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 Ravenous D wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I approve of the less then over-powered nature of the leaks we have seen, as Game Workshop needs to work on their 'power creep' problem anyway.

Yeah, GW tried that and released a years worth of stinker dexes before cranking it back to 11 with crons. Guess sales weren't doing so hot. But whatever, its only 20% of their customers that play the game, what do we know.

More than GW does. They don't do market research!

Problem is that they can crank out Codexes as fast or as slow as possible, once a book is out then you're stuck with it for however many months GW decides to come back around to you. If you've got a good book, great! If not, you're out of luck. That's why the one thing I do like about Age of Sigmar is that all the rules came out at the same time (and are free), so if something is overpowered, then it can be edited easily for balance purposes.

Of course, then there is the whole 'still waiting on that Necron FAQ' thing floating about.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Problem is that they can crank out Codexes as fast or as slow as possible, once a book is out then you're stuck with it for however many months GW decides to come back around to you. If you've got a good book, great! If not, you're out of luck. That's why the one thing I do like about Age of Sigmar is that all the rules came out at the same time (and are free), so if something is overpowered, then it can be edited easily for balance purposes.

Of course, then there is the whole 'still waiting on that Necron FAQ' thing floating about.

Buddy, we've been waiting on FAQs for everybody for quite some time now. Problem is FAQs don't make GW money, so GW does not publish FAQs anymore. I'd be willing to be that there will be at least one issue in the new Tau codex that will require some kind of clarification.

alex0911 wrote:
Tau s are already OP and they will be even better for sure... Please stop crying about your new codex and try to imagine how those poors orks, chaos space marines, dark eldars, tyranids and imperial guards feel since a long time .... Maybe its your turn to play with an ugly codex after all? Join us !

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

I'm desperately waiting for the day when Chaos Marines finally get themselves something better than an Autocannon & Plasma gun as our most optimised upgrades! I would kill for GW to finally release the other plastic Greater Daemons - especially the LoC!
That doesn't mean however that I think Tau players or anyone else should get a gakky release just because my favourites are still likely years away.

If anything, I'm personally excited to see what Tau players are getting, as their model releases (re-vamped Fire Warriors & Crisis Suits), could possibly mean that when Chaos Marines eventually (if ever mind you), get a much needed update, that we could see the likes of our basic grunts + other long suffering kits get a badly needed face lift!
And if the Tau codex turns out to be more of a synergy based book, rather than a "spam units X/Y/Z = win" book, then that's even better... Not only will it mean that Tau will be more fun to play against than obnoxious bullgak like Thunderdome/Scatbike spam/etc..., but it might be a sign that Chaos Marines will end up in a similar boat too!

Experiment 626 wrote:

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

The problem is that the same few armies always get left at the bottom, nids (only average in 4th), orks (never good), IG (average, till 6th, then bad), CSM (Only good in 3rd), DA (never good) in every codex cycle.

The same few armies are also always on the top of the cheese pile every edition. Eldar has been massively overpowered for 25 years, and even the nerfing edition of 5th completely missed them (their codex did not get updated). Tau has been strong since 4th with Fish of Fury, average in 5th, then powerful from then on, especially with the riptide. Necrons has always been strong, just not eldar strong.

The rest are stuck in the middle, with some marine variant being above average each edition, but never coming close to eldar, crons or tau.

Now, this sees one of the top armies moving to average, but the whole purpose of the exercise is to buff eldar and keep the powergaming cheesemongers happy. Its no surprise that now, at the end of the good cycle, the only codexes left to update are the aforementioned bad ones. Expect rules like synapse to work by removing every model not covered by it, CSM somehow even becoming more bland, 13pt ork boys, etc.

Experiment 626 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:
Tau s are already OP and they will be even better for sure... Please stop crying about your new codex and try to imagine how those poors orks, chaos space marines, dark eldars, tyranids and imperial guards feel since a long time .... Maybe its your turn to play with an ugly codex after all? Join us !

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

I'm desperately waiting for the day when Chaos Marines finally get themselves something better than an Autocannon & Plasma gun as our most optimised upgrades! I would kill for GW to finally release the other plastic Greater Daemons - especially the LoC!
That doesn't mean however that I think Tau players or anyone else should get a gakky release just because my favourites are still likely years away.

If anything, I'm personally excited to see what Tau players are getting, as their model releases (re-vamped Fire Warriors & Crisis Suits), could possibly mean that when Chaos Marines eventually (if ever mind you), get a much needed update, that we could see the likes of our basic grunts + other long suffering kits get a badly needed face lift!
And if the Tau codex turns out to be more of a synergy based book, rather than a "spam units X/Y/Z = win" book, then that's even better... Not only will it mean that Tau will be more fun to play against than obnoxious bullgak like Thunderdome/Scatbike spam/etc..., but it might be a sign that Chaos Marines will end up in a similar boat too!

That's not what he's saying at all. There is a power level that the majority of the game sits at, and Tau is well above that. Acting like Tau will suck if they are nerfed is what the guy you quoted is mocking, especially since they will still likely be above the majority of the game.

It's not about wanting other people to have a gak codex. It's about wanting other people not to have a stupidly OP codex that ruins the balance of the game. Nids and Guard are very strong, and I really don't think DE and CSM are bad at all either.

Look guys... Dboy has the best awards of all time! Let us not forget his sacrifice of eldar trickery, his dice rolls of eldar cheese, and his gloating of eldar pride. All forget about.. Who? Oh, dboy, that's right

 SHUPPET wrote:

That's not what he's saying at all. There is a power level that the majority of the game sits at, and Tau is well above that. Acting like Tau will suck if they are nerfed is what the guy you quoted is mocking, especially since they will still likely be above the majority of the game.

It's not about wanting other people to have a gak codex. It's about wanting other people not to have a stupidly OP codex that ruins the balance of the game. Nids and Guard are very strong, and I really don't think DE and CSM are bad at all either.

I can get from a general perspective that overall power can be relative/subjective, but a lot of what you have said here is objectively false.

Tyranid Monstrous Creatures are in many cases overcosted and not durable enough compared to their counterparts. The army relies on unit synergy and massed numbers, but has only limited options with which to use these concepts. There is a reason why competitive Tyranid armies revolve around taking as many flying hive Tyrants as possible; by virtue of being undercosted the unit is actually effective for its points, which cannot be aid for a majority of tyranid units that aren't gaunts.

Chaos Space Marines lack virtually any form of inter-army or even unit synergy. Their units are in many cases overcosted compared to equivalent units form other armies, and lack any sort of flexibility in army composition. The only reason CSM are taken competitively is for the use of one of their few good units, the Heldrake, and as a means of taking Bel'akor as allies for your Chaos Daemons army.

While Dark Eldar are in a decent position regarding power alone, they pale in comparison to the utter overpoweredness of Craftworld Eldar. Their units also don't put out enough firepower to justify their low durability, and they are meant to be an assault army in an edition that heavily favors shooting.

Imperial Guard are in a sorry state indeed. The game now heavily favors mobility, which the Imperial guard must now buy in the from of overcosted and ineffective transports. On average, their Orders are less reliable than psychic powers, espcially if all psychic dice are spent in one power. IG tanks are overcosted both for their firepower and their durability.

Disparage them all you will, but tournament rankings are an effective means of sorting out the power level of various armies. Taking into account flukes such as the occasional Ork win, Tyranids having one solid easily spammed unit, and Eldar being nerfed via house rules, as well as ignoring the use of allies, Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Guard are consistently ranked last.

Tau are a powerful codex, but compared to the top-tier books they are a mid-level army. The only way they appear overpowered is if they bring the cheeseiest combinations against armies and factions that have no effective answers, such as CSM, IG, and non-Flyrant-spam Tyranids.

kburn wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

The problem is that the same few armies always get left at the bottom, nids (only average in 4th), orks (never good), IG (average, till 6th, then bad), CSM (Only good in 3rd), DA (never good) in every codex cycle.

The same few armies are also always on the top of the cheese pile every edition. Eldar has been massively overpowered for 25 years, and even the nerfing edition of 5th completely missed them (their codex did not get updated). Tau has been strong since 4th with Fish of Fury, average in 5th, then powerful from then on, especially with the riptide. Necrons has always been strong, just not eldar strong.

The rest are stuck in the middle, with some marine variant being above average each edition, but never coming close to eldar, crons or tau.

Now, this sees one of the top armies moving to average, but the whole purpose of the exercise is to buff eldar and keep the powergaming cheesemongers happy. Its no surprise that now, at the end of the good cycle, the only codexes left to update are the aforementioned bad ones. Expect rules like synapse to work by removing every model not covered by it, CSM somehow even becoming more bland, 13pt ork boys, etc.

Think you might want to check up your history there friend, IG were considered top tier for atleast a while during 5th, eldar were rather low tier during 5th, and tau were perhaps the worst army in the game (on par with chaos and nids) once fish of fury disappeared until 6th ed came out. To be honest the only "always top" faction has been necrons, with space marines always being atleast solid to good.

Yes though, dark angels and chaos always get shafted and trolled

Bobug wrote:

kburn wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

The problem is that the same few armies always get left at the bottom, nids (only average in 4th), orks (never good), IG (average, till 6th, then bad), CSM (Only good in 3rd), DA (never good) in every codex cycle.

The same few armies are also always on the top of the cheese pile every edition. Eldar has been massively overpowered for 25 years, and even the nerfing edition of 5th completely missed them (their codex did not get updated). Tau has been strong since 4th with Fish of Fury, average in 5th, then powerful from then on, especially with the riptide. Necrons has always been strong, just not eldar strong.

The rest are stuck in the middle, with some marine variant being above average each edition, but never coming close to eldar, crons or tau.

Now, this sees one of the top armies moving to average, but the whole purpose of the exercise is to buff eldar and keep the powergaming cheesemongers happy. Its no surprise that now, at the end of the good cycle, the only codexes left to update are the aforementioned bad ones. Expect rules like synapse to work by removing every model not covered by it, CSM somehow even becoming more bland, 13pt ork boys, etc.

Think you might want to check up your history there friend, IG were considered top tier for atleast a while during 5th, eldar were rather low tier during 5th, and tau were perhaps the worst army in the game (on par with chaos and nids) once fish of fury disappeared until 6th ed came out. To be honest the only "always top" faction has been necrons, with space marines always being atleast solid to good.

Yes though, dark angels and chaos always get shafted and trolled

This is also sadly incorrect. Necrons were trash in 5th Edition until the actual 5th/6th Edition codex written by Matt Ward came out. The only army that is consistently decent to good is Space Marines to my knowledge with maybe the exception of 4th Edition.

Chaos Space Marines were uber-strong in 3.5, while Dark Angels have a powerful new codex, so neither of those qualify either.

Bobug wrote:

kburn wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

The problem is that the same few armies always get left at the bottom, nids (only average in 4th), orks (never good), IG (average, till 6th, then bad), CSM (Only good in 3rd), DA (never good) in every codex cycle.

The same few armies are also always on the top of the cheese pile every edition. Eldar has been massively overpowered for 25 years, and even the nerfing edition of 5th completely missed them (their codex did not get updated). Tau has been strong since 4th with Fish of Fury, average in 5th, then powerful from then on, especially with the riptide. Necrons has always been strong, just not eldar strong.

The rest are stuck in the middle, with some marine variant being above average each edition, but never coming close to eldar, crons or tau.

Now, this sees one of the top armies moving to average, but the whole purpose of the exercise is to buff eldar and keep the powergaming cheesemongers happy. Its no surprise that now, at the end of the good cycle, the only codexes left to update are the aforementioned bad ones. Expect rules like synapse to work by removing every model not covered by it, CSM somehow even becoming more bland, 13pt ork boys, etc.

Think you might want to check up your history there friend, IG were considered top tier for atleast a while during 5th, eldar were rather low tier during 5th, and tau were perhaps the worst army in the game (on par with chaos and nids) once fish of fury disappeared until 6th ed came out. To be honest the only "always top" faction has been necrons, with space marines always being atleast solid to good.

Yes though, dark angels and chaos always get shafted and trolled

Eldar hiave historically been at the top of the power pyramid in every edition they've gotten a codex produced in, which is every edition except 5th. IG were only ever considered a top tier army for one edition and were laughably bad in 3E and 4E, and have always had one of the worst internal balance schemes of any army in the game.

FMC Commander just got leaked! Thoughts? No Smash or Vector Strike but could be very interesting depending on our new support/signature systems.. Comes with a High Output Burst cannon and Missile Pod

You seem to forget all their power came from formations, not new units. Necrons and space marines and even dark Angels got nothing. Stop whining about not getting the riptide 2.0

 SHUPPET wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:
Tau s are already OP and they will be even better for sure... Please stop crying about your new codex and try to imagine how those poors orks, chaos space marines, dark eldars, tyranids and imperial guards feel since a long time .... Maybe its your turn to play with an ugly codex after all? Join us !

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

I'm desperately waiting for the day when Chaos Marines finally get themselves something better than an Autocannon & Plasma gun as our most optimised upgrades! I would kill for GW to finally release the other plastic Greater Daemons - especially the LoC!
That doesn't mean however that I think Tau players or anyone else should get a gakky release just because my favourites are still likely years away.

If anything, I'm personally excited to see what Tau players are getting, as their model releases (re-vamped Fire Warriors & Crisis Suits), could possibly mean that when Chaos Marines eventually (if ever mind you), get a much needed update, that we could see the likes of our basic grunts + other long suffering kits get a badly needed face lift!
And if the Tau codex turns out to be more of a synergy based book, rather than a "spam units X/Y/Z = win" book, then that's even better... Not only will it mean that Tau will be more fun to play against than obnoxious bullgak like Thunderdome/Scatbike spam/etc..., but it might be a sign that Chaos Marines will end up in a similar boat too!

That's not what he's saying at all. There is a power level that the majority of the game sits at, and Tau is well above that. Acting like Tau will suck if they are nerfed is what the guy you quoted is mocking, especially since they will still likely be above the majority of the game.

It's not about wanting other people to have a gak codex. It's about wanting other people not to have a stupidly OP codex that ruins the balance of the game. Nids and Guard are very strong, and I really don't think DE and CSM are bad at all either.

Well if the avarge good codex is eldar or necron. Then necron are the suck. Being better then the worse books doesn't suddenly make a codex good. Tau are better then IG, and probably still will be. But if they aren't at least just as good as necron or eldar, they kind of are the suck, there is acting needed.

 Dioxalyn wrote:
FMC Commander just got leaked! Thoughts? No Smash or Vector Strike but could be very interesting depending on our new support/signature systems.. Comes with a High Output Burst cannon and Missile Pod

That armour better give +1 Toughness/EW or else one melta or groundin check and you can say goodbye to it

Our formations are going to have to be amazing for us to be seen in competitive lists and teams.

Somehow I got the feeling GW is going to mess that up too. Every single new thing we've seen has been basically a lemon. The best of the units is the mediocre Stormsurge and the good side grade of the XV95.

Well, assuming the high output burst cannon is more shots on a burst cannon, and missile pods stay the same, I can feel happy that there are no FMC meltas or plasmas going around

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Dioxalyn wrote:
FMC Commander just got leaked! Thoughts? No Smash or Vector Strike but could be very interesting depending on our new support/signature systems.. Comes with a High Output Burst cannon and Missile Pod

That armour better give +1 Toughness/EW or else one melta or groundin check and you can say goodbye to it

Hah yeah right after I posted that I thought about that. I'm sure it will. Putting a shield gen and Stim injector on a FMC commander could make him pretty tough and able to kill stuff solo. as a FMC his attacks are AP2, giving him some decent close combat capabilities too. Im hoping the HOBC has a higher str than the reg BC, maybe its the riptides burst cannon without the nova charge, str6 ap4 assault 6


Edit: Whoops sorry guys didn't realize Smash is what made a MC's attacks AP2, ignore that part

He doesn't get smash. Shield Generator could be useful, but FnP I'm iffy about.

DE: Razorwing Dark Lance
Eldar: Crimson Hunter Pulse Laser
Orks: Traktor Kannon, mass Rokkits
Tyranids: S8 Vector Strike
DoC: S8+ Vector Strike
IoM: Stormraven Multi Melta and Fire Raptor
Tau: Skyray Seeker Missile

There is a lot of S8 Skyfire out there. Couldn't think of one for CSM but they do have Helldrakes which can easily cause a groundin check.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Our formations are going to have to be amazing for us to be seen in competitive lists and teams.

Somehow I got the feeling GW is going to mess that up too. Every single new thing we've seen has been basically a lemon. The best of the units is the mediocre Stormsurge and the good side grade of the XV95.

Out of curiousity, what would you do if Tau turned out as rubbish overall?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Tyranid Monstrous Creatures are in many cases overcosted and not durable enough compared to their counterparts. The army relies on unit synergy and massed numbers, but has only limited options with which to use these concepts. There is a reason why competitive Tyranid armies revolve around taking as many flying hive Tyrants as possible; by virtue of being undercosted the unit is actually effective for its points, which cannot be aid for a majority of tyranid units that aren't gaunts.

Well, that's because people are playing Tyranids wrong. Maxing out on Flyrants may be a popular to play but its not the only way to play, nor is it necessarily the strongest. Sean (OrdoSean on here) has had more success at high profile tournament than any other Nid player, and he maxes out on Lictors and Mawlocs. In my opinion I am sure the best way to play Nids is only 2x Flyrants and a strong mixed ground force with Carnifexes and Exocrine, rolling for Onslaught and the 1/3 chance of Master of Ambush, I've never lost a game that I rolled MOA (anecdotal tho it's undeniably crazy). Tyranid codex may have terrible internal balance, but outside of the outliers like Eldar and Tau, I do not think some of our better MC's are overcosted or outclassed at all, Carnifexes, Mawlocs and maybe an Exocrine are great units. Regardless, 5 Flyrant might be the quick and easy generic tourney list, but it has some big holes and bad match ups, I think this is just a misassumption about the Nid dex from how you've seen the internet groupthink mentality translate onto the battlefield. There is much more to the dex than Flyrants and thinking otherwise is objectively incorrect.


I personally think CSM and their bikes are one of the most if not the absolute most underrated army in the game, that's just my opinion though

 TheNewBlood wrote:
While Dark Eldar are in a decent position regarding power alone, they pale in comparison to the utter overpoweredness of Craftworld Eldar.

That's exactly my point bro. Eldar is one of the outliers as well, even more so, I don't see how you can think otherwise on that.

 Dioxalyn wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Dioxalyn wrote:
FMC Commander just got leaked! Thoughts? No Smash or Vector Strike but could be very interesting depending on our new support/signature systems.. Comes with a High Output Burst cannon and Missile Pod

That armour better give +1 Toughness/EW or else one melta or groundin check and you can say goodbye to it

Hah yeah right after I posted that I thought about that. I'm sure it will. Putting a shield gen and Stim injector on a FMC commander could make him pretty tough and able to kill stuff solo. as a FMC his attacks are AP2, giving him some decent close combat capabilities too. Im hoping the HOBC has a higher str than the reg BC, maybe its the riptides burst cannon without the nova charge, str6 ap4 assault 6

No smash, and it looks like the rules for the armour are right there in the entry, so...

 Frozocrone wrote:
He doesn't get smash. Shield Generator could be useful, but FnP I'm iffy about.

DE: Razorwing Dark Lance
Eldar: Crimson Hunter Pulse Laser
Orks: Traktor Kannon, mass Rokkits
Tyranids: S8 Vector Strike
DoC: S8+ Vector Strike
IoM: Stormraven Multi Melta and Fire Raptor
Tau: Skyray Seeker Missile

There is a lot of S8 Skyfire out there. Couldn't think of one for CSM but they do have Helldrakes which can easily cause a groundin check.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Our formations are going to have to be amazing for us to be seen in competitive lists and teams.

Somehow I got the feeling GW is going to mess that up too. Every single new thing we've seen has been basically a lemon. The best of the units is the mediocre Stormsurge and the good side grade of the XV95.

Out of curiousity, what would you do if Tau turned out as rubbish overall?

Keep playing them, but very grumpily and with lots of angrish involved. I wouldn't say our group plays at a tournament level but we do play semi-competitively. If that makes any sense. You won't see triple Riptides but you might see one or two flyrants and equivalent cheese of the factions played. But not an entire list dedicated to cheese top to bottom. I've been known to bring a Riptide and Y'vahrah in one list so it's pretty good list. Then again I also bbring Kroot because those guys look cool.

Rubbish was the wrong word to use, I should have said less-competitive but I didn't brain today.

Quite jealous of your meta. All of my friends have jumped on triple Canoptek Harvest/triple Helldrake/Thunderdome and I'm hesistant to buy my 4th Flyrant.

I have to say, the Thunderdome player used to play Tau - and nothing is changing his mind, apart from the Ta'unar.

"Yeah why would someone ever release something that decreases the power of something OP. How dare they let Tau move down the unbalanced ladder. "

Oh god some people....
Well you think it is a bad release because the units are not autoincludes? Well you might judge a release by the power level.
I on the other hand is happy. I see a successful release as something that released cool looking models where their power level is according to their lore and that their points is adjusted to be a balanced unit. Well balanced is relative with GW so asking as it's not op or gak I am more than happy

 Frozocrone wrote:
Rubbish was the wrong word to use, I should have said less-competitive but I didn't brain today.

Quite jealous of your meta. All of my friends have jumped on triple Canoptek Harvest/triple Helldrake/Thunderdome and I'm hesistant to buy my 4th Flyrant.

I have to say, the Thunderdome player used to play Tau - and nothing is changing his mind, apart from the Ta'unar.

My Chaos friend brings two Helldrakes. So like I said we play fairly balanced.

Yeah I want the Ta'unar pretty badly (but its banned in the ITC and we try stick to their guidelines). I would only use it if my opponents had some equivalent units of power and they don't or don't want to bring them. If I get the Ta'unar its not going to see the table that frequently. Only thing stopping me from grabbing one is the limited edition Tidewall fortification coming out. It's limited and it looks like it could be effective if they give it some good rules.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Chaos Space Marines lack virtually any form of inter-army or even unit synergy. Their units are in many cases overcosted compared to equivalent units form other armies, and lack any sort of flexibility in army composition. The only reason CSM are taken competitively is for the use of one of their few good units, the Heldrake, and as a means of taking Bel'akor as allies for your Chaos Daemons army. .

I've always called the CSM book the 'NEW UNITS BUY THEM NOW' book. And even then GW dropped the ball as the Mutilators, Warp Talons and arguably the Dinobots all turned out to be a pile of gak. You literally bought cultists and Heldrakes, splashed in Nurgle liberally and that was your army. Which was pretty much a huge slap in the face (again) for anyone with a pre 5th edition CSM army. And to make matters worse, the hobby section (as pitiful as it is now in the newer books) still seems to want to encourage people to use slapdash mishmash armies that look like a unicorn hopped up on some sort of hallucinogen spewed out a pack of skittles. Even their 'studio' Black Legion army is a train wreck as no one seems to have told them that having a consistent basing scheme improves an armies appearance by 50% easily - it wouldn't be so bad if they decided to continue with the changed basing scheme (from grey ash with static grass to that drab earth colour) but they didn't even do that - their new Warp Talons and Mutilators suddenly had static grass back on the bases.

Nevermind the fact that they seem to have these poor red and black CSM who can't decide whether they are World Eaters (vehicles in the 3.5 codex), Red Corsairs (5th ed codex) or Daemonkin.

Sure, the new Tau stuff doesn't look that hot.

But hey, at least you're getting a consistent looking painted army out of it. You could always be CSM with their mishmash basing scheme and constantly repainted models.

That is true. From a purely hobby viewpoint it's an excellent release and if I ever have time/money to get one of every Tau model I will.

Bobug wrote:

kburn wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

This kind of attitude is just as bad as those claiming the new codex is "the suck" 3 weeks before it's even released...
Yes, a few armies are always left in the dust eating poo sandwiches while agonisingly awaiting their turn at an update. That's no reason however to suggest or even wish that another army has to get a terrible book, just to make you feel better about your current out of date/under powered codex.

The problem is that the same few armies always get left at the bottom, nids (only average in 4th), orks (never good), IG (average, till 6th, then bad), CSM (Only good in 3rd), DA (never good) in every codex cycle.

The same few armies are also always on the top of the cheese pile every edition. Eldar has been massively overpowered for 25 years, and even the nerfing edition of 5th completely missed them (their codex did not get updated). Tau has been strong since 4th with Fish of Fury, average in 5th, then powerful from then on, especially with the riptide. Necrons has always been strong, just not eldar strong.

The rest are stuck in the middle, with some marine variant being above average each edition, but never coming close to eldar, crons or tau.

Now, this sees one of the top armies moving to average, but the whole purpose of the exercise is to buff eldar and keep the powergaming cheesemongers happy. Its no surprise that now, at the end of the good cycle, the only codexes left to update are the aforementioned bad ones. Expect rules like synapse to work by removing every model not covered by it, CSM somehow even becoming more bland, 13pt ork boys, etc.

Think you might want to check up your history there friend, IG were considered top tier for atleast a while during 5th, eldar were rather low tier during 5th, and tau were perhaps the worst army in the game (on par with chaos and nids) once fish of fury disappeared until 6th ed came out. To be honest the only "always top" faction has been necrons, with space marines always being atleast solid to good.

Yes though, dark angels and chaos always get shafted and trolled

nope. 5th was the nerf-edition, starting with the DA blandex. Eldar players are always ultra-quick to remind evereyone within earshot how they got "nerfed" by not having a codex, when in fact, they missed the entire edition of nerfing, and were as usual, at the very peak of the powercurve, maybe slightly closer to the rest of the pack, but that is unacceptable to them, because it made eldar too hard to play for them.

Pray, tell, why was IG considered good during 5th?

Caederes wrote:


This is also sadly incorrect. Necrons were trash in 5th Edition until the actual 5th/6th Edition codex written by Matt Ward came out. The only army that is consistently decent to good is Space Marines to my knowledge with maybe the exception of 4th Edition.

Chaos Space Marines were uber-strong in 3.5, while Dark Angels have a powerful new codex, so neither of those qualify either.

False.

Did you forget living metal and monolith spam in 3rd? Did you forget that all their stuff could glance anything to death? Did you forget reanimation protocols? The only thing that was bad was pariahs.

4th edition space marines had chapter tactics which made them extremely modular and responsive, it was their best dex if you ignore grav-spam. people keep saying SM were powerful, yet there were hard counters every edition, especially from eldar. SM has been solidly middle-class, never even coming close to touching eldar. Do you play eldar? This falsehood is often propogated by eldar players.

CSM was one of the top in 3rd with IW oblit/basilisk spam, good in 4th with lash prince, and average with hellturkey after that. Always a 1-trick pony with all other units being crap. Cult marines has been consistently bad, except sometimes with plague marines good once in a long while. They're the most similar to tyranids, except tyranids being much worse.

LOL @ DA being powerful. confirmed for eldar player.

So I would have to say that out of the current new releases that the Ghostkeel is easily the best one so far while the rest personally I find really cool, when breaking it down:

Breachers: Despite the hate they have recieved I still think they are a really good choice, especially when paired with Devilfish (basing this if their stats remain the same or if other releases have shown us gotten cheaper). They are really fluffy and i feel they can be quite devastating if used correctly.

Ghostkeel: As Mentioned above easily the best out of the new releases so far. With an amazing cover save on top of a T5 3+ armor save and the fact they can be taken in squadrons is really quite awesome! Their Weapon options are really the only thing I would say is a not so good due to the fact that the Fusion Small Blast weapon will probably never be used. The Ion weapon (x6 S7 AP4 Shots) is pretty damn amazing, especially when taken in a squadron and with Marker Light support and with the Cover shenanigans they should be able to stay alive barring they get caught in CC.

Stormsurge: Biggest complaint that I have about this guys is that I feel he is overcosted on top of having so many other units in the Codex that cand do what he can do for much cheaper points wise (based on the old Codex and when comparing to recent releases I dont see any super huge changes being made to weapons overall). Also being listed as a "Titan Killer" is comical when he only has a 10 inch range D weapon! Despite this I think it is still an awesome model and it can be best used decently as an anti-armor units (excluding Imperial Knights, Titans and Superheavies) thanks to a double shot S10 AP2 Ordnance Weapon but it does excel at killing infantry.

Coldstar Commander Suit: Honestly very lacking in terms of effectiveness when you break it down. 60pts. for your Commander Suit to become a FMC however with it lacking Vector Strike, Smash and Causing fear it really is underwhelming, especially since it is limited to only taking a Missile Pod and High Yield Burst Cannon (new weapon however not expecting anything crazy since it is a Burst Cannon) on top of only x2 Support Systems and access to drones, which if you decide to Swoop the Drones are removed from the battlefield! From a fluff and perspective side however this is awesome and very fluffy, the idea of my commander zooming through the skies dueling Flyers and Flytyrants is pretty badass, from a "competitive" or more tactical standpoint it is very underwhelming.

That being said however as mentioned we do not know the full extent of changes to the Codex so it is much to soon to make any final and definite guesses to the overall perfomrance of the book. Also it is WAY to early to right off the Codex and even these units, however I do feel that some Formation Special Rules are in order to truly make some fo these effectve. I do not mind if we end up being more of a middle tier Codex, maybe FINALLY Imperial Players will stop crying about how "OP" we are (we know were not!) and I personally welcome the challenge if we are left facing an uphill battle.

I kind of dig the Coldstar suit.

At 60 points and it's limitations, it's far from an auto include but I can see myself taking a second commander in a list for this upgrade and flying into my opponents backfield to rear armor light vehicles or force jink saves.

As long as i can still get a target lock, this FMC would clock in around 150 points, and that's not too bad.