The new tau so far are pretty disappointing.

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**Kilkrazy**

Open topped, and put together from a bunch of bits pinched from other Tau vehicles.

For £90.

**Kanluwen**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Open topped, and put together from a bunch of bits pinched from other Tau vehicles.

For £90.

What bits were "pinched from other Tau vehicles"?

Serious question, did you expect it to look radically different from the existing Tau stuff?

**BlaxicanX**

Kanluwen wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Whatever, it's a load of crap. To be fair, it's not as embarrassing as the Tau flyer models.

What is? The fact that it's open-topped?

The Basilisk, Hydra, and Wyvern would all like a word with you then.

The basilisk, hydra and wyvern are poorly designed.

Is that really the counter-argument you want to use? There's literally no reason for them to not have a closed compartment sans "muh WW2 aesthetic!"

**Kanluwen**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Whatever, it's a load of crap. To be fair, it's not as embarrassing as the Tau flyer models.

What is? The fact that it's open-topped?

The Basilisk, Hydra, and Wyvern would all like a word with you then.
The basilisk, hydra and wyvern are poorly designed.

Is that really the counter-argument you want to use? There's literally no reason for them to not have a closed compartment.

I'll agree with you on that(I have two of the 'new' Hydras but really wish I had the 'old' version and I want to get a pair of the close-topped Basilisks for myself soon)--but I don't think you quite understood why I made those comparisons.

For whatever reason, GW has been shifting things that are best described as "support platforms" into open topped platforms. I have no idea why they consider "support platforms=open-topped".

**Unusual Suspect**

Kanluwen wrote:
Unusual Suspect wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:

This^. I don't know why people are so down on it. (with Stabilizing anchors) 2 Str 10/AP2 Large blasts shooting at a deep striking deathstar with Early Warning Override is going to do some serious damage. Add in 8D6 Str5/Ap5 shots (average of 24), 4 Str 8/AP1 missies (single use), and potentially 2 str 4/AP5 Large blast, barrage, ignore cover shots (with airburst fragmentation projector). This is a crazy amount of damage to put out every single turn. All at different targets!

Correction: Early Warning Override provides Interceptor, which is used in the enemy's movement phase. The Stabilization anchors benefit is limited to the tau player's shooting phase. Thus, you're getting 1 10/2 Large Blast at the deepstrikeing deathstar BEFORE they get a chance to shoot or 2 of 'em AFTER they get a chance to shoot.

I generally agree with your sentiment, though - Stormsurges have a lot of firepower, most of that firepower has sufficient range to be effective across almost the entirety of the board, and specialized firepower isn't wasted on inappropriate targets (Sure, Hammerhead, fire those SMS at the Landraider. That'll help. ).

They aren't terribly reliable Anti-Knight, though, and utilizing an EWO is a greater tradeoff for the Stormsurge than the "Do I fire now, or fire later with ML support" decision made by most Tau units.

Read the rules on the Stormsurge.
It states that in your Shooting Phase and each subsequent Shooting Phases while the Stormsurge has its Stabilizers deployed can fire twice.

Is Interceptor firing in a Shooting Phase, or is it firing in a Movement Phase? Because I'm fairly certain its the latter, and nothing in the Stormsurge's rules suggests you're able to fire twice in anything except a Shooting Phase.

Reminds me of the "Multitracker benefits in Overwatch" debate, actually. It is perhaps more ambiguous that I initially thought, but it certainly isn't clearly on your side either.

**Bulldogging**

Unless the wording changed and I missed it, Interceptor happens at the end of the opponents "movement" phase.

I think the Stormsurge got screwed on that...though they went out of their way to say shooting phase. Maybe they didn't want it double tapping interceptor.

**Nilok**

Unusual Suspect wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Unusual Suspect wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:

This^. I don't know why people are so down on it. (with Stabilizing anchors) 2 Str 10/AP2 Large blasts shooting at a deep striking deathstar with Early Warning Override is going to do some serious damage. Add in 8D6 Str5/Ap5 shots (average of 24), 4 Str 8/AP1 missies (single use), and potentially 2 str 4/AP5 Large blast, barrage, ignore cover shots (with airburst fragmentation projector). This is a crazy amount of damage to put out every single turn. All at different targets!

Correction: Early Warning Override provides Interceptor, which is used in the enemy's movement phase. The Stabilization anchors benefit is limited to the tau player's shooting phase. Thus, you're getting 1 10/2 Large Blast at the deepstrikeing deathstar BEFORE they get a chance to shoot or 2 of 'em AFTER they get a chance to shoot.

I generally agree with your sentiment, though - Stormsurges have a lot of firepower, most of that firepower has sufficient range to be effective across almost the entirety of the board, and specialized firepower isn't wasted on inappropriate targets (Sure, Hammerhead, fire those SMS at the Landraider. That'll help. ).

They aren't terribly reliable Anti-Knight, though, and utilizing an EWO is a greater tradeoff for the Stormsurge than the "Do I fire now, or fire later with ML support" decision made by most Tau units.

Read the rules on the Stormsurge.
It states that in your Shooting Phase and each subsequent Shooting Phases while the Stormsurge has its Stabilizers deployed can fire twice.

Is Interceptor firing in a Shooting Phase, or is it firing in a Movement Phase? Because I'm fairly certain its the latter, and nothing in the Stormsurge's rules suggests you're able to fire twice in anything except a Shooting Phase.

Reminds me of the "Multitracker benefits in Overwatch" debate, actually. It is perhaps more ambiguous that I initially thought, but it certainly isn't clearly on your side either.

Ya, trying to go into detail about overwatch and intercepter and "shooting phase" cause the rules to break down, such as Heavy weapons being limited to the shooting phase as that is the only time it defines how many shots you fire with them.

If the support Signature Signature Systems still say to the effect of "can be used in the shooting phase but not during overwatch" my HIWPI is Shooting Phase rules trigger anytime you are allowed to shoot.
Sorry that got a bit YMDC.

**Lammikkovalas**

The one thing I want to say in this discussion is that are there any out there who feel that Dark Angels don't deserve their brief time in the top tier spotlight after 20 years of gak-tier codices?

Think about that. 2 decades being the worse version of vanilla marines and now A FEW BUILDS that have been viable in the competitive scene for a few months make people cry for nerfs. I say that there are absolutely no armies that deserve their time playing with the big boys as Dark Angels do. The long wait is over and now we can play our army just the way we want to instead of just green marines. Anyway I wouldn't mind if the codex was truly the book that people make it out to be instead of Codex: Ravenwing & Lion's Blade.

**Martel732**

Has anyone on here ripped DA? I have no problem with DA being competitive, but I do have a problem when that means they can run over 80% of the lists in the game without trying hard.

**kburn**

Bharring wrote:

If I roll a d6 5 times, and never get a 6, the *frequency* of rolling a 6 is 0, but the *probability* is 1/6.

There have been, what, 5 or so Eldar books? That means it was tested 4 times? If it were random, that's a 25% chance of happening. If you have 4 or more factions, you're likely to have at least one that fits that pattern, even if the choices were random.

4 binary events all going the same way is suggestive, but not very strongly.

Add to that that most updated dexes for most factions tend to be stronger than the previous one (5e dexes in 6e tended to lose to 6e dexes), and he predictive power is even worse.

With Eldar being so OP, its kind of a one-of-a-kind dex. So what are the odds of every single other (20-ish factions) book gets buffed to CWE levels? If it were even odds, we'd be looking at 2^20th, which is less than 1 in a million (literally). But its not likely even odds. If going by frequency, the CWE book is what, 5% of current books? That probability is truly tiny.

You're seeing 4 or so events that seem to line up, and ignore the event occurring in any other line, and taking the implication of that as a hard, irrefutable fact. And so you see any theory that requires the 5th event to buck the trend as impossible.

This is a false analogy. You take codex power levels to be entirely random, when in fact, it is biased to a large degree, seeing that there is massive human involvement and influence over them.

The hard facts are, every single eldar codex phil kelly writes seems to "one up" all the codexes around him, and the current CWE codex fits it to a T.

The only way to solve this is for phil to be fired, the same way the only way for tyranids to be strong is for cruddace to be fired.

**Martel732**

Who wrote C:Tyranids for 2nd ed? That book was unhinged!

**Bharring**

Of course its not random. Most things aren't. But our understanding of what drives them is from analyzing frequencies. That is how we can determine the biases. And that is where those numbers come into play. Four events in all of history is hardly conclusive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at it this way.

Whether an impeached president is thrown out of office is not random.

Every president ever impeached (2) has finished their full term.

That is certainly not enough data to say getting impeached guarantees that the president will finish their full term.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose that analogy requires a comparison.

That first argument would suggest there may be unlikely to be thrown out of office if impeached, but its unlikely.

There is one US president whos father was a goat herder..

Which is more likely? That every single future presedent will be the son of a goat herder, or that the next impeached president will be kicked out of office?

The former has happened once, the latter never. But the latter is certainly more likely (even though both are unlikely).

**Experiment 626**

I'll just borrow this from the N&R thread:

Vector Strike wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.

I don't want a broken codex. I want a codex on par with SM. Not much to ask, is it?
Still waiting for changes in other units. D missiles and stealth formation apart, all others were expected

more info:

Yes there is, and looks powerful:

Hunter Contingent:

Consists of:
0-1 Command
1+ Basic
1-10 Auxiliaries

Command:
- 1 Commander or Shadowsun
- 0-1 Ethereal or Aun'va or Aun'shi
- 1-2 Crisis bodyguards

Basic (Hunder Cadre):
1 Commander
0-1 Fireblade
0-1 Crisis Bodyguards
3-6 Strike, Breacher or Kroot
1-3 Stealht, Ghostkeels, Riptides or Crisis.
1-3 Scouts, Piranhas, Vespid, Drones
1-3 Broadsides, Hammerhead, Stormsurge, Sniper

Rules for Hunter Cadre:
- Defensive fire at 12"
- Can run and the shoot. In this order.

Rules for Hunter Contigent:
- Reroll Warlord trait
- Units can combine their shooting attacks, and shoot as if they were a single unit. So they can get benefit from special rules and the same markerlight, for example. This is really, really powerful.

We're Warmachine now
Way more interesting than doubling markerlight rumour. Bravo, GW.

Yeah, Tau are truly bottom feeders now!

Good job Dakka, please don't ever change - I've really needed a good laugh since Tuesday!

**nudibranch**

News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

**AtoMaki**

nudibranch wrote:
News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

It is a sad day to be an IG/AM player. Though, I wasn't expecting any less

.

**DaPino**

nudibranch wrote:
News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

Where did you get this info because seriously I won't play against that gak.

**Experiment 626**

DaPino wrote:
nudibranch wrote:
News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

Where did you get this info because seriously I won't play against that gak.

Then I highly suggest you don't go and read the currently exploding New & Rumors Tau release thread...

**nudibranch**

DaPino wrote:
nudibranch wrote:
News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

Where did you get this info because seriously I won't play against that gak.

Dude called Iuchiban on Warseer got the Codex early and is answering questions. A lot of the information he's posted is on the N&R thread.

**Akiasura**

So uh....yeah.
Tau now top tier with formations. Hot damn.

**DoomShakaLaka**

nudibranch wrote:
News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

Because this game needs more ranged D

**nudibranch**

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
nudibranch wrote:
News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

Because this game needs more ranged D

Specifically, 4 str D shots that can be fired at four separate targets in one turn...

**Bach**

Looks like there is also a new rule in formations for Riptides, Ghostkheels, Hammerheads, and Skyrays. They get 'Fire Team' special rule giving +1 BS for taking squads of 3 of the same unit.

That means take 3 riptides, 4BS for said riptides.
Take 3 Hammerheads/Skyrays, 5 BS for them.

This needs a second to sink in... ;D

**DaPino**

Experiment 626 wrote:
DaPino wrote:
nudibranch wrote:
News just in, markerlights make the Stormsurge's Destroyer missiles str D and the stealth suit formation is ridiculous. Native ignored cover, +1BS and always hit a vehicle's rear armour.

Where did you get this info because seriously I won't play against that gak.

Then I highly suggest you don't go and read the currently exploding New & Rumors Tau release thread...

Veni, vidi, faciem palma

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Bach wrote:
Looks like there is also a new rule in formations for Riptides, Ghostkheels, Hammerheads, and Skyrays. They get 'Fire Team' special rule giving +1 BS for taking squads of 3 of the same unit above.

That means take 3 riptides, 4BS for said riptides.
Take 3 Hammerheads/Skyrays, 5 BS for them.

This needs a second to sink in... ;D

Tsh - Potentially 12 str D shots on Turn 1 to up to 12 different targets. Moving on...

**Kilkrazy**

Kanluwen wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Open topped, and put together from a bunch of bits pinched from other Tau vehicles.

For £90.

What bits were "pinched from other Tau vehicles"?

Serious question, did you expect it to look radically different from the existing Tau stuff?

Absolutely not, yet the machine looks as if rather than designing it, the Tau engineers did a supermarket sweep in a spare parts warehouse and stuck all the bits they grabbed on the top of a pumped up Crisis Suit.

There's a bit of cockpit off a Piranha, a couple of ducted fan intakes off a Devilfish, a head off a Crisis Suit, another head off a different Crisis Suit, a Smart Missile off a Hammerhead, a pilot cabin off a Devilfish, a railgun off a Hammerhead, a couple of flamers off a Crisis suit...

Why would a long range artillery unit be equipped with flamethrowers anyway?

The top end of the thing is just a mess.

**nudibranch**

And finally, the cherry on top of this cheese sundae, the Tau Hunter Cadre formation. Basically, when one unit shoots at an enemy unit, all other units in the formation gain that first unit's special rules (and Marker Points, I think). Consider the Buffmander and cry.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

nudibranch wrote:
And finally, the cherry on top of this cheese sundae, the Tau Hunter Cadre formation. Basically, when one unit shoots at an enemy unit, all other units in the formation gain that first unit's special rules (and Marker Points, I think). Consider the Buffmander and cry.

I can only see rivers of money flowing to GW as the new rules are coming out and the "20%" of players throw them all their wages to get 3 skyrays/hammerheads/ghostkeels/stormsurges...

**TheNewBlood**

nudibranch wrote:
And finally, the cherry on top of this cheese sundae, the Tau Hunter Cadre formation. Basically, when one unit shoots at an enemy unit, all other units in the formation gain that first unit's special rules (and Marker Points, I think). Consider the Buffmander and cry.

Yes, this is the most ridiculous part of Tau that has been revealed so far. However, the Buffmander may not still be a thing, as the wargear page has yet to be spoiled for us yet.

I do like how the entire opinion of the forum can change in less than one day. Stay classy, DakkaDakka!

**DaPino**

TheNewBlood wrote:
nudibranch wrote:
And finally, the cherry on top of this cheese sundae, the Tau Hunter Cadre formation. Basically, when one unit shoots at an enemy unit, all other units in the formation gain that first unit's special rules (and Marker Points, I think). Consider the Buffmander and cry.

Yes, this is the most ridiculous part of Tau that has been revealed so far. However, the Buffmander may not still be a thing, as the wargear page has yet to be spoiled for us yet.

I do like how the entire opinion of the forum can change in less than one day. Stay classy, DakkaDakka!

Well, signature systems remained just about identical to the current ones according to the leaker, so I wouldn't hope on it. The whole "you can still use the old dex" isn't comforting either.

**chalkobob**

TheNewBlood wrote:
nudibranch wrote:
And finally, the cherry on top of this cheese sundae, the Tau Hunter Cadre formation. Basically, when one unit shoots at an enemy unit, all other units in the formation gain that first unit's special rules (and Marker Points, I think). Consider the Buffmander and cry.

Yes, this is the most ridiculous part of Tau that has been revealed so far. However, the Buffmander may not still be a thing, as the wargear page has yet to be spoiled for us yet.

I do like how the entire opinion of the forum can change in less than one day. Stay classy, DakkaDakka!

The one with codex has stated that signature systems seem to be identical.