tied more to them wanting to be more like a company that controls the IP, and have some other company take over more of the game production? There's already Fantasy Flight doing the RPG and all those ipad game companies. Would GW ever dump the games onto someone else, and focus on just models & fluffbooks?
You could easily think of this more pronounced statement of "we're models first" as being a result of the Chapterhouse lawsuit. If their models can be construed as works of art and not toys, they have more control. That said, I never see GW outsourcing their rules writing as long as the models are even remotely tied to a game.
I think killing 40k would destroy them as a company which explains why they've slowing been transitioning the game more towards AoS type gameplay with the Decurion style books and add-ons rather than an abrupt change like we saw with fantasy getting the knife.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Genuine question, no hidden agenda:
Whats the difference between a games company, hobby company, toy company, model company or some combination thereof?
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
If they made the models and handed the rules writing off to a different company I'd be on board. If they only made models without making rules, that'd kind of suck since I wouldn't have much to do with my minis aside from play old rulesets of an unsupported game that almost definitely won't attract any new players.
Ratius wrote: Genuine question, no hidden agenda:
Whats the difference between a games company, hobby company, toy company, model company or some combination thereof?
As agnosto mentions above you, it came to light during the Chapterhouse case that toys have signifcantly reduced periods of copyright protection compared to collectors' items. Memory is hazy on this one, you'll have to get the details from those threads, but IIRC we could be hassling GW for the right to make stuff they last made? created? not more than a decade ago. How that would interact with the LotR licence, I have no idea, though I suspect those designs are covered for longer.
It's in GW's best interest not to be labelled as a toy company. Beyond that, the names are possibly no more than a description of where marketing or production focus lies.
Adding to what Momotaro stated. I believe that being labeled a "toy", at least in UK law, means less copyright protections as came out when some company in the UK was able to thumb their nose at Lucas Arts over making something or other several years ago.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Well, if they were only a model company it really would not matter what they made or when.
We would then have to depend on some other group to make rules much like Kings Of War has taken over for Fantasy Battle.
I think GW would not take kindly of other groups deciding the "value" of a given model for them.
It really would raise the question of why would I want a squad of 10?
5 models even?
A single maybe?
If they truly mean what they say, I fully expect them to fail in a big way.
I think of Jah and that yes being in it only for the models is well and good.
But he does make an income by painting models.
How many pay because they want to have a piece of his artwork?
How many pay because they just want their models painted to look good so they can play?
I think if the rules dry-up so too would most painting services at least for GW product.
Possibly another victim to GW policy much like Miniwargaming.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Taken like this, a lot of their core models are actually decent value. A squad of 40k troops is often a great skirmish force, with a lot of weapon choices.
True. And a single dreadspears box can be an entire 'heavy foot' unit.
agnosto wrote:but there's only so much of reading about lone marines wiping out entire planets you can take before you just sigh and put it down (yes, that's a gross exaggeration).
What, only put it down? I never truly understood the 'throw the book at the wall' saying until I started buying BL.
agnosto wrote:
Necros wrote: Just a thought.. could the "we're a model company" idea be tied more to them wanting to be more like a company that controls the IP, and have some other company take over more of the game production? There's already Fantasy Flight doing the RPG and all those ipad game companies. Would GW ever dump the games onto someone else, and focus on just models & fluffbooks?
You could easily think of this more pronounced statement of "we're models first" as being a result of the Chapterhouse lawsuit. If their models can be construed as works of art and not toys, they have more control. That said, I never see GW outsourcing their rules writing as long as the models are even remotely tied to a game.
I think killing 40k would destroy them as a company which explains why they've slowing been transitioning the game more towards AoS type gameplay with the Decurion style books and add-ons rather than an abrupt change like we saw with fantasy getting the knife.
Yup. I think there's that old element of control in the rules - the codex creep, rules churn, buffing and nerfing etc. - that might mean GW don't want to pass them on to anyone else, let alone discard them completely as a 'shopping guide'. (or as a cattle prod) Can't let FF tinker with the rules - they might accidentally introduce some balance or limiting factor or continuity that means you only need to buy and keep a certain number of minis. Horrifying!
jah-joshua wrote: @Vermis: again, when have i ever insulted gamers, or said i had a problem with gamers???
i am very passionate about wargaming miniatures, art, fiction, and painting, just not the actual wargaming...
what is so wrong about saying where my priorities lie???
just read the two things that have been posted under "interests" on my profile since day one, for 9 years now...
cheers
jah
I think you must have hit a sore spot with the girls comment
Not personally a sore spot of mine, but I just find it curious that this specific... "priority" is repeatedly brought about in the typical dismissive "shut up and deal with it nub, this is just a game" post.
Like I said, it's quaint .
once again, you are putting words in my mouth...
i have never said, "shut up and deal with it noob, this is just a game", nor am i dismissive of other people's perspective in this hobby...
3/4 of my closest friends are gamers, including my little brother, and i respect all of them...
i only speak about myself, not others...
i don't know what your problem with me is, but maybe you should ask someone what they meant, instead of just jumping to judgement...
i value the existence of gamers very much, i just don't happen to be one...
the question was, "Would you still buy GW models if they weren't involved in making rules for a game to play them in?"
my answer is yes, of course, because i have never been interested in gaming, but i am a huge fan of the GW aesthetic...
thitry years ago, i walked into a model shop, saw GW minis on the rack, and fell in love...
Dragons, Chaos Dwarves, Undead, Centaurs, and Nazgul all seemed so much cooler the than real world scale models i had been building and painting up to that point...
then i found out there were books loaded with art and stories, and was hooked for life...
playing the game never factored into it, but painting became an obsession...
I think of Jah and that yes being in it only for the models is well and good.
But he does make an income by painting models.
How many pay because they want to have a piece of his artwork?
How many pay because they just want their models painted to look good so they can play?
I think if the rules dry-up so too would most painting services at least for GW product.
Possibly another victim to GW policy much like Miniwargaming.
this is an interesting point, and illustrates the importance of why i would never sling insults at gamers...
gamers provide about 3/4 of my income, and i really care about bringing their visions to life...
if the rules dried-up, my GW mini painting commissions would certainly see a decline, but i don't think it would dry-up completely...
there are still collectors of display minis out there who have a soft spot for GW stuff...
not that i want to see the GW games die out, i don't, i'm just not personally invested in playing the games...
if the rules for GW games did dry up, my business would just shift to painting Infinity, WarmaHordes, Malifaux, and such...
people hire me both because they want my work, AND because they want good looking models to play with...
with my prices, there are plenty of cheaper options out there if a client is not interested in having a piece of MY artwork...
clients don't hire me for generic "good" paintjobs, but for unique takes on old themes, and meticulous attention to detail...
that said, i am definitely concerned about GW management's seeming determination to piss off and drive away so many of their loyal customers...
i don't want to limit the pool of potential clients for my painted models...
on the other hand, branching out into getting commissions for other companies' minis is not a bad thing...
i am happy to paint any quality sculpt...
I think that part of the 'We are a model company!' stance is from the IP issues (misunderstood by the folks who are in charge) and in part from the disconnect that the folks at the top of GW have from who actually buys their toys and games.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Yup. I think there's that old element of control in the rules - the codex creep, rules churn, buffing and nerfing etc. - that might mean GW don't want to pass them on to anyone else, let alone discard them completely as a 'shopping guide'. (or as a cattle prod) Can't let FF tinker with the rules - they might accidentally introduce some balance or limiting factor or continuity that means you only need to buy and keep a certain number of minis. Horrifying!
Quite interesting. I have ruminated on same for a while.
However - a tight ruleset dosent necessarily mean limited model sales.
E.g. SM Terminators get some love.
Premise:
Every geezer and his dog owns Termies (space hulk sculpts, 2nd ed, ebay, cheap kits, players seeing them as "filler" etc).
FF rewrite their rules and GW co-releases a new kit - more options, more dynamic, more "cool!".
Would they sell or not?
Yes imho.
So the game balance can go inherently with "we are an elite model making company who sells premium price "sculpts" "
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
yes, I would buy the models on the proviso that any other company they hired to write the rules would do a better job, you would still have codex creep however because GW would still have creative control.
The short answer is that, yes, I would buy GW models just for the fun of modelling. Since I do this with PP and Infinity models, I don't see why it would be any different.
But no, this would be at terrible idea, because I wouldn't buy nearly as many models. I'd be buying a squad of space marines, instead of like, 6 for every chapter I model. I have 1 drop pod instead of like... uhh.. I lost count. I'd have one stormraven, not 3. And on and on.
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Kirasu wrote: Without a game, GW models would be bought at staggeringly lower amounts. If you're someone who has *actually* played other wargames (IE non-GW), especially in the 90s, you'll recall many games which ended and with them virtually everyone stopped buying the models.
GW seems to think there are lots of collectors that just mindlessly buy models for no reason. I suspect that the amount of true collectors that don't play the game is drastically lower than their predictions.
Without a game context, there would be lower sales in every way for models for both gamers and non-gamers, I think. It certainly would be so for me.
I don't agree that collectors mindlessly buy models for no reason, though. I have a friend who buys a LOT of Forge World, but doesn't play 30k because, well, the rest of us want to play 40k. So, effectively, he's a FW collector -- but he doesn't just buy them because he's a shopping cart zombie. He loves the models, enjoys modelling and painting them, and loves the completed model -- therin lies his value. The way he looks at it, if a model takes him 100 hours to complete and costs $300 to buy, that's $3 / hour of entertainment, and he's ok with that.
For me, personally, I have no problem spending the 100 hours on the same model, but I'd just rather spend it on a model that I can ALSO play with after in a game, even if it's only a few times
In addition, I consider myself a both a collector and a gamer, but in truth, I model and paint at least 20x more than I game, and I buy way more stuff than I can reasonably model and paint. Practically, over years, what happens is, my favorite factions get 100% of their models painted (though they pile up, and then I paint them all at once), and about 50% get decent game time. And then it falls off a cliff from there: the factions I don't really identify with as much, but I love the models of, I'll just randomly paint stuff here and there for fun -- but I may have on my shelf a pretty complete set of brand new or in-progress models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/09 22:52:14