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Don't bolters also wound on a 2+ (or is it a 3+, can't remember off the top of my head) and ignore their armour? In fact, that's pretty much every basic weapon in the game except yours.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Don't bolters also wound on a 2+ (or is it a 3+, can't remember off the top of my head) and ignore their armour? In fact, that's pretty much every basic weapon in the game except yours.

Bolters wound on a 3+ and ignore the 5+ armor. Some IG players just haven't figured out that guardsmen are priced to die.

Boltguns wound on a 3+ (Guardsmen are T3).

Fire Warriors are Guardsmen with better guns and a little better armor, but worse at CC. For about twice the price.

Wait, Tau actually have CC stats? I thought they just removed them a while back as they where never used.

I can't be the only one who's assaulted things with Fire Warriors...

Enough of them can do a wound or two!

To clarify, let's look at Tau shooting vs meqs and geqs. Let's give the tau two marker light counters. Against the geq, let's ignore cover. Against meq, let's get +2 BS.

.83333 * .66667 * .33333 = 0.185 * 14 = 2.59 pts/shot
.50000 * .83333 * 1 = 0.417 * 5 = 2.08 pts/shot

See how the tau are killing 2.59 pts/shot of meq and 2.08 pts/shot of guardsmen. Learn to understand how the IG works if you want to win with it.

Oh, and that was a TACTICAL marine. Which no one uses. Sub in a sternguard. Now we are up to 4.07 pts/shot. Or how about a terminator? 3.2 pts/shot. Or god forbid a vanguard with a power weapon at 7.4 pts/shot.

Guardsmen outshoot firewarriors mathematically, by the way, without markerlights.

Bharring wrote:
I can't be the only one who's assaulted things with Fire Warriors...

Enough of them can do a wound or two!

not against 2+ armor they cant, statistically speaking 3 guys out of 10 would hit , and less than 1 would force a save, of those less than 80% of the time would you kill one. to put things lightly youd need at least 30 firewarriors in a single CC to kill 1 terminator reliable, but with this 2 attacks base terminators literally ANY terminator (that isnt an oblit) will kill 1-2 fire warriors each every turn their left alive. after 5 rounds of combat the terminators will have won so badly your fire warriors turn and run.

CC is only good if you want to slow someone down as tau as they basically NEVER win

You don't want to see the math on Tau IA vs anything in the IG vs meq list. It's really embarrassing.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, Tau actually have CC stats? I thought they just removed them a while back as they where never used.

I recently played an APOC Game of SM vs Tau,

Calgar had 1W left and charged two firewarriors. Somehow he missed with 6 powerfist hits and wounds and the firewarriors hit back and wounded him. I rolled a 1 on my armor save but I luckily remembered my WL trait of 5+ FnP and saved myself form embarrassment and rolled a 6.

scariest CC ive have Calgar in

I always like charging vehicles with EMP grenades. It's pretty much my main anti-heavy armour tactic, as I have bad luck with melta-cides. Also, occasionally using a donkey-punch commander to mess with people.

Or when you have 2 6-man fire warrior squads with Pulse Carbines, each with 2xDrones, and there is a single remaining Berserker.

You don't need to beat great CC units on paper to be worth assaulting with. You just need to be able to beat the poor sod in front of you.

(And those 2,MLs thrown in above for free - that's 44pts of Pathfinders.)

OK, I'll bite.

Hotshot lasgun vs Pulse Rifle.

Pulse Rifle vs SM:
(1/2)(2/3)(1/3) = 1/9 kills/shot

Hotshot Lasgun:
(2/3)(1/3)(1) = 2/9 kills/shot

Lasgun
(1/2)(1/3)(1/3) = 1/18 kills/shot

PG on non-vet
(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 5/12 kills/shot.

Don't know points that well for IG.

Looks like Lasguns are half as good as Pulse Rifles. So the signature "crappy" gun designed to be weak but cheap is half as good as the signature "amazing" standard rifle, designed to be the best standard arm in the game. Sure, FW cost less than double a Guardsman, but still doesn't seem off to me.

Oh, and the PG definitely packs a punch per point compared to the Pulse Rifle.

I like carbines they spice up the game a lot, and people who haven't played by never expect tau to get up close an personal. One of the depressing things about the 6th book is that when a lot of new people picked up tau, they all went for the most obvious tactics, castling. So now people thing it's tau's only tactic.

never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

kambien wrote:
never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

Welcome to Codex: Orks (90% of everything is I2).

 jreilly89 wrote:

kambien wrote:
never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

Welcome to Codex: Orks (90% of everything is I2).

no reason why Orks are Int 2. baffles me that they would gimp them so hard.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

kambien wrote:
never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

Welcome to Codex: Orks (90% of everything is I2).

no reason why Orks are Int 2. baffles me that they would gimp them so hard.

Because Orks used to be able to compete with Space Marines..... Ill let you guess where this is going.

 jreilly89 wrote:

kambien wrote:
never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

Welcome to Codex: Orks (90% of everything is I2).

Or codex Necrons

oz of the north wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

kambien wrote:
never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

Welcome to Codex: Orks (90% of everything is I2).

Or codex Necrons

Or Daemons of Nurgle

oz of the north wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

kambien wrote:
never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

Welcome to Codex: Orks (90% of everything is I2).

Or codex Necrons

Cept everything lasts longer than Orks. 4+ FNP without Painboys

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

kambien wrote:
never any reason to assault something with tau , being a initiative 2 army is crippling . Imagine always going last , in almost every scenario .

If there is anything worth assaulting , you better off just over watching it instead . ( Unless it vehicles , and you brought the fire warriors with emp grenades and you screwed up your list and included pulse carbine instead of pulse rifles )

Welcome to Codex: Orks (90% of everything is I2).

no reason why Orks are Int 2. baffles me that they would gimp them so hard.

Because Orks used to be able to compete with Space Marines..... Ill let you guess where this is going.

Funny you should say that given that Orks can still deal with marines pretty damn reasonably well. The grav-spam that every bemoans so much doesn't affect an Ork army nearly as much as others and is overkill on things like our trukks and battlewagons and our prevalent 6+ t-shirt save. I get you have a vendetta against SM players, but don't tie us Ork players with you.

Also, while I think there should be more variation in initiative for certain units in the Ork book (Grotz, for example deserve to be I4 like Ratlings, and at least I3 for sneaky/faster guys like Kommandos) I2 for the basic boy makes sense since it represents the creature's swiftness of reactions, Orks generally are pretty slow witted so I2 is justified.

Orks' counter isn't marines. It's scatterbikes.

Martel732 wrote:
Orks' counter isn't marines. It's scatterbikes.

From the person who brought us "Nobody uses Tactical Marines", Gives us "Scatterbikes are counter to Orks"

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Orks' counter isn't marines. It's scatterbikes.

From the person who brought us "Nobody uses Tactical Marines", Gives us "Scatterbikes are counter to Orks"

Your point?

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see Eldar getting less shooty any time soon. Eldar players aren't going to magically stop using the official codex, so that puts us in an awkward position. The only option left to us is making Tau insane. Eldar are what they are.

This. Is it me or are those who are supporting the nerfs mostly eldar players? They come up with the false argument that it makes everything more fair and balanced, while their own codex sticks out as the pinnacle of overpoweredness.

Fine, now everything is nerfed to crap, they can play well against each other, but now, what about playing against eldar (who has been at the absolute pinnacle for 25 years) and necrons (who has been strong since 3rd)?

So now, our only options are spend 3-4 hours playing against eldar and get tabled, or don't play against them? The choice to make seems crystal clear to me.

So I should have to use the same kid gloves with my Tau that I do with my CWE to have a fun game?

Or should my SM, DE, Harlies, and Corsairs be shelved in the new Age Of Taudar?

The first is bad. The second is worse.

Bharring wrote:

Don't know points that well for IG.

Looks like Lasguns are half as good as Pulse Rifles. So the signature "crappy" gun designed to be weak but cheap is half as good as the signature "amazing" standard rifle, designed to be the best standard arm in the game. Sure, FW cost less than double a Guardsman, but still doesn't seem off to me.

I do know points well for IG, and just to throw some numbers out there...
Each Guardsman may cost a meager amount of points, but they bring very little to the table aside from weight of numbers and the ability to have a single Special/Heavy in each Infantry Squad.
The weapons you specifically pointed out?
Each Hotshot Lasgun is tied to a Scion. Scions necessitate a minimum points investiture of 70 points for 5 models; one of which has a Pistol/CCW(no Sergeants in this book carry their rifles unlike Tau).
Each additional Scion is 12 points. So 18" Rapid Fire S3 AP3(or S3 AP3 Pistol) is 3 points more than a Fire Warrior. That three points difference is because they're an Elites choice, because they're BS4, or the required Deep Strike rules(take your pick).

Lasguns come either 50 points for 9(remember--Sergeants don't get rifles!) in an Infantry Squad or 60 for 9 in a Veteran Squad. Both of those get you a T3 5+ platform that basically gets annihilated by Pulse Rifle fire.

Oh, and the PG definitely packs a punch per point compared to the Pulse Rifle.

Sure it does.
And a Plasma Gun costs fifteen points no matter if it's on a BS3 or a BS4 platform in the Guard book. So to add that "punch per point" compared to the Pulse Rifle, you're turning what is in some people's eyes already an overpointed model into an even higher points sink.

the Signless wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see Eldar getting less shooty any time soon. Eldar players aren't going to magically stop using the official codex, so that puts us in an awkward position. The only option left to us is making Tau insane. Eldar are what they are.

That's terrible logic because it stuffs like 10 match ups to fix one. Eldar are what they are. Let's not make that sentence Eldar AND Tau are what they are. One game ruining codex is enough.

So by your logic, only eldar, necron, da, and vanilla dex are allowed to win. The rest of us can't be brought up to their level because that would break the game. I get it now.

It means that codex power level should be balanced towards the mean, not towards the outliers. Especially not towards the outlier (eldar) that exists so far out that you have to redesign your entire graph to accommodate it.

The codexes you listed should be nerfed back towards the mean. Other codexes should be buffed towards the mean. That is how you make a balanced game, not by making every new codex the new best.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:
Girls, girl, you're both pretty. Back to the topic!

Am I pretty?

Yes

No, you know that's exactly not what I'm saying. Nice strawman. Especially since for what I'm saying about Tau applies to the same armies you just mentioned.

FYI I'm a Nids, DE and CSM player. So I know the struggle. But buffing any of these races to Eldars level just complicates the game and unbalances it even further.

If everyone is the Eldar, then things aren't complicated and not unbalanced.

If everyone is BA, or new Tau, then things aren't unbalanced.