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Sword Of Caliban wrote: How are orks in the lead? They are nothing but an irritant to the superior technology and wisdom of the Necrontyr!!''
The Orks were created to fight the Necrons, they have absurdly vast numbers, their own wacky technology, and two mighty Warp entities on the same footing as the Emperor and the Chaos gods they can call upon.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Sword Of Caliban wrote: How are orks in the lead? They are nothing but an irritant to the superior technology and wisdom of the Necrontyr!!''
The Orks were created to fight the Necrons, they have absurdly vast numbers, their own wacky technology, and two mighty Warp entities on the same footing as the Emperor and the Chaos gods they can call upon.
Ah yes, they were created to destroy the Necrons and they did SUCH a good job of that in the first place.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Sword Of Caliban wrote: How are orks in the lead? They are nothing but an irritant to the superior technology and wisdom of the Necrontyr!!''
The Necrons do not strike me as wise. I mean, they've done a lot of betraying.... all of them are bound in tin cans...... most of them are dormant, doing nothing.... plenty of them are running the "I have no mouth and I must scream" deal (the ones who've gone insane).....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, they were created to destroy the Necrons and they did SUCH a good job of that in the first place.
meh. It's hard to kill things that hide. And in the meantime the Orks have become a basically intractable weed in the galaxy. If the Necrons were all that wise they would've killed the Orks while the killing was good.
Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote: That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Surely they would have easily destroyed the Eldar if a single Necron warrior was that powerful.
I agree it's a rather controversial statement, but let me provide a little evidence to back it up. Crunch-wise, Warriors and marines have nearly the same stats. Warriors have higher leadership, but marines have a higher initiative and a better armor save. However, warriors have reanimation protocols, and gauss weapons, while marines only have ATSKNF (I say only, but it's still a very powerful special rule). I think the warrior slightly edges out the marine based on these stats, but they're so close you could certainly make a good argument for the marine.
As for the necrons defeating the eldar, remember that right before the great sleep, the necrons were spent from their fight against the C'tan. Even after the loss of trillions of necrons in a matter of days during the war in heaven and probably the loss of billions more during the betrayal (Afaik there isn't a concrete stat on this), it took the combined onslaught of the eldar, orks, and powerful warp creatures to drive the necrons to hibernation. Iirc, the eldar were also far more populous than they were even before the fall. I'll try to find a direct citation to back that up, but here's some evidence to that effect. The necron 5th ed codex mentions the necrons of Zappanec defeating a massive eldar fleet, one so large it left the entire planet surrounded by orbiting metal for 60 million years. Surely the eldar must have had a truly immense population to be able to shrug off a loss such as that.
To summarize: I think that by taking into account fluff as well as the model's tabletop stats, a necron warrior is at least comparable to a space marine, possibly even more powerful.
Stats mean nothing, they're an abstraction for an illusion of some sort of balance and do not reflect on 40k at all. A couple hundred Space Marines sacked a Tomb World and purged it of its Warriors, and the Black Templars also demolished a Necron Tomb World with their swords (which were not powered). Necrons are indeed incredibly dangerous, but that's just their guns, ships, and esoteric infantry. Basic Necron infantry isn't much to write home about besides the ability to reform themselves after being shot by most weapons.
But the issue is that for all the Orks' ability, they simply have nothing to hold against the Necrons in space, whose ships are as close to invincible as you can get in 40K, and out-shoot everything in it. Especially if the Celestial Orrery can actually be used as a weapon in a suitable timeframe, because getting every star in the galaxy to pop within a couple centuries of each other would set off a salvo of gamma ray bursts that would probably kill all life in the galaxy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/15 06:25:04
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
I think I saw something in the Necron Fluff that stated with each death, a necron warrior comes back a little weaker in the sanity department. Would this not greatly weaken their forces over a prolonged stalemate?
Also, in a scenario where orks are fighting only Necrons, I feel like it would make sense for orks to begin adapting necron technology for their own needs once they start looting their defeated foes. While this tech would probably not be as effective, I feel like it would give orks access to a whole new array of deadly toys to fight back with, closing the gap on the whole "Necron technology is better" argument. The same principle would apply to Feral orks gradually adapting imperial tech to overcome AM forces.
Orks are intra-galactic now, which means it's possible that they inhabit not only the milky way, but the trillions of galaxies surrounding the milky way.
Constant war and looting of xenos tech in these other galaxies makes it likely that orks now have tech that makes necron gubbins look like a pointy stick.
Combined with the mind bogglingly vast numbers of trillions upon trillions of orks, swarming towards the boggle eyed tin heads means that they are royally boned.
The situation is exactly like an elderly gay couple, both ex-special forces green beret badasses, enjoying the quite life in their retirement chalet, tending the garden etc.
Unfortunately a bunch of boisterous, rowdy yobbos moves in next door, and start having loud raucous parties and letting their bull terriers gak all over Ronnie and Reggie's beautifully tended front lawn.
R&R go over to their new neighbours to complain, things get out of hand and one of the yobs gets a kick in the bollocks.
The next day, the entire population of the world turns up at Ronnie & Reggie's retirement home, and beat the ever living gak out of our elderly couple, until there is literally nothing left.
Orks win.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
I've read the arguments, and I come to this conclusion: Both sides gather all of their forces, and the following war leads to a destroyed galaxy, or destroyed Orks
Reasoning: badassery on both sides aside, if worst comes to worst, the Necrons destroy the galaxy (literally) and move on to a different one. If the Orks from neighboring galaxies decided to hop on board the war in the Milky Way, they either (a) got annihilated with the galaxy or (b) reached the Milky Way and found it to be a lifeless Void with intermittent fields of rubble and shattered stars filling it up.
Basically, it would could go down in one of these scenarios, according the whims of the Fates:
1.) Orks start forming their ultimate WAAAAAGH!!!, and millions of them give their bodies to Gork and Mork (As everybody knows, every Warp Entity needs an ephemeral vessel in order for it to remain on this plane of existence)
2.) Necrons utiliize super weapons along the lines of the World Engine (don't even try to say that they only had one of those, it was the property of a single Dynasty, which only had rule of a single Tomb World, so it only makes sense that artefacts of similar power exist in other, larger Dynasties) along with however many millions of Ships they have to destroy said Vessel before the Orks finish it. They proceed to annihilate the Ork fleets, then begin scouring every Ork System with weapons a la Life Stealer (except a vastly more effective version, because Necrons).
OR
1.) Orks begin building said vessel
2.) Necrons blow up the neighboring star (see: Celestial Orrery)
3.) Necrons systematically eliminate all Ork Systems
OR
1.) Orks finish said vessel, annihilate the Necrons, and then the Necrons go back in time and warn past 'Crons about what happens, past 'Crons hit Orks as soon as the WAAAGH begins forming, annihilate it.
2.) A second ultimate WAAAAGHH!!! brings forth Gork and Mork, annihilates Necrons after centuries of bloody warfare.
3.) Repeat Step One
OR
1.) Necrons realize they have no hope of victory, so they turn Crownworld Thanatos into a second World Engine, leave the galaxy, and blow it to smitherines (see: Celestial Orrery).
OR
1.) G'Mork come into play, a combination of C'tan and the Celestial Orrery lead to their essences being scattered throughout the Warp (this is what happens when a major Warp being has its vessel destroyed, as is common knowledge)
2.) Necron void superiority allows them to systematically scour the rest of the Ork systems.
Note: the only time I can imagine the fourth scenario occurring is the other galaxies' Orks reach the Milky Way in time to assist in the war, though this is a virtual impossibility due to the insanely huge distance between galaxies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/15 23:18:58
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: I've read the arguments, and I come to this conclusion: Both sides gather all of their forces, and the following war leads to a destroyed galaxy, or destroyed Orks
Reasoning: badassery on both sides aside, if worst comes to worst, the Necrons destroy the galaxy (literally) and move on to a different one. If the Orks from neighboring galaxies decided to hop on board the war in the Milky Way, they either (a) got annihilated with the galaxy or (b) reached the Milky Way and found it to be a lifeless Void with intermittent fields of rubble and shattered stars filling it up.
Basically, it would could go down in one of these scenarios, according the whims of the Fates:
1.) Orks start forming their ultimate WAAAAAGH!!!, and millions of them give their bodies to Gork and Mork (As everybody knows, every Warp Entity needs an ephemeral vessel in order for it to remain on this plane of existence)
2.) Necrons utiliize super weapons along the lines of the World Engine (don't even try to say that they only had one of those, it was the property of a single Dynasty, which only had rule of a single Tomb World, so it only makes sense that artefacts of similar power exist in other, larger Dynasties) along with however many millions of Ships they have to destroy said Vessel before the Orks finish it. They proceed to annihilate the Ork fleets, then begin scouring every Ork System with weapons a la Life Stealer (except a vastly more effective version, because Necrons).
OR
1.) Orks begin building said vessel
2.) Necrons blow up the neighboring star (see: Celestial Orrery)
3.) Necrons systematically eliminate all Ork Systems
OR
1.) Orks finish said vessel, annihilate the Necrons, and then the Necrons go back in time and warn past 'Crons about what happens, past 'Crons hit Orks as soon as the WAAAGH begins forming, annihilate it.
2.) A second ultimate WAAAAGHH!!! brings forth Gork and Mork, annihilates Necrons after centuries of bloody warfare.
3.) Repeat Step One
OR
1.) Necrons realize they have no hope of victory, so they turn Crownworld Thanatos into a second World Engine, leave the galaxy, and blow it to smitherines (see: Celestial Orrery).
OR
1.) G'Mork come into play, a combination of C'tan and the Celestial Orrery lead to their essences being scattered throughout the Warp (this is what happens when a major Warp being has its vessel destroyed, as is common knowledge)
2.) Necron void superiority allows them to systematically scour the rest of the Ork systems.
Note: the only time I can imagine the fourth scenario occurring is the other galaxies' Orks reach the Milky Way in time to assist in the war, though this is a virtual impossibility due to the insanely huge distance between galaxies.
Just going to pick at that last one.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
C'Tan are not strong enough to stand up to 2 chaos gods. 'Specially since warp is the C'Tan's weakness.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
dusara217 wrote: I've read the arguments, and I come to this conclusion: Both sides gather all of their forces, and the following war leads to a destroyed galaxy, or destroyed Orks
Reasoning: badassery on both sides aside, if worst comes to worst, the Necrons destroy the galaxy (literally) and move on to a different one. If the Orks from neighboring galaxies decided to hop on board the war in the Milky Way, they either (a) got annihilated with the galaxy or (b) reached the Milky Way and found it to be a lifeless Void with intermittent fields of rubble and shattered stars filling it up.
Basically, it would could go down in one of these scenarios, according the whims of the Fates:
1.) Orks start forming their ultimate WAAAAAGH!!!, and millions of them give their bodies to Gork and Mork (As everybody knows, every Warp Entity needs an ephemeral vessel in order for it to remain on this plane of existence)
2.) Necrons utiliize super weapons along the lines of the World Engine (don't even try to say that they only had one of those, it was the property of a single Dynasty, which only had rule of a single Tomb World, so it only makes sense that artefacts of similar power exist in other, larger Dynasties) along with however many millions of Ships they have to destroy said Vessel before the Orks finish it. They proceed to annihilate the Ork fleets, then begin scouring every Ork System with weapons a la Life Stealer (except a vastly more effective version, because Necrons).
OR
1.) Orks begin building said vessel
2.) Necrons blow up the neighboring star (see: Celestial Orrery)
3.) Necrons systematically eliminate all Ork Systems
OR
1.) Orks finish said vessel, annihilate the Necrons, and then the Necrons go back in time and warn past 'Crons about what happens, past 'Crons hit Orks as soon as the WAAAGH begins forming, annihilate it.
2.) A second ultimate WAAAAGHH!!! brings forth Gork and Mork, annihilates Necrons after centuries of bloody warfare.
3.) Repeat Step One
OR
1.) Necrons realize they have no hope of victory, so they turn Crownworld Thanatos into a second World Engine, leave the galaxy, and blow it to smitherines (see: Celestial Orrery).
OR
1.) G'Mork come into play, a combination of C'tan and the Celestial Orrery lead to their essences being scattered throughout the Warp (this is what happens when a major Warp being has its vessel destroyed, as is common knowledge)
2.) Necron void superiority allows them to systematically scour the rest of the Ork systems.
Note: the only time I can imagine the fourth scenario occurring is the other galaxies' Orks reach the Milky Way in time to assist in the war, though this is a virtual impossibility due to the insanely huge distance between galaxies.
Just going to pick at that last one.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
C'Tan are not strong enough to stand up to 2 chaos gods. 'Specially since warp is the C'Tan's weakness.
At which point, the Necrons leave the Galaxy in the face of an insurmountable threat, ending the war in a stalemate
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Scrabb wrote: But the Orks haven't weaponized time travel the way the Necrons have.
I do have hopes that the Orks will get exposed to said technology and we'll get an epic time travel battle royale.
Omfg yes!
Orks! In! Tiiiiimmmeee! Man would the 'crons learn a thing or two about war in the 41st. The IoMs been trying to scrape the orks off the galaxies collective @zz for ten thousand years. Good luck with yer Dr.Who bs.
(1) I don't think time travel will be used as much as people seem to think it world be. The result would either be so chaotic that the galaxy would get destroyed and nobody wins, or both sides realise that using time travel (especially in any great amounts) will lead to the aforementioned chaos and simply not use it.
(2) Though the Orks were created to defeat the Necrons doesn't simply mean that they will. An over-simplistic explanation as to why is: A saw is designed to cut materials, but the saw can go blunt and no longer be able to cut said materials. In other words, the Orks can still fail.
(3) Orks adapting Necron weaponry seems (to me) to not be as advantageous as people seem to think. It's like saying just because a civilian can pick up the gun of a dead soldier, suddenly he's as good as the soldier. I know this is an oversimplification, but my point still stands.
Ultimately, the Necrons would struggle quite a bit, but they tend to be a lot more organised than Orks. And regardless of how relatively advanced they are, the sheer amount of vast, destructive technologies they possess will still give them an edge.
What I'm saying is: I reckon it'll be close, but the Necrons will come out on top.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
That's a bit of a misnomer since they're warp entities, and thus exist outside time itself. Can't really time travel when you exist in all times simultaneously.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
That's a bit of a misnomer since they're warp entities, and thus exist outside time itself. Can't really time travel when you exist in all times simultaneously.
Also, when they enter this reality, they exit the Warp, do they not?
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
If Gork and Mork are in play they can intervene and stop the Necrons from detonating those stars, and they have been shown to use time travel themselves.
That's a bit of a misnomer since they're warp entities, and thus exist outside time itself. Can't really time travel when you exist in all times simultaneously.
Because they exist at all points they never have to "travel" through time, but they can certainly change/ affect time periods in the past,present, and future.
They CAN cause their minions (ala Ghazghkul) to travel through time though.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
I maintain my stance from the last thread that the Orks lose, but I know they will win the poll because there are more Ork players.
Well I don't play orks, but I am of the stance that in general warp beings trump superscience so I give the win to the orks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/16 15:50:44
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
There's a reason why there are less Necron players, the army is too depressing.
Even relentless OP buffs that make playing them a doddle for even the most tactically challenged halfwit, still produces less sales, as a whole faction, than the lead chaos toilet miniature from 1983.
Can't blame them for trying though. They could potentially shift a warehouse full of leadbelcher spray paint.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
I fully believe Orks cannot be truly defeated. But they could be beat down and thrown to the back-burner. They've (the Necrons) pretty much just learned the galaxy. There's nothing they can't do if they just believe in themsel... nevermind that's Orks.
Orks coming together may be a doomsday-like event, but I get the vibe that Necrons would just be doomsday incarnate. You literally can't even the kind of death the Necrons could lay upon the galaxy... no one can literally even it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/21 10:02:11
I absolutely agree. They are pretty much the masters of the material realm, with Orks being the perfect link between warp and world. However, have we even known orks to actually summon Gork/Mork into reality in any cohesive manner? The only time the ork gods act is when they want to, and even then, their impact is pretty small. They only time travelled one ork's warband. That's it. Whereas the Necrons actually killed gods.
Plus, we then reach the point of void combat. The orks can't even get close enough to do anything of note. No spores, no Waaagh! energy, nothing. I still can't see why Orks are winning this poll.
(Also, out of curiousity, I can't find anything in recent codexes about the orks being made to kill the Necrons. Could I get a source on that?)
The c'tan weren't Gods, but energy based creatures of the natural realm.
Do the necrons have the ability to kill Gork and Mork, or any of the Chaos gods?
If not, orks win.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
So let's say the Necrons beat the orks. Wouldn't they just go back to sleep for another 60 Million years while the orks slowly begin to repopulate? at that point the Necrons will be in the predicament they are in now, not having full numbers as the orks would awake a few tomb worlds at time, giving them a massive advantage in not having to deal with the Necrons in full force. it's a stretch, but I guess the point is that Orks seem pretty much impossible to eradicate. Consider cockroaches in the real world. We have gotten pretty creative in our approach to dealing with them, but ultimately, they are here to stay.
Novasetri wrote: So let's say the Necrons beat the orks. Wouldn't they just go back to sleep for another 60 Million years while the orks slowly begin to repopulate? at that point the Necrons will be in the predicament they are in now, not having full numbers as the orks would awake a few tomb worlds at time, giving them a massive advantage in not having to deal with the Necrons in full force. it's a stretch, but I guess the point is that Orks seem pretty much impossible to eradicate. Consider cockroaches in the real world. We have gotten pretty creative in our approach to dealing with them, but ultimately, they are here to stay.
The Necrons were only pressured into sleep because of the Eldar. The end goal of the Necrons is the extermination of all life. There wouldn't be Orks left to regenerate as Necrons would meticulously expunge every world of organic life. After the Orks they'd move on to the Imperium, then the minor xenos, and finally the Eldar. Once all life as been expunged, they'd enact their final plan by returning to organic bodies. The Necontyr would be rebuilt in a galactic empire with them as the sole survivors, and devoid of any mutations like before.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Sgt_Smudge wrote: (Also, out of curiousity, I can't find anything in recent codexes about the orks being made to kill the Necrons. Could I get a source on that?)
The Old Ones (the guys who genetically engineered half the Sentients in the galaxy) designed the Eldar and the Krork (ancestors of modern Orks) to use the Warp to counter the Necrons. It didn't work. The Necrons and the C'tan roflstomped the species the Old Ones designed to kill them (not that the Old Ones' creations didn't put up a fight, but it's kind of hard to kill things that have power on par with minor Chaos Gods). If you want a source for this, just look up the War in Heaven on the wiki or on lexicanum or 1d4Chan.
This is part of the reason that I say that C'tan Shards (when all are used in conjunction) would be on par with G/Mork. The Old Ones dominated the galaxy through sheer psychic power, and there were millions of them. It's even hypothesized that the Eldar Pantheon was composed primarily of former Old Ones that the Eldar worshiped as Gods (which fed them even more power).They were literally the most Psychically powerful race in all of 40k (numbering in the millions, at least, likely in the billions), and they STILL got curbstomped by the C'tan/Necrons. AND they were supported by the original Orks, Eldar, and dozens of other redonculously powerful psychic races.
Note: Modern fluff doesn't reflect this in the slightest, most of this information comes from old stuff.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/22 17:24:17
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
It is old fluff by the looks of it. The Necron Lexicanum, mentions no curb stomping. It does mentioned that the necrons were so weakened by their battle against the new races and the old ones, that they buggered off to their tomb worlds. Since then, the Eldar have been steadily destroying each tomb world one after the other.
Also, the fluff states that the tomb world's have been reawakening bit by bit, and are being destroyed by the more vigorous races. Each time they die the necrons become a little more unhinged.
Basically, if the necrons did ever manage to wake up altogether, weren't drooling, lobotimised fuckwits, and some how managed to unite, they would find themselves hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed by every young race going, even without a united ork waaagh.
If there was also an ork waaagh they would be so much dented tin and looted wagon fodder.
We could also imagine a state where the vengeful c'tan after millenia of imprisonment and torture at the hands of the boggle eyed tin heads finally break free of their bondage and wreak a horrific, and we'll deserved vengeance on their erstwhile captors.
Either way, orks win.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
r_squared wrote: Basically, if the necrons did ever manage to wake up altogether, weren't drooling, lobotimised fuckwits, and some how managed to unite, they would find themselves hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed by every young race going, even without a united ork waaagh.
Yep, it's made up supposition, just like every other stance and opinion on here.
Pointless discussing it again really.
But still, it's nice to see that orks win, twice. ;-)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/23 16:04:29
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
so no.
4,000 
Word Bearers 1,500 
