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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
2/4 sounds good really, but really it's very delicate to change storm bolters due to their wide spread.

Besides Terminators and vehicles they are included on, who even uses Storm Bolters?

Sisters

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Stormbolters were potentially better at 12.1 - 24", and combi bolters were better at 1" - 12"

But, rapid fire weapons have changed over time and the lines have blurred a little bit more.

Err, this is exactly how it works now.

So then I'm confused as to what the OP is actually questioning. Since Stormbolters are still the superior weapon at 12+" How are combi-bolters somehow superior in every way to stormbolters? To use the OPs phrasing. Id have assumed something changed in the rapid fire weapon rules.

 n0t_u wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
2/4 sounds good really, but really it's very delicate to change storm bolters due to their wide spread.

Besides Terminators and vehicles they are included on, who even uses Storm Bolters?

Sisters

I am not familiar with Sisters since, well, no one I have ever met plays them.

Our group just made stormbolters Assault 3 @ 12" and still Assault 2 up to 24". Seems to help without contributing to the arms race.

That is a good idea. It does seem like 2 bolters strapped together should be able to produce more shots than a single bolter at close range.

Storm bolters are better with 12-24"?

 amanita wrote:
Our group just made stormbolters Assault 3 @ 12" and still Assault 2 up to 24". Seems to help without contributing to the arms race.

This seems like a good shout if you ask me (Or maybe strength 5). People who would like storm bolters to go salvo, I would like to draw your attention to Grey Knights, whose entire army uses them! Going salvo would push people even further away from the power armoured variants than they already are (Not to mention prevent them from shooting and charging).

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Edit: I made combi-bolters count as a ccw also, the chaos termies have giant chainsaw blades on the things for crying out loud!

So true.

Regarding the Storm Bolter vs. Combi-Bolter matter, I agree it's come to a point where the rules have simply deviated from the fluff. However, the fact that nowadays combi-bolters work better on terminators than storm bolters has also some sense to me: Combi-Bolters are meant to be archaic weapons, but in the 40k context many times "archaic" actually means better design and more efficiency, thanks to all that technological regression the Imperium has supposedly suffered since the days of the Great Crusade. So Chaos Terminators having more efficient shooting weapons than loyalists is not that bad, specially considering they do not have access to more recent cookies like storm shields.

Ignoring terminators for a minute: If storm bolters were A3, S4, AP5, Rending, and 5 points, I'd give one to every sergeant.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I am still unable to see why a Storm Bolter should produce more Shots then a Heavy Bolter, let alone the same number of shots as a boltgun hailed as a Relic.
Still say to just give Terminators Heavy Bolters though, the point cost doesn't even need to change because it would at least be 10 points we can account for.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I used to be in favor of them getting Assault Cannons base...

I still am in favour of Assault Cannons as the base weapon

S5 Storm Bolters where a thing back when GK had Psybolts, didn't make too much of a difference.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I am still unable to see why a Storm Bolter should produce more Shots then a Heavy Bolter, let alone the same number of shots as a boltgun hailed as a Relic.
Still say to just give Terminators Heavy Bolters though, the point cost doesn't even need to change because it would at least be 10 points we can account for.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I used to be in favor of them getting Assault Cannons base...

Assault cannons should be 10 points each and available to every terminator in a squad

/FU Eldar Bikers!

 Draco wrote:
Storm bolters are better with 12-24"?

They get two shots at that range, while the combi gets one TL’d shot. Not a huge advantage, but you have the potential of two hits.

Back in 3rd, SBs were a good way of getting mobile bolter fire. Rapid fire weapons could only fire once out to 12” on the move. (Standing still they could double-tap at 12, or one shot at max range). So while the stats have remained constant over the years, rapid fire was boosted every edition for a while, narrowing the gap between the two guns.

 kronk wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I am still unable to see why a Storm Bolter should produce more Shots then a Heavy Bolter, let alone the same number of shots as a boltgun hailed as a Relic.
Still say to just give Terminators Heavy Bolters though, the point cost doesn't even need to change because it would at least be 10 points we can account for.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I used to be in favor of them getting Assault Cannons base...

Assault cannons should be 10 points each and available to every terminator in a squad

/FU Eldar Bikers!

I don't know if this would even put them on the level of the bikers.
About double the cost, less mobile, but tougher, less effective range....

Maybe if for 40 points they came with Assault cannons and chaos marines got combi weapons for 30 points, they'd be alright.
I'm not sure to do with assault termies. Maybe give them FNP?

Assault Terminators: 2 wounds.

BAM! Instantly relevant again.

And the loyalists are indeed stupid.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
2/4 sounds good really, but really it's very delicate to change storm bolters due to their wide spread.

Besides Terminators and vehicles they are included on, who even uses Storm Bolters?

Sisters

I am not familiar with Sisters since, well, no one I have ever met plays them.

They trick you into getting a sister with one each time you got the 10 box, which made it more of a 9 box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
Assault Terminators: 2 wounds.

BAM! Instantly relevant again.

All termies 2 wounds.
Also let the tactical sergeant take a fist like the rest of the squad.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Marines can already get enough S4 shots. Giving it more shots as is won't make anyone want to take it.

The best way to make it appealing is S5.

Str5 AP5 or Str5 AP4?

S5 AP5

Terminator armour by default should give 2+ reroll able armour save. Invulnerable taken as normal.

That way point for point they are better at killing the units they were intended to fight.

Edit: I would add mega armoured ork armour to the reroll able 2+ armour category as well.

While I do agree SBs need something, I'm hesitant to give them S5. That would push Heavy Bolters even further out from their already measly position.

Storm bolters and combinations bolters are fine, the problem is the ease at which terminators die to small arms fire, which fluffwise should not be the case.

Terminators are not an ideal unit choice to kill scat bikes, but they should be able to weather the fire well which a 2+ rerollable save would give them.

 jreilly89 wrote:
While I do agree SBs need something, I'm hesitant to give them S5. That would push Heavy Bolters even further out from their already measly position.

 Konrax wrote:
Storm bolters and combinations bolters are fine, the problem is the ease at which terminators die to small arms fire, which fluffwise should not be the case.

Terminators are not an ideal unit choice to kill scat bikes, but they should be able to weather the fire well which a 2+ rerollable save would give them.

Storm Bolters are FAR from fine. They don't fulfill any actual purpose. Nobody actually buys them for any reason other than to help ward off Weapon Destroyed results in certain vehicles; you ever see a Sisters player take them over the Flamer or Melta, after all? Of course not. Any army with access to the Storm Bolter already gets enough S4 shots elsewhere, so why spend 5 points for ONE MORE outside of 12"? On top of that, the Storm Bolter is supposed to be the middle ground for three Bolter types here:

Bolter
S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 24"

Storm Bolter
S5 AP5 Assault 2 24"

Heavy Bolter
S5 AP4 Heavy 3 36"

That's a better natural progression anyway.

I play csm, we haven't gotten a new gun since second edition.

Storm bolters get a buff then combi bolters should get one as well.

Tbh they aren't horrible weapons, what I would prefer to see is heavy bolters given a buff and salvo so they are worth the extra points compared to a storm bolter.

Storm Bolters aren't really meant to be a mid-way point between a Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter, they're a Bolter that's vomiting more ammunition downrange than a normal bolter. Increasing their Strength doesn't really seem appropriate in that light, they're very much described as basically two bolters stuck together (and in fact, the CSM Terminators TL-bolter was originally treated identically in 2E.

Perhaps they should just be treated as such? If they really need a a boost, just treat TL-bolters & Storm Bolters as Assault 2, Twin-Linked. That would probably best reflect what they really are.

 Konrax wrote:
Terminator armour by default should give 2+ reroll able armour save. Invulnerable taken as normal.

That way point for point they are better at killing the units they were intended to fight.

Please no, you might as well just effectively say "immune to anything that isn't AP2", and that's not good for game balance nor represents what they're supposed to be. Even at their height of "resiliency" in 2E, they weren't that hard to kill.

With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Amanita,
I toyed with the idea of putting forth Rapid Fire 2 as a solution, which would produce the same 3 Shots at 1/2 Range but that was problematic as the loss of Assault could change how non-Terminator Units handle Stormbolters...
Your suggestion of giving 'range increments' to Stormbolters may be a better solution, and president has already been set in the new Tau Codex.

Kronk,
I am in favour of giving all Terminators 2 Wounds, there are other 1 Wound Models that suddenly become 2 Wounds if they are put into battle-suit like armour. Terminators are meant to be quite survivable, not a point sink because so many weapon systems exist to take out the heaviest of infantry armours, and an additional wound could make all the difference in that regard. I also agree with the option to take Assault Cannons and even Heavy Flamers on any of regular Terminators, with reduced costs for both of these options. A Unit with 5-10 Models worth 35 points each should be a Unit I am worried over, not something I can easily avoid the fire power of while I picking them off with weight of fire and/or plasma over the course of a turn or two....

 Konrax wrote:
With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Not every army is Eldar, running around with a gazillion AP2 weapons, particularly ranged options. There's neither a good balance nor fluff argument that their save should only have a 1-in-36 chance to fail, especially at the scale 40k is played at.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Not every army is Eldar, running around with a gazillion AP2 weapons, particularly ranged options. There's neither a good balance nor fluff argument that their save should only have a 1-in-36 chance to fail, especially at the scale 40k is played at.

There is fluff in the first couple HH books about a single unit of terminators walking across a bridge with hundreds of lasguns being fired at them and suffering no casualties.

In TT terms that would not work at all as all the terminators would be flooded with saves they couldn't possibly even hope saving.

Others did give them +1 wound, which would kind of be even better since many ap2 weapons wouldn't be able to kill them in a single shot.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Not every army is Eldar, running around with a gazillion AP2 weapons, particularly ranged options. There's neither a good balance nor fluff argument that their save should only have a 1-in-36 chance to fail, especially at the scale 40k is played at.

Eldar don't specialize in AP2, they specialize in "save 100 wounds! Can't? I guess you're dead".

 Konrax wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Not every army is Eldar, running around with a gazillion AP2 weapons, particularly ranged options. There's neither a good balance nor fluff argument that their save should only have a 1-in-36 chance to fail, especially at the scale 40k is played at.

There is fluff in the first couple HH books about a single unit of terminators walking across a bridge with hundreds of lasguns being fired at them and suffering no casualties.

You can probably find an example of just about anything at this point, but in general, Terminator armor is not fully proof against all non AP2 weapons. Bolters have been shown to kill Terminators, as have Krak missiles, claws, battlecannons, heavy bolters, power swords, etc, all of which are non-AP2 as well.

In TT terms that would not work at all as all the terminators would be flooded with saves they couldn't possibly even hope saving.

It's not much of a game if they can't really be hurt.

Others did give them +1 wound, which would kind of be even better since many ap2 weapons wouldn't be able to kill them in a single shot.

And then we've got entire squads of mini-characters again, and the game has lots of problems with those, particularly once you start getting "look out sir" rolls going. If they're going to get W2, they shouldn't stay 35pts either (units like Obliterators aren't paying 40pts each just for their guns).

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Not every army is Eldar, running around with a gazillion AP2 weapons, particularly ranged options. There's neither a good balance nor fluff argument that their save should only have a 1-in-36 chance to fail, especially at the scale 40k is played at.

Eldar don't specialize in AP2, they specialize in "save 100 wounds! Can't? I guess you're dead".

It's not like they can't do both. I mean, they can pack in gobs of S6 shooting *and* two dozen AP2 guns in most lists

Termainators are just so asymmetrical as to not be useful. Big expensive defenses, with no offense. This makes them a garbage unit no matter how you shuffle the deck chairs on the Titanic that is the Stormbolter. The game has move so far beyond S4 shooting it's unrecognizable from when the stormbolter was conceived. Without gauss or bladestorm, s4 shooting is a total joke.