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Scrabb wrote: So how many of these shards have been destroyed?
None? A few? Several?
I second this. I"ve never heard of this bit of fluff, is there a source for it, or is it head canon (I really just want to read about it)? afaik, the Necrons would have destroyed the C'tan, had they been able to, and shattering them was the best the Silent King could do.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Scrabb wrote: So how many of these shards have been destroyed?
None? A few? Several?
As far as I know, none. We only know that one C'tan, the flayer, was completely destroyed during the betrayal rather than separated into shards.
Also, here's a little fluff from the 7th Ed necron codex (will post page number if requested) regarding the power of a C'tan shard. Sometime in the 700s m41, a shard of the void dragon escaped from its prison in the Arotepk dynasty. The shard then proceeded to destroy 12 planets before finally being recaptured by a group of crypteks. 1 C'tan shard, of which there are many thousands in the galaxy, destroyed 12 planets and nearly brought the Arotepk dynasty to its knees (and the Arotepk aren't pushovers, they themselves smashed through a large force of craft world eldar and harlequins just for a little gemstone, but I digress). Don't underestimate the C'tan. Even though they have no warp connection and are only fractions of their former selves, they can still lay waste to vast amounts of space.
Now as many ork supporters will no doubt argue, this could go both ways, don't the C'tan and necrons hate each other? Now that would be a good point, but remember that this thread assumes both factions are totally united.
My point was, I'm not really sure why people are assuming that Gork and Mork are the only Ork gods.
Orks are psychic, and have a connection to the warp. I mean, do you really think, that in an event as cataclysmic as all Orks vs. all Necrons, the Chaos Gods would just sit idle? This is the exact kind of event that would lead to them uniting(the last time they were stated to do so was during the Horus Heresy). Whenever the Chaos Gods are threatened, they respond. And Necrons most certainly are a threat to Chaos, since a Necron victory would end all life and seal the Warp off, returning it too its natural state from before the War in Heaven, which Chaos does not want.
Of course Chaos would have no choice but to back up the Orks. And this Chaos is not the same Chaos from the War in Heaven. 40k Chaos has grown sentient. It is so chaotic, it bursts into reality constantly.
Orks can worship Chaos. And they can survive in the Warp just fine (see:Tuska the Daemon Killa). The Ctan cannot. When Reality meets Warp, the Warp wins.
Delicate Swarm wrote: I mean, do you really think, that in an event as cataclysmic as all Orks vs. all Necrons, the Chaos Gods would just sit idle?
Yes, because this scenario is orks United vs necrons united. Not orks + chaos vs necrons.
Even in a realistic end of times scenario, where the whole galaxy is involved, I don't think chaos would side with the orks. Khorne especially would probably be happy about all the fighting going on, but chaos would want to destroy reality altogether.
But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Actually, this is taking place inside a vacuum. The question is specifically Orks vs. necrons. The Ork Gods, G'Mork, are the Gods of Orkiness, and are made up entirely of Ork souls, which is why they are counted in this discussion. Khorne, slaanesh, etc. are amalgams of the souls of Eldar, Humans, Nicassar, etc. They are transpecies Gods, and don't really have anything to do with Orks, aside form dicking around with them and running experiments on them.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: And while that would suck for the Necrons, it would still be preferable to destruction.
Not really, considering they'd be mindless slaves again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/25 00:17:46
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: And while that would suck for the Necrons, it would still be preferable to destruction.
Not really, considering they'd be mindless slaves again.
Depends on how you view death
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: And while that would suck for the Necrons, it would still be preferable to destruction.
Not really, considering they'd be mindless slaves again.
Depends on how you view death
Not really because a non-sentient organism doesn't care either way, as it is physically incapable of appreciating anything.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Actually, this is taking place inside a vacuum. The question is specifically Orks vs. necrons. The Ork Gods, G'Mork, are the Gods of Orkiness, and are made up entirely of Ork souls, which is why they are counted in this discussion. Khorne, slaanesh, etc. are amalgams of the souls of Eldar, Humans, Nicassar, etc. They are transpecies Gods, and don't really have anything to do with Orks, aside form dicking around with them and running experiments on them.
Actually the Chaos gods do feed off of Orks, especially Khorne. As you say, they are transpecies, they can feed off of, and back, champions of any race. Khorne is even said to possess Orkish features, because of all the Orks that die in his name.
Delicate Swarm wrote: But Chaos doesn't want to destroy reality. It is parasitic, feeding off of the emotions of living beings. In the scenario imagined, Chaos would have to side with the Orks to survive.
And it certainly wouldn't just stand around, or go away. This fight is obviously not taking place in a vacuum. Chaos is eternal, a natural result of the survival instinct of the Old Ones creations. I see no reason why they should be left out. Orks have been known to receive gifts of Chaos before, and they have psykers. Orks have warp powers, and Necrons don't. These are traits intrinsic to each race, no reason to leave them out.
Chaos is completely about destroying reality. Humans can survive in the warp, they don't need the materium to be sustained, not to mention Chaos is self sufficient at this point. The endgame for the Chaos Gods is to swallow up the materium into the Warp and turn everything into a daemon world.
To be honest, that's kind of what I meant.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
And uniting all orks isn't restructuring? All orks fighting on the same side is far more ridiculous, and yet the scenario is both factions united, restructuring is a necessary byproduct of that process. And I don't think C'tan are equatable to DE slaves. C'tan are in game units from the necrons faction. DE slaves are from a variety of different factions, depending on where they came from.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
And uniting all orks isn't restructuring? All orks fighting on the same side is far more ridiculous, and yet the scenario is both factions united, restructuring is a necessary byproduct of that process. And I don't think C'tan are equatable to DE slaves. C'tan are in game units from the necrons faction. DE slaves are from a variety of different factions, depending on where they came from.
You're right about the slaves/=/C'tan in gameplay terms. Hell, some of the DE slaves might even be having a good time.
However, the C'tan have been unwillingly drafted into service by the betrayal of their slave race, the Necrons. It is established Ork fluff that Waaghs unite them. That is hardly more ridiculous than the C'tan forgiving the Necrons.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
Necrons dont' free C'tan Shards. Necrons enslave them and force them to fight for their Necron Overlords.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, this is a vacuum what if that does not allow for chaos interfering,
And saying that a freed C'tan would fight for the Necrons just doesn't fly. It's like claiming the DE slaves are going to give their all in a fight to help their lords and masters. It goes beyond uniting the faction to restructuring the faction.
Necrons dont' free C'tan Shards. Necrons enslave them and force them to fight for their Necron Overlords.
I was responding to the poster that was hopeful a reconstituted C'tan (shards destroyed and restructured) would fight for the Necrons. I am in complete agreement with you.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that in this scenario, all other factions are taken out of the picture, either due to defeat or some other reasoning. Theorizing from this assumption, this means GMork have gained considerable market share within the warp, as there are no more gods to contend with. This could lead to a few major advantages for the orks.
1. Mastery over the warp. Orks would be better able to navigate the warp, and possibly even become inhabitants. Orks would now have a completely seperate reality to muster forces in, and be able to better navigate the warp for spontanious attacks against the necrons. They would essentially transition similar to how chaos space marines did.
2. We could assume that GMork are going to get pretty bored without having Khorn to punch in the face. This could lead to the push for being summoned into reality.
3. GMork are so powerfull because they do not create their own daemons. They hold all of the power to themselves because bigger is better! But what about when that boredom sets in? Could we see the rise of "chaos orks" to aid in the plan to bring gmork into reality? In my mind these orks would not be "chaos" as we are use to, since their appeariance would be greatly determimed by the gods overall aestetic.
As always, its pure conjecture, but I think these are valid speculations if we look into the history of the warp and factions like chaos space marines or dark eldar.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that in this scenario, all other factions are taken out of the picture, either due to defeat or some other reasoning. Theorizing from this assumption, this means GMork have gained considerable market share within the warp, as there are no more gods to contend with. This could lead to a few major advantages for the orks.
1. Mastery over the warp. Orks would be better able to navigate the warp, and possibly even become inhabitants. Orks would now have a completely seperate reality to muster forces in, and be able to better navigate the warp for spontanious attacks against the necrons. They would essentially transition similar to how chaos space marines did.
2. We could assume that GMork are going to get pretty bored without having Khorn to punch in the face. This could lead to the push for being summoned into reality.
3. GMork are so powerfull because they do not create their own daemons. They hold all of the power to themselves because bigger is better! But what about when that boredom sets in? Could we see the rise of "chaos orks" to aid in the plan to bring gmork into reality? In my mind these orks would not be "chaos" as we are use to, since their appeariance would be greatly determimed by the gods overall aestetic.
As always, its pure conjecture, but I think these are valid speculations if we look into the history of the warp and factions like chaos space marines or dark eldar.
And I'd say that brings this match into worst case scenario. Necrons inevitably lose, so they blow up the galaxy for the ultimate (sentence finished in spoiler)
Spoiler:
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
I still don't see why Orks shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of everything they have available to them. If they can use the Warp as a weapon (and they can), then that should be allowed. Otherwise, you may as well say they can't use warp travel, or psykers. Or Gork and Mork.
Orks can use the warp as a weapon, they can also use warp travel, psykers, and Gork/Mork. But when Khorne and the other chaos gods get involved, you're bringing in another faction to fight on their side, even though they both have very different goals and would never ally with each other on a large scale.
Let me put it this way: say the scenario was necrons vs imperium (both fully United) instead of orks. Surely you wouldn't say that because some humans worship chaos, the full might of the warp is suddenly on humanity's side. But that doesn't mean that humans can't use psykers, or warp travel, or the emperor's warp powers.
Khorne wouldn't ally with humans just because a few of them worship him, and he wouldn't ally with the orks just because a tiny number of orks worship him. Gork and mork on the other hand, are totally on the orks' side since they are warp manifestations of the ork race's desires and emotions, and share the same goals.
In short: I agree orks should be able to make use of everything available to them. The problem is that chaos is not available to the orks, it is a seperate faction.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that in this scenario, all other factions are taken out of the picture, either due to defeat or some other reasoning. Theorizing from this assumption, this means GMork have gained considerable market share within the warp, as there are no more gods to contend with. This could lead to a few major advantages for the orks.
1. Mastery over the warp. Orks would be better able to navigate the warp, and possibly even become inhabitants. Orks would now have a completely seperate reality to muster forces in, and be able to better navigate the warp for spontanious attacks against the necrons. They would essentially transition similar to how chaos space marines did.
2. We could assume that GMork are going to get pretty bored without having Khorn to punch in the face. This could lead to the push for being summoned into reality.
3. GMork are so powerfull because they do not create their own daemons. They hold all of the power to themselves because bigger is better! But what about when that boredom sets in? Could we see the rise of "chaos orks" to aid in the plan to bring gmork into reality? In my mind these orks would not be "chaos" as we are use to, since their appeariance would be greatly determimed by the gods overall aestetic.
As always, its pure conjecture, but I think these are valid speculations if we look into the history of the warp and factions like chaos space marines or dark eldar.
Wow. That was good.
Orks are already established in the warp.
The warp has a complicated relationship with time.
And I'd say that brings this match into worst case scenario. Necrons inevitably lose, so they blow up the galaxy
Do they though? Its not like they just get to flip a switch and kill everything. Systematically destroying every star is goig to take time & resources not to mention create a huge target for the orks to go after. As orks do, many will run to the closest battle just for a good fight, but there will be leaders out there like ghazy shifting the gaze to the real threats.
I could be wrong on this, Necrons could have a bunch of these star killers with unlimited free ammo and no restrictions on their rate of fire, but that seems unlikely.
Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Delicate Swarm wrote: Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Which means stalemate. This might be the one matchup that actually ends in a stalemate.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Delicate Swarm wrote: Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Which means stalemate. This might be the one matchup that actually ends in a stalemate.
Delicate Swarm wrote: Actually Necrons literally can flip a switch and blow up the Galaxy, with the Celestial Orrery.
Problem is, Orks can survive in the cold of space, on asteroids or ships. So even blowing up every star in the galaxy wouldn't get rid of them, assuming that didn't cause reality to collapse or something.
Which means stalemate. This might be the one matchup that actually ends in a stalemate.
Nids V orks
I stand corrected.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
