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ANY model that:
a) is a Veteran; and
b) can take ANY regimental standard
can take the Cadian regimental standard.

There doesn't need to be anything more complicated than that. If anywhere in the model's rules it meets both of the above criteria, and it isn't taken away by some other rule, it is eligible for the CRS.

With your asinine "Relentless" argument, you're saying models that don't have the "Relentless" trait gain the Relentless rule.

And with that, I'm Ignoring you from here out.

Except that permission is specifically granted for a Vet that... well, you know.

You're creating a snag that doesn't exist, by taking the general "These guys can take Relics" and applying that rule to the specific "A Vet Can take this relic".

In 40k, specific always trumps general. In this case, a specific rule outranks the general rule, allowing a Vet... well, again... you've read the rules.

Your Relentless argument falls flat, in that relentless gives specific permission to those that have the rule, which overrides the general "can't move and fire heavies at full bs". In this case, there's a general rule, overridden by a specific rule.

Ok, let me try this: can my sm vet sgt take a heavy bolter?

Please explain your answer.

And the relentless example was following your logic. "It says models that have the rule", but it doesn't say only models that have the rule.

So if a model can benefit from a relic, but that model does not actually have permission to access the relic list(which if you go back to the first page you will see I had pointed out as an oddity and stated when pointing it out that the RAI is clear that the standard bearing vet can take the standard of the lost); and that makes it ok for him to access the relics because the relics rules never state that only those models permitted to access them may; then anyone may benefit from relentless(or any other special rule) and any model may access any list whenever we feel like thus negating the whole of the rules and we can all just go back to playing with dollar-store army-men.

Who cares. It's a rather sub-par thing anywayz. 113 company got lost cause of it. It literally makes you dumb and immobile.

It's a PoS relic, why worry about it?

The company command squad giving 3 orders is nifty when you take forgeworld artillery (such as rapier laser destroyers and medusa siege guns) and the swagger stick of anything but boxcars into consideration.

Scouting armored sentinels is cool, ghetto battle focus order plus the sniper/pinning one is neat too.

The lack of ob-sec really bothers me. If anything in the game should be objective secured, surely it's 50 guardsmen. But no. A drop pod projects more presence. F*** you GW, f*** you.

As mentioned, artillery company is good, three orders on artillery and a MoO can wreck some bike face.

The russ formation is weird. Without great access to ignores cover, you really want them kicking out lots of shots and not worrying so much about templates. This means that he's looking at an exterminator or punisher (or eradicator with bolter sponsons). The ramming thing might be handy if you can get close enough to the jinking chicanery that runs around these days. Even so, you're already ramming at s10 (7 + tank + heavy), so...?

The veteran formation is quite cool. Obsec on a command squad and free preferred enemy for the low low cost of a hellhound (which is actually pretty good anyway)? Yes please. If this was a core formation, the whole multi-formation detachment would be much more appealing. Alas. Still, I suppose the benefits are a bit marginal all things considered.

You could also do some pretty hilarious priest stars, depending on the choice of interpretation regarding astra militarum detachments. According to the 'dex, any Astra Militarum detachment may take 0-3 priests. So with a 1+ command squad giving you a detachment, you could take up to 9 priests in an ITC army.

Oh, and scoutshame/company command pod spam is totally a thing.

You can lead a man to the fountain of knowledge, but you can't make him think. We'll all just agree that a Vet can take that Standard, either through RAI or RAW, whichever a person prefers.

Do you happen to have any useful insights there, Master Kel? Something, say, "useful" to share with the class? Some kind of nugget of knowledge, that might be interesting to your peers?

Yeah, I did that before Kanwulen claimed I didn't understand RAW. You responded.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that makes me sad, Kel, I missed the part about range only working within the same detachment.

I suppose I should drop that 10 / 10 now. :(

That was your response.

Yeah, that part was good. I mean, anything else, that could be useful? I was sort of hoping to dig out of this hole and get back to something interesting / good again.

Have you had a chance to try any of these formations out? I'm hoping to give one or two a shot this weekend.

I actually have not. But I have had some Ideas using the formations and a minimum CAD(and points I brought up earlier).

CAD:
Lord Commissar, gear to taste(maybe celeritas)
2 Chimelta-vets
4 or 5 commissars with power fists(granted by formations having command squads in my army, assigned to both shield platoon blobs, the pcs, and 1 or both vets(both if I cannot fit the russes). The lord commissar joins the artillery command.)

Artilery formation
Co-com with medic, lascannon, MoO, plasma gunner(pcs jacks the ride)
2 separate Bassies
Manticore

2 Battlegroups with just company command(for the extra order)

Emperor's shield platoon(3 squads with lascannon blobbed, 2 with heavy bolter blobbed, 1 flamer in each group, grenade launcher with bolter, 2 plasma with las) Plat comm has medic and 3 flamers. 1 or 2 plasma cannon armored sentinels.

If I have the points a russ formation of 3 individual tanks with a single additional tank with the commander. Otherwise another artillery company(and one of the battlegroup command squads gets outfitted like the pcs and jacks this chimera).

This gives me 3-4 forward infantry elements(2 with obsec in chimeras, and the pcs can jack the artillery commanders ride), a walker as backup, co-com squads issuing orders to the platoon blobs, whole army rains death everywhere.

Seems that you can't take priests in decurion. Following the wording for non-slot guyz from the codex.

 koooaei wrote:
Seems that you can't take priests in decurion. Following the wording for non-slot guyz from the codex.

The priest entry states that an imperial guard detachment may include 0-3 priests who do not take up an HQ slot. Since the Cadian thing is an imperial guard detachment, I'd assume you could take 0-3 priests.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I actually have not. But I have had some Ideas using the formations and a minimum CAD(and points I brought up earlier).

CAD:
Lord Commissar, gear to taste(maybe celeritas)
2 Chimelta-vets
4 or 5 commissars with power fists(granted by formations having command squads in my army, assigned to both shield platoon blobs, the pcs, and 1 or both vets(both if I cannot fit the russes). The lord commissar joins the artillery command.)

Artilery formation
Co-com with medic, lascannon, MoO, plasma gunner(pcs jacks the ride)
2 separate Bassies
Manticore

2 Battlegroups with just company command(for the extra order)

Emperor's shield platoon(3 squads with lascannon blobbed, 2 with heavy bolter blobbed, 1 flamer in each group, grenade launcher with bolter, 2 plasma with las) Plat comm has medic and 3 flamers. 1 or 2 plasma cannon armored sentinels.

If I have the points a russ formation of 3 individual tanks with a single additional tank with the commander. Otherwise another artillery company(and one of the battlegroup command squads gets outfitted like the pcs and jacks this chimera).

This gives me 3-4 forward infantry elements(2 with obsec in chimeras, and the pcs can jack the artillery commanders ride), a walker as backup, co-com squads issuing orders to the platoon blobs, whole army rains death everywhere.

I actually ran the arty formation with a squad of 2 Basilisks, a manticore and a wyvern. The wyvern doesn't get any benefit but then I could order both lisks and the manticore.

Also can you blob two squads out of the same platoon? I thought the choice was everything in one blob, or no blob?

Ether wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Seems that you can't take priests in decurion. Following the wording for non-slot guyz from the codex.

The priest entry states that an imperial guard detachment may include 0-3 priests who do not take up an HQ slot. Since the Cadian thing is an imperial guard detachment, I'd assume you could take 0-3 priests.

I have posted on this earlier(and just realised something related this morning).

"Slots" are only used in FOC detatchments, for everything else it is simply a (battlefied role)-unit. So an FOC HQ slot is also an FOC HQ unit, but a formation company command squad is only ever a HQ unit within the formation. Formations do not used slots so units that do not take up slots do not do anything in a formation.

On top of that Formations specify which units are in them by specifying a unit entry, if that unit entry allows for another unit entry to be accessed those are also allowed unless the formation restrictions deny them(and sometimes the restrictions force the associated entry) examples include: dedicated transports, platoons, and engineseer servitors.

Minisortium priests and commissars have their allowance within their own entries and are thus not accessible.

A formation can remove requirements for access to a unit entry just by listing that entry(if there were a formation of just heavy weapon squads you would not be required to have platoon infantry squads to access them from the platoon), and example of this currently existing is the 1-3 commissars in a psykana formation.

Now the bit I realized this morning: the psykana formation currently does not work under RAW. The commissars are never given permission to join the wyrdvanes. The special rule alludes to them joining with an "if joined by a commissar". However it is great way to put commissars into your other battlegroup units. See the formation tells you to take the entry, the entry then gives access to itself for every command squad in your army; quid pro quo, the psykana lets you add 1-3 commissars to your army and then an additional 1 per command squad. All must be assigned to the specified units though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry scotsman, work got in the way of posting the above.

Second sentence of the second paragraph in the combined squads rule is(paraphrased with exact wording but cutting out some bits): "...then any infantry squad may join another infantry squad from the same platoon" it then goes on to detail 3 squads in an example as 1-30, or 1-10 and 1-20.

Now who's not reading what? I posted the whole "Psykanna doesn't work by RAW in my article.

Anyhow, I'm not personally sure how units that are purchased without taking up slots work. It would seem that a detachment should only include units / models that are contained within that detachment / formation.

In other words, while a Commissar may be taken for each command squad, they aren't part of the Cadian Battle Group detachment. Presuming you don't also purchase a CAD, then those Commissars would not belong to any detachment, thus you'd be playing "Unbound". Same deal for most of the "HQ's that don't take up a Slot" that AM can take, like Priests, Enginseers, and Primaris Psykers.

You're allowed to take them, but they aren't part of a Detachment. I think. As was pointed out, units in a CBG don't have "Battlefield Roles" [Such as Troops, Elite, Etc].

Taking the Commissar as an example...

In a CAD, you have a chart of Battlefield Roles that you can take. This makes a Battle-forged list, as every unit has a battlefield role. In the Commissar's case, he has the "HQ" battlefield role, but doesn't use up a slot and can't be the Warlord.

But in a CBG, he's not specified as part of the detachment. He's also not allowed as part of the extended Platoon Structure [ie: Special Weapon Squads] so if you took one, as allowed per the description of the Commissar, he would make your list Unbound, as you aren't filling the required Battlefield Roles that a CAD would require. In essence, you'd have an incomplete CAD on your hands.

You could take them as part of the Psykanna Division, which again, has RAW problems, but if you attached them to the legal list entries, at least you'd be battle-forged again.

This could all be moot with the arrival of the next codex, which may have different rules for how to take those units. Something like, "This unit can be taken as part of any formation, regardless of whether or not that formation specifies that this unit may be taken." Something like that.

Ether wrote:
The russ formation is weird. Without great access to ignores cover, you really want them kicking out lots of shots and not worrying so much about templates. This means that he's looking at an exterminator or punisher (or eradicator with bolter sponsons). The ramming thing might be handy if you can get close enough to the jinking chicanery that runs around these days. Even so, you're already ramming at s10 (7 + tank + heavy), so...?

This post got me thinking...

How about the following loadout for 875 points:

Tank commander with Kabe's Herald and buddy, both in vanquishers with lascannons

3 x exterminators with hull lascannons, heavy bolters and heavy stubbers

My thinking is that you can capitalise on (1) the superior ballistic skill that makes vanquishers and hull lascannons worth it again and (2) being able to order other tanks in the formation to split fire so that they don't waste shots.

Well, the 3 other Russ are already able to "split fire" by virtue of needing to be in different squadrons, so Kabe's is kind of wasted. The primary benefit would be getting first turn, and being able to fire and smoke with everyone... which is probably worth the points.

Without AP 3, most guns are bouncing off of MEQ saves, anyway. To me, Plasma Sponsons are a reasonable upgrade to an Exterminator with LC. You've got high enough strength to threaten the vehicles that an Exterminator wants to go after, high enough volume of fire vs hordes [assuming you can get several potential hits with the PC] and then you've still got bite against MEQ and better saves.

I think you need to take a variety of Russ, to ensure you are able to deal with a variety of targets.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, the 3 other Russ are already able to "split fire" by virtue of needing to be in different squadrons, so Kabe's is kind of wasted. The primary benefit would be getting first turn, and being able to fire and smoke with everyone... which is probably worth the points.

I was thinking that the split fire rule would enable the other tanks to fire individual weapons at different targets. E.g. they could fire their lascannons at vehicles and fire everything else at the infantry.

*In good humour*

That would be because you didn't read the rules. Split fire allows a "Model" to fire separately from his unit, not a gun from a model to fire separately to the rest.

It would help the Tank Commander's unit, but that would be it.

 greatbigtree wrote:
*In good humour*

That would be because you didn't read the rules. Split fire allows a "Model" to fire separately from his unit, not a gun from a model to fire separately to the rest.

It would help the Tank Commander's unit, but that would be it.

I don't have the brb to hand, so if that is how it is worded then fair enough. I was under the impression that it enabled the *unit* to fire a weapon at a different target, therefore if the "unit" was one vehicle with multiple weapons then it could fire one weapon at a different target.

Engineseer can give Power of the Machine Spirit to any vehicle he is nearby, you can use it to split fire from one tank.

For the points of fancy sponsors, i just get a 2nd tank.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For the points of fancy sponsors, i just get a 2nd tank.

Promote this guardsman to sergeant at once.

You're buying another Russ, for 40 points? Good for you! Hope your opponents don't notice...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For the points of fancy sponsors, i just get a 2nd tank.

You dropped what, seven sponsons?

Presumably, they're talking about adding Plasma Cannon sponsons to multiple Tanks. That adds up quickly.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Presumably, they're talking about adding Plasma Cannon sponsons to multiple Tanks. That adds up quickly.

5 sets of sponsons will buy one Stock Russ, without upgrades. Soooo.... 10 plasma cannon shots, vs 1x Battle Cannon. I know which one I'd take. Sponsons are so cheap, it's foolish to not take them.

[Quick edit to fix bad math. ]

Even the cheapest Russ costs 4 sets of Plasma Sponsons.

 Ustis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Or you could just look at the rules? Maybe write then down somewhere handy? Not as if they aren't everywhere...

I was referring to whether I would need to own the official published rules in the campaign book to use the formations in a game at my local games workshop/ tournament.

That would depend on your local shop / tournament? Lots of people just have stuff on phones and tablets and other new fangled nonsense.................