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I have been spending some time recently going back over my collection of White Dwarfs, ranging from around issues 60-200.
What has become incredibly obvious is that GW has long since given up on being a rules company. More specifically the very name Games Workpshop used to be entirely accurate. Almost every issue showed of something new and creative. New systems, new mini games, new settings or new material on existing ones. They produced a smorgasbord of different games, in different scales. Some didn't even need miniatures!
I think GW overshot the ideal point for a gaming company. When they were young they had so many ideas, so many games and terrible models. Now they have (largely) great models but no creative spark or variation. I think the ideal is somewhere in between personally and when they went too far into the miniatures side I lost interest. I might occassionally pick something up but, without a game to use it in, there is far less motivation.
To to OP's question: Nope. I would not buy the models if there wasn't a game. I got into this hobby because a friend introduced me to the Dawn of War PC game, and then the tabletop game. I had not picked up a paintbrush in 15 years before he encouraged me to try out 40k. I paint and model in order to play the game. Do I think some of the models are cool? Yes, in the context of the game. They are also absurdly expensive, and I would never have bought them on their own just to paint and collect them. Luckily (in some ways) I got started in this hobby just as many people are walking away, so I have gotten a lot of models second-hand for way less than retail. Thanks GW!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/16 15:07:15
I have probably 30k+ pts of WH40k, bought new armies and grew the old ones continously. Since GW dropped the ball with the rules, I have not bought a thing from them. Their miniatures are too specific in style to fit into anything else, so I see no need to buy anything of what they make.
All my friends also dropped out around that time, all of them have many huge armies now stuffed away in attics.
While I don't disagree that the game's the thing, I can't help a twinge of dismay at the view that GW's game is the only thing for 40K minis. Which is in comparison to... what? The half-dozen other games at the top of the ICV2 list, with specific minis married to specific rules, married to an ostensibly distinctive setting?
They're your minis to do with what you like: that includes letting them lie to gather dust and an occasional bitter glance. But there's a bigger gaming ecosystem and approaches out there than some seem to suspect, where 40K minis might fit in with a minimum of jiggling, and IMO it's a lost opportunity to assume it can't be done.
I have probably 30k+ pts of WH40k, bought new armies and grew the old ones continously. Since GW dropped the ball with the rules, I have not bought a thing from them. Their miniatures are too specific in style to fit into anything else, so I see no need to buy anything of what they make.
All my friends also dropped out around that time, all of them have many huge armies now stuffed away in attics.
While I don't disagree that the game's the thing, I can't help a twinge of dismay at the view that GW's game is the only thing for 40K minis. Which is in comparison to... what? The half-dozen other games at the top of the ICV2 list, with specific minis married to specific rules, married to an ostensibly distinctive setting?
They're your minis to do with what you like: that includes letting them lie to gather dust and an occasional bitter glance. But there's a bigger gaming ecosystem and approaches out there than some seem to suspect, where 40K minis might fit in with a minimum of jiggling, and IMO it's a lost opportunity to assume it can't be done.
GW remains one of the very few companies that I can think of to actively tell retailers to discourage people from using their miniatures for other games. (The used to be the only, and then the Mutant Chronicles collectible mini game came out - in a completely different scale so folks could neither use the miniatures in most other games nor use other minis in the MC game... note that the Mutant Chronicles collectible game crashed and burned.)
And by 'actively' I mean literally telling the retailer to discourage folks from using Warhammer minis for the then new D&D third edition.
The Auld Grump - the retailer concerned laughed at the GW rep.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/16 23:50:01
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Their miniatures are too specific in style to fit into anything else, so I see no need to buy anything of what they make.
I think you guys missed this line and jumped to start complaining about "gamers these days."
The reality is this: Some games have very interesting and pretty well defined settings, that is what draws people to those settings and thus the miniatures for those settings.
It isn't because they can't think of doing anything else, but more like they like the world it's set in.
I mean, why don't you play Fantasy Garbledeblook game? Probably because you don't like the setting, and that's fine. It's the same reason why even if they are available, you're probably not mising Star Wars minis and Star Trek minis in the same game unless you're really, really trying too hard.
Their miniatures are too specific in style to fit into anything else, so I see no need to buy anything of what they make.
I think you guys missed this line and jumped to start complaining about "gamers these days."
The reality is this: Some games have very interesting and pretty well defined settings, that is what draws people to those settings and thus the miniatures for those settings.
It isn't because they can't think of doing anything else, but more like they like the world it's set in.
I mean, why don't you play Fantasy Garbledeblook game? Probably because you don't like the setting, and that's fine. It's the same reason why even if they are available, you're probably not mixing Star Wars minis and Star Trek minis in the same game unless you're really, really trying too hard.
Or, in the case of Games Workshop they take a decent fantasy setting and turn it into Garbledeblook.
Generic fantasy sells, in part, because it can be used for a wide selection of games.
Meanwhile, GW is trying to get the worst of both worlds.... (let's rename everything! That'll make it sell, right?!)
It is quite possible for them to destroy their market by making the figures not only too specialized for other games, but so over the top stupid looking that the rules would be the only reason to buy the over priced bit of plastic garbage.
The Auld Grump - let's do a giant eagle - with a trailer hitch!
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Their miniatures are too specific in style to fit into anything else, so I see no need to buy anything of what they make.
I think you guys missed this line and jumped to start complaining about "gamers these days."
And you're doing what 'gamers these days' do, which is to think of it in a restricted, branded way and miss the point.
The idea that if you try to squeeze a redundant collection of minis into an alternative ruleset, you then also have to squeeze them into an alternative setting, is exhibit A, the prime example, one of the biggest fallacies in wargaming. The three things are different entities. It might be a difficult concept to swallow and go about with, what with GW's practise of webbing and binding minis and fluff to the rules with a plethora of unit-specific, even model-specific special rules, and their most direct or imitative competitors following suit (I know all about the rule cards of Warmachine and Malifaux - I've still got a bunch round here somewhere); but it's not impossible, and if one of that trio - GW's crappy rules - is causing you to all but abandon the other two - aaall those minis you bought and played with, and all the fluff you've internalised - it's recommended too.
What do you think I'm saying? That those murderclawfangwolf space marines can pop straight into Warmachine as a peculiar Khador army, or Infinity as various Ariadna wolves, or one of the two or three other most well known sewn-up sci-fi or sci-fantasy skirmishes? That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you can take those two reluctantly shelved elements - the minis and the background swirling about them - and use them with a set of pure or almost-pure rules. Sci-fi skirmish rules designed not to restrict the minis you have, but to allow them.
There are examples I haven't read through yet, like Stargrunt, 5150, Tomorrow's War and others. Heck, if Mantic don't come up with lists to let you plug your 40K armies into Warpath or Firefight, I'd be very surprised. If they can't already slot into Enforcer, Marauder, Asterian etc. lists. (And no, I'm not saying that means you have to slot them into Mantic's sci-fi universe, either. They're still MurderfangWolves vs. Orks and Eldar if you want them to be. It's just the tape measuring and dice rolling that's changed a bit.) But the one that springs to my mind first, as an example, is Victory Decision: Future Combat. Doesn't matter if you pass that up for other rules, or just let your 40K collections still moulder in the attic: just look at the page. Look at the ranges of minis in the example pics. Look at the menus of resources to the left. Look at the design notes that tell you and further down the page show you what you can do with this set of rules ("I wanted a ruleset that would give me the opportunity to play with almost any SF miniature available...") Look at the not-Star Wars conversions from his own collection. The only reason he doesn't use GW minis for these examples is, as he's said, because they won't let 'im. But then look here at a guy who's plugging his own murderdeathwolves into the rules, and getting help and discussion about it. Here's his introductory paragraph to the topic:
My game club is very heavy into 40k, but recent developments in the 40k game have driven many to start looking at other systems. I picked up Victory Decision Future Combat recently, so I thought it would be fun to come up with a scenario showing that you can (gasp) use your existing figures in another rules set and still have fun in a universe that they enjoy.
Does that first line look familiar at all? Heck, does the rest of it look like it's been mentioned recently too? I have no doubt that someone's going to stomp in here with something along the lines of "I mentioned some rules in the middle of clearing my throat once upon a time and nobody lifted their heads from their warcasting/fate cheating/remote hacking so it's pointless whatcha gonna do about it tough guy?" But who was that guy I originally responded to? Illumini? 30K+ pts of 40K, multiple armies! A bunch of friends with multiple big armies! All lying around doing nothing! That's pointless in my eyes. I gave up 40K long before that, but the only reason my minis are still sitting around is because of ViDe:FuCo. What have you got to lose, apart from, what, thirteen bucks? How much more was spent - and lost - on those 30K points? Why not sit down to bash out some stats and equipment, and use tiny portions of those enormous 40K armies to host and display some intro games and scenarios with an inclusive set of rules?
By all means, buy different games that have different minis and different backgrounds, play as many different games as you like, there are loads out there; but are you doing so because you're treating it as some weird, poorly-reasoned path of least resistance once 40K's fallen out of favour? (The path where marketing, hype and unawareness makes you buy all-new armies of expensive minis that you have to build and paint, and different rules you have to learn, rather than go through the unimaginable torment and hardship of looking at different rules alone?)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheAuldGrump wrote: Or, in the case of Games Workshop they take a decent fantasy setting and turn it into Garbledeblook.
Generic fantasy sells, in part, because it can be used for a wide selection of games.
Meanwhile, GW is trying to get the worst of both worlds.... (let's rename everything! That'll make it sell, right?!)
It is quite possible for them to destroy their market by making the figures not only too specialized for other games, but so over the top stupid looking that the rules would be the only reason to buy the over priced bit of plastic garbage.
I agree about 'generic' fantasy, but heck, you can even drop ridiculously specific AoS minis into setting-free rules, and still fight over the various realms of the bubble universe, or whatever it's called this month. It, or at least the concept, is just that easy. The most you might miss are the overpowered special rules and lack of balance.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/10/17 21:52:26
TheAuldGrump wrote: Or, in the case of Games Workshop they take a decent fantasy setting and turn it into Garbledeblook.
Generic fantasy sells, in part, because it can be used for a wide selection of games.
Meanwhile, GW is trying to get the worst of both worlds.... (let's rename everything! That'll make it sell, right?!)
It is quite possible for them to destroy their market by making the figures not only too specialized for other games, but so over the top stupid looking that the rules would be the only reason to buy the over priced bit of plastic garbage.
I agree about 'generic' fantasy, but heck, you can even drop ridiculously specific AoS minis into setting-free rules, and still fight over the various realms of the bubble universe, or whatever it's called this month. It, or at least the concept, is just that easy. The most you might miss are the overpowered special rules and lack of balance.
My point is not that I 'can't' it is that I wouldn't want to - they look stupid!
Karl Franz on his Thunder Chicken was what made me decide to get Kings of War.... (I miss the good old days, when the Emperor was an ineffectual man, chosen by the Elector Counts because they could push him around....)
And do not get me started on the demon thing with skulls popping out like a teen's acne after a pizza party.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
At the price GW is asking few models are cool enough to warrant buying for fun. Maybe a kit or two. Without a game behind it there is no reason to buy an army from them. Plenty of people make great models for cheaper prices that work fine for display or modeling.
TheAuldGrump wrote: And do not get me started on the demon thing with skulls popping out like a teen's acne after a pizza party.
The Auld Grump
You mean the one with the skull canon that shoots giant flaming skulls that explode into smaller skulls?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
TheAuldGrump wrote: And do not get me started on the demon thing with skulls popping out like a teen's acne after a pizza party.
The Auld Grump
You mean the one with the skull canon that shoots giant flaming skulls that explode into smaller skulls?
Naw, I think he means the AoS knornenator model or whatever silly name it has.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Oh right, the pile of skulls with some skin wrapped around it and animated by skull magic.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
jonolikespie wrote: Oh right, the pile of skulls with some skin wrapped around it and animated by skull magic.
Filled with skulls, powered by skulls, invented by skulls, fire skulls out of its skulls, eats skulls, sleeps skulls, dreams skulls, skulls, skulls, skulls...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 07:18:32
Stormonu wrote: Would you still buy GW's models if they weren't involved in making the rules for a game to play them in?
Would I spend 60€ on a 1:48 tank model with no photo-etched parts, no machined barrel, and where you have to actually paint lights, glasses and optics to pretend they're transparent?
HELL NO !
That land raider thing is worth ten bucks. Maybe twelve.
I'm willing to spend 30€ for the latest mecha, though.
Spoiler:
What? 120€? Are you fething kidding me? It's way more expensive than any 75mm mounted mini from Pegaso. Come on, we're talking about two pounds of pewter cast by an italian artisan.
It's even more expensive than Artesania Latina's Mayflower, a 2 ft long model made of wood and brass...
What's the next step ? A plastic Greater Daemon that costs more than the Hermione? Or than 90mm knights?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 13:37:52
And they don't make any lotion for that condition.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
If GW was truly trying to make premium models they would make single large models with mixed material parts armor modelers have grown used to.
With the "heroic" look of their miniatures, other miniature companies are swiftly overtaking them.
I have not used the words "beautiful" or "gorgeous" in regards to their models for quite some time.
"Awesome" on occasion but mainly in regards to Forgeworld models.
Heck, I am still building IG from the 20-man pack from back in the day so it makes me ask why stay backwards compatible for so long except out of laziness?
Lately, if you want juvenile looking miniatures and get to play with them well: look no farther than "Skylanders" or the various me-too games out.
Then you can collect what you want and play with them (kinda).
I must admit, I grabbed a couple of those to play with my kids, oddly we each have grown rather attached to certain models due to their style of play so the "variants" get grabbed as well.
6th GW was losing me, 7th it was pretty much done.
I have all I need to play pretty much what I want and unless they can make something truly fantastic, GW games are pretty much dead to me and soon as well their models.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
And they don't make any lotion for that condition.
The Auld Grump
I think they do, actually. It's called "Green Stuff."
Having recently received my Kingdom Death pledge (finally!), any lingering ideas of GW being a "model company" were completely eradicated. Regardless of how you feel about the aesthetic, the technical detail and artistry are unparalleled. No other plastic kit I've seen even comes close. GW's "best miniatures in the world" line is straight up laughable, even more so than before.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
And they don't make any lotion for that condition.
The Auld Grump
I think they do, actually. It's called "Green Stuff."
Having recently received my Kingdom Death pledge (finally!), any lingering ideas of GW being a "model company" were completely eradicated. Regardless of how you feel about the aesthetic, the technical detail and artistry are unparalleled. No other plastic kit I've seen even comes close. GW's "best miniatures in the world" line is straight up laughable, even more so than before.
I actually like the Dreamforge Games kits better than the Kingdom Death kits - but both are better than GW.
Though the only KD figure that I have painted was the booby monster... which made me very glad that it wasn't mine - I would have melted from shame when my good lady saw it. Being able to tell her, with a straight face, that it was a commission made me much, much happier. She is a professional artist, and understands that the customer is always right....
The Auld Grump - that thing looked like something that had drunk too much of the milk of Shub-Niggurath....
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
If GW was truly trying to make premium models they would make single large models with mixed material parts armor modelers have grown used to.
... ...
GW aren't trying to make premium models. They are trying to make cheap models mass produced by injection moulding in polystyrene they can sell at premium prices because people are hooked on official Warhammer models.
Kilkrazy wrote: GW aren't trying to make premium models. They are trying to make cheap models mass produced by injection moulding in polystyrene they can sell at premium prices because people are hooked on official Warhammer models.
Hence why I laugh when I see those financial reports when they mention their product is premium or compare to a Ferrari.
I am used-to GW models, I find some joy in doing the next similar model a bit better than the last each time.
But when you have a collection, a multitude of these models, they beg to be played.
I would never, EVER, think of getting a bunch of similar models only for display unless it was a diorama.
Get a couple of each and that is PLENTY for display.
It would be like me buying my first Spitfire model kit, then buying a bunch of them so I can have a squadron... just because, that never entered my young little mind back then.
Kingdom Death I think would kill me as a modeler because I would want to do justice to each model in assembly and painting... it would take an eternity.
Never mind being faced with a horde of options to the build... blue-tac would be your friend for a bit.
I think I would be happy... though that wet-nurse monster model thingy would certainly make you look around a bit before you plunk that down on the table.
GW wants us to buy in bulk AND get "fancy" models... a rather confused way to go.
I feel somewhat ... free that GW has removed every reason why anyone should adhere to their "official Warhammer" models other than for gaming in their stores.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/19 20:53:15
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
And they don't make any lotion for that condition.
The Auld Grump
I think they do, actually. It's called "Green Stuff."
Having recently received my Kingdom Death pledge (finally!), any lingering ideas of GW being a "model company" were completely eradicated. Regardless of how you feel about the aesthetic, the technical detail and artistry are unparalleled. No other plastic kit I've seen even comes close. GW's "best miniatures in the world" line is straight up laughable, even more so than before.
I actually like the Dreamforge Games kits better than the Kingdom Death kits - but both are better than GW.
Though the only KD figure that I have painted was the booby monster... which made me very glad that it wasn't mine - I would have melted from shame when my good lady saw it. Being able to tell her, with a straight face, that it was a commission made me much, much happier. She is a professional artist, and understands that the customer is always right....
The Auld Grump - that thing looked like something that had drunk too much of the milk of Shub-Niggurath....
Dreamforge is neck-and-neck with KD on the plastic front, to be sure. A large part of that is probably due to them both being manufactured by Wargames Factory. WGF is really the premier manufacturer-for-hire in this industry.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
Well, to me, GW isn't a game company anymore. They just have people who sometimes write some lines involving throwing dice and using your collection on the board.
However, I would still buy from them if the models are nice and the price fair. Be it for the pleasure of collection or using for another game.
I must say their plastic models are very nice and easy to build and modify. Quite refreshing after dealing with horrible resin models or sturdy metal ones.
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
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