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Hello all,

While I'm in ardent anticipation of a proper Ad Mech codex I am thinking about current competitive armies I may enjoy in the meantime. Having read through a lot of the BA posts on here and elsewhere I see that they are currently considered pretty low tier, which is a shame considering their gorgeous model range.

My question is this: If I were to cherry pick some of the better BA units, (Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Sanguinary Priests, Fast tanks etc) and combine them with the toys and buffs of their Vanilla brothers as allies, would this army be on equal footing or worse off than a straight forward vanilla marines list? And what would you advise allying in to tip the scale in the BA's favor?

Thanks for your help!

It's a solid combo. Darkwynn's LVO list last year (second overall) was Ultramarines and Blood Angels.

What you take depends on how you want your list to function. I'd probably use a unit of Death Company myself.

Things that Blood Angels have (That Space Marines Don't): Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Melta Assault Squads and Sanguinary Guard. (Also tacticals with flamers all around, but that's not so important).

Things that Space Marines have (That Blood Angels Don't): Formations, better Scouts, Grav Centurions, and Storm Talons.

To answer your question: Winning Combo.

Think second place at the lvo was a mix of blood angels and sentinels of terra

And the Flamestorm Cannon Baal predator..... ohhoohooohoo

The only thing I can think of that BA could add to Vanilla is FNP by attaching Priests.

Since 5+++ is not a great asset by itself, you need to combo it with Iron Hands tactics, and better if you get Clan Raukaan goodies.

Death Company, Furioso, fast vehicles, BA formations, Vanilla have better and/or cheaper alternatives.

Honestly I disagree about those things having better or cheaper alternatives. You might say that white scars battle company rqzorbacks are better than BA razors with overcharged engines, while being significantly cheaper (20 points for las/plas vs 85), but you pay such a significant tax by fielding the battle company that a direct comparison is very difficult. And I would much rather have a fast tank than one with scout.

My current 1850 list is BA with the 1st Company Task Force formation, using imp fists chapter tactics. It works beautifully, as BA brings fighty librarians, 4x5 death company, some grav bikes and a couple of fast tanks to the table supplemented by point and click sternguard in pods. Everything works together exceptionally well.

Fragnoughts bring unprecedented anti infantry firepower to the table on a fairly durable platform, even if they lack the 4 attacks base of vanilla dreads. Tri or quad melta ASM squads in free pods are great, Sanguinary guard are significantly better than both honour guard or terminators, and Death Company are really one of the best assault units in the game. Not to mention the obligatory sanguinary priests everyone loves.

So yes, combining BA with vanilla marines works like a charm, and there are plenty of reasons to take them over just straight SM.

I seems like a good combo
Fast vehicles, Turbo-Boosting Characters, Death Company,Frag Cannons, Great Tactical Objectives (a VP for issuing a challenge??),S5 I5 marines on the charge,Great Characters, Sanguinary Guard and Inferno pistols and Hand Flamers
Sure Blood Angels are a Low-Tier Codex, But they make great allies

They also make a great primary detachment when supplemented by allies that fill in our gaps

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly I disagree about those things having better or cheaper things

Librarian conclave? Skyhammer? Tigurius? Hunter eye? Centurion? Chapter tactics (any)? Chapter Master? How can you say BA have something equal or even better to these units or formations? And I left out many more.

I'm currently building a Blood Angels codex primary detachment CAD (from the BA codex, the +1 initiative when charging choice) with the following:

Jump Pack Librarian, a 10 man Jump Pack Death Company, Jump Pack Honor Guard, a Pod-based Fragioso, Pod based tactical squads (Flamer/Melta) with some infiltrating scouts, some Jump Pack Assault Marines w/ Melta, and a Storm Raven for air support.

Supplemented with that, I'll be bringing a Culexis Assassin allied in as a single model allied formation, as well as the First Company Task Force Formation using Deathwatch marines to represent the Sternguard (Makes sense, thematically, etc) that will likely have either Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics. Three Drop Pods with 5 man Sternguard Combat teams, kitted with two to three combi-melta/Plasma/Grav each.

Lots of small units that hit hard when they hit. I'm debating bringing a second Librarian as this will be my 'tournament' list for lack of a better term. I'm looking forward to trying it out in the near future. Just have to get all the supplements together for the rules, etc.

Blood Angels are behind the curve currently, but they still work very well as an ally, or as a primary detachment if you know what you're doing and are willing to think outside the box a bit.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly I disagree about those things having better or cheaper things

Librarian conclave? Skyhammer? Tigurius? Hunter eye? Centurion? Chapter tactics (any)? Chapter Master? How can you say BA have something equal or even better to these units or formations? And I left out many more.

And these take the place of Sanguinary Guard, Priests, Death Company, and fast tanks how? Skyhammer isn't all that scary, the Librarius Conclave is easily dropped in to our lists, we have Mephiston instead of Tiggy (yes, Tiggy is better but Mephiston is still a baller). You were implying that the vanilla dex has units that do the job of our unique units better than they do (highly mobile firepower or fast moving and reasonably durable assault units), which is false.

 th3maninblak wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly I disagree about those things having better or cheaper things

Librarian conclave? Skyhammer? Tigurius? Hunter eye? Centurion? Chapter tactics (any)? Chapter Master? How can you say BA have something equal or even better to these units or formations? And I left out many more.

And these take the place of Sanguinary Guard, Priests, Death Company, and fast tanks how? Skyhammer isn't all that scary, the Librarius Conclave is easily dropped in to our lists, we have Mephiston instead of Tiggy (yes, Tiggy is better but Mephiston is still a baller). You were implying that the vanilla dex has units that do the job of our unique units better than they do (highly mobile firepower or fast moving and reasonably durable assault units), which is false.

Vanilla do the same work in a better way and if not the same something different but more effective.
IH chapter tactics and clan raukaan may be more effective than death company, as are Raven Guard jump units and their new formations from Kauyon. Raven Guard Vanguard units are the dream of every Blood Angels.
our melta drop assault can be matched by Vulkan guys with twin linked
Melta throughout the entire army.
Any Vanilla Librarian is better, just having Telephaty is worth of it.
Relics and warlord traits is something that doesn't need examples.

This at least my opinion.

Blood Angels are good if you know what you are doing
For example, i know how to create a Dreadnought army (with a Warhound Titan) Legally (without going unbound) By looking at what variants of the CAD the Blood Angels have
And if i roll up invisibility on one of my librarian dreadnoughts the buckets will be out collecting tear of my foes as they try to destroy an invisible titan

IH better than death company? Better at what? Surviving, yeah arguably, well most probably actually, but if you are buying death company as bullet sponges instead of absolutely ruining whatever the hell the like when they get the charge, I'd argue you are using them wrong.

Whilst it can be tricky to get there, they are going to munch through most things they get the charge off against, they are in my opinion some of the best line breaking units in the game, they can wipe out huge units or even small elite ones with pure weight of attacks, let alone a few thunder hammers here and there knocking wounds or straight up ID'ing things that are a bit too tough for a ridiculous amount of S5 attacks.

Anyway, IH and death company are not comparable, they fulfil different roles.

commander dante wrote:
Blood Angels are good if you know what you are doing
For example, i know how to create a Dreadnought army (with a Warhound Titan) Legally (without going unbound) By looking at what variants of the CAD the Blood Angels have
And if i roll up invisibility on one of my librarian dreadnoughts the buckets will be out collecting tear of my foes as they try to destroy an invisible titan

"


I can do the same thing with vanilla except use the FW guy for guaranteed invis.

The BA aren't good period. Their entire concept is fatally flawed in 7th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm currently building a Blood Angels codex primary detachment CAD (from the BA codex, the +1 initiative when charging choice) with the following:

Jump Pack Librarian, a 10 man Jump Pack Death Company, Jump Pack Honor Guard, a Pod-based Fragioso, Pod based tactical squads (Flamer/Melta) with some infiltrating scouts, some Jump Pack Assault Marines w/ Melta, and a Storm Raven for air support.

Supplemented with that, I'll be bringing a Culexis Assassin allied in as a single model allied formation, as well as the First Company Task Force Formation using Deathwatch marines to represent the Sternguard (Makes sense, thematically, etc) that will likely have either Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics. Three Drop Pods with 5 man Sternguard Combat teams, kitted with two to three combi-melta/Plasma/Grav each.

Lots of small units that hit hard when they hit. I'm debating bringing a second Librarian as this will be my 'tournament' list for lack of a better term. I'm looking forward to trying it out in the near future. Just have to get all the supplements together for the rules, etc.

Blood Angels are behind the curve currently, but they still work very well as an ally, or as a primary detachment if you know what you're doing and are willing to think outside the box a bit.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

That list is thoroughly unimpressive. Of course, if I could make an impressive BA list, I would do so. Saying that BA are behind the curve is such an understatement. They literally have no access to anything that makes marines a competitive force. Probably the single biggest problem is no access to the grav cannon.

Martel732 wrote:
That list is thoroughly unimpressive. Of course, if I could make an impressive BA list, I would do so. Saying that BA are behind the curve is such an understatement. They literally have no access to anything that makes marines a competitive force. Probably the single biggest problem is no access to the grav cannon.

And here we see another reason, boys and girls, why Red__Thirst has Martel732 on ignore.

SO what if it's unimpressive? I like the models and enjoy painting and playing (and winning) with them in my meta and against my regular casual opponents. I don't play tournaments unless it's a local one that we host for fun, and in those tournaments I usually do alright also.

Seriously man, do you suffer from a cognitive disorder or some other mental issue that makes it so you literally can't even engage in a conversation without being the tee-total epitome of negative, not to mention condescending? If so, please tell me, so I can pity you while I ignore you more from this point on.

Go find some other hobby if this one causes you this much heartburn. Leave those of us who enjoy the game to our own devices and enjoyment without you dragging the lot of us down with your constant, droning negative vitriol spewing forth like a giant ruptured sewer pipe.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Ahh, it just can't be a true BA tactics thread without Martel. Feels like home now. Ignore him, he's a troll.

I'm finding that MSU strategies favor BA very well. None of our units are particularly expensive unless we go overboard. A chaplain to carry the Veritas Vitae, some small units of death co, quad meltacide pods, fast preds, maybe some razorbacks. It's pretty easy to put 9-12 units on the table on turn 1, which messes with your opponents target priority hard.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That list is thoroughly unimpressive. Of course, if I could make an impressive BA list, I would do so. Saying that BA are behind the curve is such an understatement. They literally have no access to anything that makes marines a competitive force. Probably the single biggest problem is no access to the grav cannon.

And here we see another reason, boys and girls, why Red__Thirst has Martel732 on ignore.

SO what if it's unimpressive? I like the models and enjoy painting and playing (and winning) with them in my meta and against my regular casual opponents. I don't play tournaments unless it's a local one that we host for fun, and in those tournaments I usually do alright also.

Seriously man, do you suffer from a cognitive disorder or some other mental issue that makes it so you literally can't even engage in a conversation without being the tee-total epitome of negative, not to mention condescending? If so, please tell me, so I can pity you while I ignore you more from this point on.

Go find some other hobby is this one causes you this much heartburn. Leave those of us who enjoy the game to our own devices and enjoyment without you dragging the lot of us down with your constant, droning negative vitriol spewing forth like a giant ruptured sewer pipe.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

That post is fantastic. Thank you!

As for Blood Angels complementing Vanilla Marines, from what I have seen it tends to be very context dependent. If you are playing Maelstrom missions, the Blood Angels playstyle really suits these missions, especially when there's a good amount of LOS blocking terrain. So if your group plays Maelstrom then I'd say go for it! They can provide threat bubbles around objectives while your Vanilla marines focus on capturing points, or killing important enemy units. Relatively cheap, elite units like jump pack death company and sanguinary guard could be your best bet. Plus mobile, heavy support tanks like predators and vindicators are nothing to laugh at.

I've personally wondered how a Sentinels of Terra list (Grav cents as elites and heavys) allied with some massed BA pods would do...I think you can get 5 3-man grav cent squads to DS on turn 1.

The BA SM mix fell flat once C:SM could take their own pods. OP is asking about BA in regards to competitive play, which makes how they work in casual/friendly games a moot point. BA has good internal balance making us a great book for casual play, but not in a competitive format.

This is of course just my opinion, but the unique BA competitive units are Priest and Vertias vitae relic. I can't think of another slot that C:SM can't do better.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That list is thoroughly unimpressive. Of course, if I could make an impressive BA list, I would do so. Saying that BA are behind the curve is such an understatement. They literally have no access to anything that makes marines a competitive force. Probably the single biggest problem is no access to the grav cannon.

And here we see another reason, boys and girls, why Red__Thirst has Martel732 on ignore.

SO what if it's unimpressive? I like the models and enjoy painting and playing (and winning) with them in my meta and against my regular casual opponents. I don't play tournaments unless it's a local one that we host for fun, and in those tournaments I usually do alright also.

Seriously man, do you suffer from a cognitive disorder or some other mental issue that makes it so you literally can't even engage in a conversation without being the tee-total epitome of negative, not to mention condescending? If so, please tell me, so I can pity you while I ignore you more from this point on.

Go find some other hobby if this one causes you this much heartburn. Leave those of us who enjoy the game to our own devices and enjoyment without you dragging the lot of us down with your constant, droning negative vitriol spewing forth like a giant ruptured sewer pipe.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

This. So many times this.

Anyways, after changing my underwear, I'd like to try an allied detachment of 10 Jetpack DC with a Chaplain or a Libby and 2 PFs for my Imperial Fists. The only question I have is: for the troops choice do I go with WS/BS 3 scouts or a more pricy but nice Rhino with 5 tacs and a HF?

I'd go Scouts with Combat Blades. Gives you a bit more Melee to supplement your bolter drill, or to have as a combat squad ready to assault units that get near your backfield units. 15 s5 attacks for 55 pts ain't too shabby (and maybe your meta will house rule as ws4, making them better)

Remtek wrote:
The BA SM mix fell flat once C:SM could take their own pods. OP is asking about BA in regards to competitive play, which makes how they work in casual/friendly games a moot point. BA has good internal balance making us a great book for casual play, but not in a competitive format.

This is of course just my opinion, but the unique BA competitive units are Priest and Vertias vitae relic. I can't think of another slot that C:SM can't do better.

Because this. That's why BA are a waste of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That list is thoroughly unimpressive. Of course, if I could make an impressive BA list, I would do so. Saying that BA are behind the curve is such an understatement. They literally have no access to anything that makes marines a competitive force. Probably the single biggest problem is no access to the grav cannon.

And here we see another reason, boys and girls, why Red__Thirst has Martel732 on ignore.

SO what if it's unimpressive? I like the models and enjoy painting and playing (and winning) with them in my meta and against my regular casual opponents. I don't play tournaments unless it's a local one that we host for fun, and in those tournaments I usually do alright also.

Seriously man, do you suffer from a cognitive disorder or some other mental issue that makes it so you literally can't even engage in a conversation without being the tee-total epitome of negative, not to mention condescending? If so, please tell me, so I can pity you while I ignore you more from this point on.

Go find some other hobby if this one causes you this much heartburn. Leave those of us who enjoy the game to our own devices and enjoyment without you dragging the lot of us down with your constant, droning negative vitriol spewing forth like a giant ruptured sewer pipe.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Because the OP asked if the BA were a waste of points as allies. And they are.

My "cognitive disorder" is getting my gak stomped in by Eldar, Necrons, and TWC. The same problem you would have if you played anyone who knew what they were doing.

I shouldn't be able to drag you down while on ignore. So just ignore me and don't reply to anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ahh, it just can't be a true BA tactics thread without Martel. Feels like home now. Ignore him, he's a troll.

I'm finding that MSU strategies favor BA very well. None of our units are particularly expensive unless we go overboard. A chaplain to carry the Veritas Vitae, some small units of death co, quad meltacide pods, fast preds, maybe some razorbacks. It's pretty easy to put 9-12 units on the table on turn 1, which messes with your opponents target priority hard.

9 units really won't, but 12 maybe. Even then, it's pretty easy to pick which ones to take out. The BA can sometimes steal a maelstrom where the cards come up just so, but ironically, this result is not really dependent upon BA list composition. If you really must use something like the DC, don't be a total fail: leave the chaplain and bring the librarian. Don't use infernus pistols, either. They make the people who pay for them sad pandas.

commander dante wrote:
Blood Angels are good if you know what you are doing
And if i roll up invisibility on one of my librarian dreadnoughts the buckets will be out collecting tear of my foes as they try to destroy an invisible titan

Except...BA don't have access to telepathy, and therefore don't have access to invis with a Libby dread.

EDC

 evildrcheese wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Blood Angels are good if you know what you are doing
And if i roll up invisibility on one of my librarian dreadnoughts the buckets will be out collecting tear of my foes as they try to destroy an invisible titan

Except...BA don't have access to telepathy, and therefore don't have access to invis with a Libby dread.

EDC

Clearly, you're just trolling by pointing out facts about BA.

Martel732 wrote:

 evildrcheese wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Blood Angels are good if you know what you are doing
And if i roll up invisibility on one of my librarian dreadnoughts the buckets will be out collecting tear of my foes as they try to destroy an invisible titan

Except...BA don't have access to telepathy, and therefore don't have access to invis with a Libby dread.

EDC

Clearly, you're just trolling by pointing out facts about BA.

Have an exalt for the funny. Seriously though folks Martel do offer some premium advice, even if you need to add salt because you play in a less competitive environment there's quite often truth and insight in his posts.

EDC

If jump pack meqs weren't just about the worst thing in the game atm, this concept would work a lot better. The vanilla marines do have assault elements like honor guard that don't require them to dip into the BA codex. If you want to bother to assault.

No one is more unhappy that the BA have no role more than I. Trust me.

 evildrcheese wrote:
Have an exalt for the funny. Seriously though folks Martel do offer some premium advice, even if you need to add salt because you play in a less competitive environment there's quite often truth and insight in his posts.

EDC

With respect EDC, a wise man once said: It's not what you say, but how you say it.

I have no problem with what Martel says, or the fact that he's vehemently anti-Blood Angels in all their forms, or even that he offers sometimes moderately helpful advice.

It's the tone, and constant negative, even borderline insulting attitude he projects through his posts. Hence my statement above and why he's on perma-ignore.

Just my opinion on that end.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I have no patience left for sugar-coating any aspect of this dumpster fire of a codex. If that rubs some the wrong way, so be it. I also have no patience for people trying weedle out an argument about why a terrible unit is anything other than terrible. Metas don't change which units are terrible, they just might make terrible units viable. Anyone who played BA in 3rd or 5th or even 4th knows that this incarnation is a giant steaming pile of gak. I'm insulted. Constantly, by this codex. Maybe that's what you are reading.

It doesn't sound like Red Thirst plays somewhere where the terribleness of the BA even matters, so kudos to him. I'm lucky to have models left on turn 4, usually. So think about that.