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I'm rebuilding my CSM force, and trying to balance with Daemon allies. The basic idea is

Belakor
Nurgle Lord on bike with 2 Nurgle Spawn
Cultist tax
Heldrake
3 lv 3 Tzeentch heralds with grimoire, disks
7 screamers
11 pink horrors
2 Maulerfiends

Im worried about having enough AA. I don't know my local meta yet, buying online. I was thinking either:

Lose 1 Mauler and 1 pink horror (thus 1 WC) for a Khorne Soul Grinder

Or

Lose Heldrake for Nurgle or phlem soul grinder.

Keep as is, or swap for some AA? Can vector strike and flickering fire be enough? Heralds have exalted locus.

A Soul Grinder isn't actually good AA. Merely it just has an option to fire at things in the sky. I mean, they're still excellent units, but relying on them for AA isn't practical.

You could always ally in a Fire Raptor as well.

Soul grinders are actually pretty bad at anti air. None of their weapon options are very synergistic with 48" sky fire, and it's only 4 bs3 str7 shots. I don't even really think of them as AA platforms.

The daemons best chance at good reliable anti air is a daemon prince of slaanesh with wings and a lash of despair rolling for iron arm. 2 d6 str 9 shots at bs5 with effective 36" threat range is way better, but way expensive too.

I have brought flyers down more often than I thought I would with str6 flicker fire coupled with prescience or misfortune. A soul grinder has other uses, and more important things to do down field.

Might I suggest looking into a Chaos Fire Raptor? It's quite nice.

Starting from scratch... Yeah, fire raptor.rule the skies.

Give the heldrake the autocannon if you want more anti air?

I know most people dislike the autocannon heldrake, but it is 4 Str 8 (optional) skyfire shots on a mobile platform with a reasonable range.

Is it possible to build the model with the weapon piece swapable? If so at least this will allow you to easily switch out your list without having to switch out your carry case!

I magnetised mine. wasn't too difficult. I never use the autocannon tho.

Forgefiends can be pretty good at AA, especially if you Daemonforge that turn. 8 S8 shots, at least one is going to hit, especially rerolling.

Whoever suggested the Autocannon Heldrake...don't.

On average two shots will hit the target, you have a narrow fire arc, and you'd be getting that for 170 points? That's a terrible idea.

I guess I need to rephrase the question, clearly.

Are 2 maulers more effective than a fire raptor and 50 pts? The lord and sorta Belakor can handle some ground armor. Would it be better to ignore fliers and vector when possible or try for a single fire raptor?

Single raptors are awesome, and are better than two fiends. Merely but having a tonnes of guns that can fire at different targets each and every turn. Even two snooty fiends can only fire at two separate units. The raptor can fire at three.

My experience is that "Flyer" vehicles are less powerful than they were in 6th. Other stuff is just so crazy good now, that flyers are not generally the be-all-end-all they used to be.

I'd personally take a pair of Helldrakes, as I don't know what a Fire Raptor is. Give them flamers, and just tear the other flyers apart with Vector Strike. Pot shots from various Autocannon-like weapons should do the last HP or so.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Whoever suggested the Autocannon Heldrake...don't.

On average two shots will hit the target, you have a narrow fire arc, and you'd be getting that for 170 points? That's a terrible idea.

Personally I don't rate fliers at all. I don't use them and I generally find ignoring them, taking occasional pot shots with otherwise unoccupied units is the best strategy to deal with them.

The advice was given on the basis of he is going to have the Heldrake in his case, most the time he is going to want the flamer version anyway. I'll stick to the suggestion of carrying the autocannon piece in his carry case for the rare occasion he'll want to swap it out. Army transport practicalities are a real consideration for most people, and carrying a single spare piece is basically no concession at all.

But USING the Autocannon is a big concession. It's a worthless option and groundbound Havocs firing snapshots is a better choice for less points. Easy to carry around doesn't make the option good. Most people magnetize these sorts of things just in case, but that just in case scenario hasn't happened yet.

The Fire Raptor is scary no matter what your plan with it is. But I actually like Hell Blades too when I take a Gorepack for my Bike needs. With a Nurgle Bike Lord, that might not be an option unless you plan on Spawn Delivery, which again is FA... Hell Blades do make good little dogfighters though for few enough points that it's not crazy bringing two.

How about a Wall of Martyrs: Firestorm Redoubt? You could put havocs inside.

cod3x wrote:
I'm rebuilding my CSM force, and trying to balance with Daemon allies. The basic idea is

Belakor
Nurgle Lord on bike with 2 Nurgle Spawn
Cultist tax
Heldrake
3 lv 3 Tzeentch heralds with grimoire, disks
7 screamers
11 pink horrors
2 Maulerfiends

Im worried about having enough AA. I don't know my local meta yet, buying online. I was thinking either:

Lose 1 Mauler and 1 pink horror (thus 1 WC) for a Khorne Soul Grinder

Or

Lose Heldrake for Nurgle or phlem soul grinder.

Keep as is, or swap for some AA? Can vector strike and flickering fire be enough? Heralds have exalted locus.

You are worried about not having enough AA and you don't know the meta. I'd say you have enough AA right now and do not need to add anymore. You have two AA units in the Drake and Belakor already who can flame, vector strike and psychic scream various flyers already. No need to get anymore unless you are sure you will face flyer heavy armies and even then you probably have enough ground forces, with summoning, that you can ignore the flyers and control the ground. Anybody who brings enough flyers to overwhelm the drake and Belakor will be weak enough on the ground that you should be able to hold out against them.

Why not the Aegis Defense line? Allows a cultist unit to camp objectives better and provides AA.

Hell Blades are what you want for AA.

I don't know my meta or 7th edition very well, to clarify. I assumed two vector strikes and flickering glances might suffice, but given my tight points window, I wanted some experience to tell me if dropping a Mauler might be prudent.

I think dropping a Mauler for an ADL with quad and an extra screamer might be a good way to go of I run into triple vendettas or something.

I like swapping both maulers for a loaded up fire raptor. That's a bear of a gunboat when FW is allowed, and you don't lose much AV with the 3 targets thing.

I'll look into the Hellblade. Looks like 2 will fit if needed, but AV 10 2 HP... On first glance it looks like 10 bolter wolf gaurd would drop that thing.

The firestorm is something solid to toss in there just to cover it.

I'm going to say "fire raptor" for like the 8th time on this thread. But yes, it is that good. Do you somehow need more AA? Take a second heldrake. You will rule the skies

3 Hellblades with helstorm autocannons @345

3x5 havocs with 4 ac @ 345

you got you anti air pretty much covered n add in a adl+quad gun for good measure.