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.if you have those facilities which my town doesn't and I'm willing to bet most do not either...

And i'm willing to bet most 100 000+ habitants have all this stuff, but most people don't know about it. In my LFGS I think i'm the only one who knows about it.

But I understand people are reluctant to use something they do not own.

edit : my 8000 habitants hometown has 3 3dprinter ( school, cityhall, library ) but i don't know about their quality.

You always need supports and be it only for keeping the shape while printing. If you don´t see them then only because they have been removed. As soon as there is an overhang that is half as wide as the filament you need some support or your heated filament will deviate from the intended form. If you don´t put supports on walls an boxes they will cave in during printing and massive walls have their support structure within them.

Um... for 1000$ you will get a 4by4foot table full of buildings from 4Ground.

To have access to all machines of my fablab I must pay 15€/ year, that includes 3dprinter, laser cutter, thermoforming, cnc, etc...

And as soon as they find out that someone is using this stuff in bulk will charge you the real printing-material price.

And no, such facilities are very rare.

Um... for 1000$ you will get a 4by4foot table full of buildings from 4Ground.

Well the whole point of using the fablab's printer is you don't have to pay the machine.

So for 15e ( 1 year membership ) + 15e ( pledge for hamlet )+ 15e ( 1kg of plastic filament ) = 45e for a few buildings.

As for those structure, here is a map that shows how numerous they are in France. Its only shows independent Fablabs, not library, cityhall.etc ..

http://www.gotronic.fr/ins-carte-des-fablabs-50.htm

I assume it's about the same amounth in Europe/USA/Australia.

Well, but you have to calculate in the real price for the filament else you could leave the mdf/resin-price out of the price of the comparable stuff.

It is lucky that one can print ist as cheap as this, but it is not the norm and as soon as someone starts to print bulk they will have to recalculate their prices.

Well, but you have to calculate in the real price for the filament else you could leave the mdf/resin-price out of the price of the comparable stuff.

It is lucky that one can print ist as cheap as this, but it is not the norm and as soon as someone starts to print bulk they will have to recalculate their prices.

That's why I included the price of the material, 15e for 1kg of plastic filament.

Sorry if my english isn't correct, it feels like we have trouble understanding each other haha

edit: there is a fablab in Munich with a ultimakers and asimovs 3dprinters

 scarletsquig wrote:
Really like the idea of this, and being able to print out new terrain whenever I want.

After a look at the practical side though, the price/quality on 3d printers just isn't there yet, too much of a money investment, and too much of a time investment to get the parts cleaned up (lots and lots of filing off print lines).

For these you simply clean the models using acetone, no filing needed for a lot of it. He has a video on how to do this on his you tube chanel. I also linked it above.

overtyrant wrote:
Which is all good....if you have those facilities which my town doesn't and I'm willing to bet most do not either...

A lot of schools, universities and libraries have them. I know around here schools use them. But yes that is certainly no guarantee.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
You always need supports and be it only for keeping the shape while printing. If you don´t see them then only because they have been removed. As soon as there is an overhang that is half as wide as the filament you need some support or your heated filament will deviate from the intended form. If you don´t put supports on walls an boxes they will cave in during printing and massive walls have their support structure within them.

Um... for 1000$ you will get a 4by4foot table full of buildings from 4Ground.

Again, as the creators said, their designs are printable without supports because their overhangs are within the tolerances (which I assume means the sticky outy bits here and there dont need supports). If you think they are lying on the kickstarter tell them. Support structure within the walls? Yes, but they do not require clean up or preparation... because that is a wall yes?

In NZD no. In NZD a 3d printer is 999 dollars. That is 10 buildings roughly from 4 ground in NZD. Maybe in your country mdf buildings are super cheap without being terrible quality? If you play multiple games of differing time periods or scales then buying terrain also becomes incredibly more expensive than a 3d printer.

I am talking about 4Ground fantasy-buildings and US$. NZ extra-postage for transfer should be not included in this calculation.

You could buy a Folger Tech 3D printer that could print this terrain fine for about $279 but it does require you to assemble it. It can seem daunting at first, however it isn't as complicated a process once you start to get into it.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
All printers need support structures. Anyone telling you anything different does not know how printers work.

You might be misunderstanding what they mean by do not need support structures. All items printed do need support structures, however most people do not consider the support which separates the item from the base (usually only at the bottom) as support. Support tends to refer to the scaffolding structure used for overhangs or when angles are steeper than 45 degrees. Providing your overhang isn't steep or huge and you do not have a large bridge, you do not need structure support printed. The bottom support to separate the piece from the base is usually easily clipped.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I am talking about 4Ground fantasy-buildings and US$. NZ extra-postage for transfer should be not included in this calculation.

After looking on their website, it seems the buildings are not much more expensive than in NZ (excluding shipping).

http://www.4ground.co.uk/city-of-mordanburg/28mm-fabled-mordanburg-dockside-dwelling-2

33 pounds before shipping (74NZD)

On the NZ hobbies website:

https://www.mightyape.co.nz/product/Mordanburg-Dockland-Building-2/23063832

79.99NZD

Hardly much of a price increase, it's actually cheaper to buy it here in NZ than to buy it over seas.

Honestly, we have some of these buildings, they are amazing quality AND come prepainted etc but they are small too. You are paying ALOT more money for anything bigger than this average sized building.

I think people are over estimating the price of a 3d printer and 3d printing. Honestly if you are part of a club pooling in to get one of these would improve your local scenery a lot. The variety and amount you can print means all games can be catered for with ease. Of course, you could wait for the technology to be better too, but unless you are a 3d designer of sorts will still need files etc.

 Dark Severance wrote:
You could buy a Folger Tech 3D printer that could print this terrain fine for about $279 but it does require you to assemble it. It can seem daunting at first, however it isn't as complicated a process once you start to get into it.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
All printers need support structures. Anyone telling you anything different does not know how printers work.

You might be misunderstanding what they mean by do not need support structures. All items printed do need support structures, however most people do not consider the support which separates the item from the base (usually only at the bottom) as support. Support tends to refer to the scaffolding structure used for overhangs or when angles are steeper than 45 degrees. Providing your overhang isn't steep or huge and you do not have a large bridge, you do not need structure support printed. The bottom support to separate the piece from the base is usually easily clipped.

I don't know much about 3D printing but I know my neighbor has an ultimaker in his basement because his job involves 3D printing. Would the Ultimaker be able to make all the Winterdale buildings?

Would the Ultimaker be able to make all the Winterdale buildings?

Yes, the ultimaker is one of the best consumer level 3dprinter. It's the one i will use to print my buildings.

eflix29 wrote:

Would the Ultimaker be able to make all the Winterdale buildings?

Yes, the ultimaker is one of the best consumer level 3dprinter. It's the one i will use to print my buildings.

Awesome, thanks for the info.

Um, there is no printer out there that prints buildings of the 4Ground size cheaper than they cost bought from them.

I am quite aware of the prices of all kinds of printers and also the quality issues of the cheaper printers.

If you can do it cheaper than because someone else is swallowing the extra-cost, not because it is cheaper.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Um, there is no printer out there that prints buildings of the 4Ground size cheaper than they cost bought from them.

I am quite aware of the prices of all kinds of printers and also the quality issues of the cheaper printers.

If you can do it cheaper than because someone else is swallowing the extra-cost, not because it is cheaper.

Was just at his house, he has a table of 4 ground buildings all of which cost between 50-80 dollars each at least. The cost to print the castle on his table was about 40 dollars he said (NZ).

Anyway, you keep saying 3d printing is expensive etc. How much then would it cost to 3d print these designs on a 1000NZD printer? Because the 4ground table alone is approaching the price of a 3d printer in buildings alone.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Um, there is no printer out there that prints buildings of the 4Ground size cheaper than they cost bought from them.

If you can do it cheaper than because someone else is swallowing the extra-cost, not because it is cheaper.

In the long run it is a wash.

It is a matter of $$$ + longer period of time vs $$$ + shorter period of time. The laser cut buildings are cheaper to mass produce because the time in cutting and size when not assembled is hours. They have a higher cost in shipping because of their weight.

3D printed buildings are lighter and relatively the same cost. However the reason they aren't economical to mass produce them is because instead of hours, we're talking days to get the equivalent pieces.

The main thing that makes one method cheaper than the other or vice versa is the frequency and amount. If one person just wants to print off a table's worth, then it is cheaper to buy pre-manufactured buildings, then to get a 3d printer and do your own. Now if you are doing more than just one table, say a gaming club or you have a group of friends or even you want to do different genres (scifi and medievil), then you are looking at multiple tables worth of terrain. At that point it becomes cheaper to do the 3D printer route provided someone is already providing 3d work at the fraction of the cost.

It just depends on how much time, how much scenery you are doing, etc. They are roughly the same amount.

I decided to check is there are freely available printers to use here, and there are, price seems reasonable, definitely going to print a cottage just to see what things are like.

For 1000 US$ I can get approx. The big Inn, the Castle-Tower and 15 buildings of different sizes from 4Ground, which is a full table for e.g. Freebooters Fate if you chuck in some additional palm-trees.

Depending on how big his castle is he will need several spools and a spool of at least medium quality will set you back at least 25$. If we are talking about the big castle from the video it is at least 4-5 spools and a week of printing non-stop on a 2000$ printer. And you will need replacement parts over time.
Never ever this will bei 40$ cheap not even NZ.

If you calculate everything in laser-cutting is way cheaper than 3d-printing. And there is a reason all companies in this business only use printers for masters and proofs.

For 1000 US$ I can get approx....

Why do you keep including the price of the printer ?
If I follow your logic then you also need to pay for the plane that will deliver the lasercut building, and I think a billion dollard for a few lasercut scenery is a bit expensive.

Also it would sound like trolling.

Cause you need a printer to get that stuff printed?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Cause you need a printer to get that stuff printed?

People have pointed out places that are either free or could have printers available to use. Now that may not be available to you, at your location and the other method which you are using is more viable. However there are other people who do have other options available, mileage will vary depending on person and location. You would be surprised how much you can print on a spool.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Cause you need a printer to get that stuff printed?

People have pointed out places that are either free or could have printers available to use. Now that may not be available to you, at your location and the other method which you are using is more viable. However there are other people who do have other options available, mileage will vary depending on person and location. You would be surprised how much you can print on a spool.

So what we've established is this project is a good idea to back if:

1. You're lucky enough to have a "fablab" or similar place in your area which also permits people to come in and take over one of their printers for the several weeks it will take to print out a full table's worth of terrain(we have a makerspace in my city, there was a two month waiting list to get sufficient time on the printers to make a small custom grip part for a joystick mod project, the idea I could just walk in and commandeer a printer to make a terrain table is hilarious).
2. If you're part of a club that's big enough to make the cost of buying a printer, the files, and materials negligible to individual members, but not large enough to set themselves up with a trade discount on premade terrain which would make it cheaper again.
3. You already own a 3D printer of sufficient quality.

I think the criticism stands solid in the face of those exceptions: most people do not fall into those. Most people are looking at buying the whole setup to print these files up-front, and that's simply not viable yet for normal people.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Dark Severance wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Cause you need a printer to get that stuff printed?

People have pointed out places that are either free or could have printers available to use. Now that may not be available to you, at your location and the other method which you are using is more viable. However there are other people who do have other options available, mileage will vary depending on person and location. You would be surprised how much you can print on a spool.

So what we've established is this project is a good idea to back if:

1. You're lucky enough to have a "fablab" or similar place in your area which also permits people to come in and take over one of their printers for the several weeks it will take to print out a full table's worth of terrain(we have a makerspace in my city, there was a two month waiting list to get sufficient time on the printers to make a small custom grip part for a joystick mod project, the idea I could just walk in and commandeer a printer to make a terrain table is hilarious).
2. If you're part of a club that's big enough to make the cost of buying a printer, the files, and materials negligible to individual members, but not large enough to set themselves up with a trade discount on premade terrain which would make it cheaper again.
3. You already own a 3D printer of sufficient quality.

I think the criticism stands solid in the face of those exceptions: most people do not fall into those. Most people are looking at buying the whole setup to print these files up-front, and that's simply not viable yet for normal people.

All of which is really obvious. It's clear this kick starter is aimed at people who are into 3d printing etc.

But to counter the criticism it's not nearly as hard/bad as people are making it out to be.

It does not take a genius to figure out that most people cannot make use of this, but it's not a huge under taking to print and have fun with 3d printed terrain either. Especially the more you print etc. Is it really "criticism" that a kickstarter for 3D designs does not cater to those who cannot use the 3d designs? No, as stated before that's just pointing out the obvious.

 Yodhrin wrote:
most people do not fall into those. Most people are looking at buying the whole setup to print these files up-front, and that's simply not viable yet for normal people.

It isn't as bad as people make it to be. I posted a link to a $269 printer that will do it just fine to the quality that would be table top acceptable. Most people in this hobby industry easily spend $269 in less than 1-2 months easily (especially if we went off using the DCM 2015 expenditure tracker post)... I mean Forward Base terrain was easily $500+ for me.

That is the whole idea of the hobby industry. It is a very large mix of people. Some people like to paint miniatures and a lot of people don't. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be posting about things that only involve painting or not painting miniatures. If it isn't for you.. great. If it is.. great. Beyond saying the piece and agreeing to disagree, there is no right or wrong answer.

There is also nothing wrong with targeting a specific market group, even if it is only 20%... although I'd bet it is much larger than that, but I'm simply basing it from a 80/20 rule.

But it is wrong to claim that one can do it cheaper than regular stuff, when there are a lot of ifs connected to that cheaper price.

If you calculate time, replacement parts (and you will need lots with the printers below 2000, that is if you can get any), material needed in it is still way more expensive.

And we have quite some printers around, but either the waiting lists are very long or you will get charged per spool used up. Cause we had quite some poeple that thought they could freeload upon librariers etc.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
But it is wrong to claim that one can do it cheaper than regular stuff, when there are a lot of ifs connected to that cheaper price.

If you calculate time, replacement parts (and you will need lots with the printers below 2000, that is if you can get any), material needed in it is still way more expensive.

It isn't wrong if it is true, there are people that can do it cheaper. Your mileage will definitely vary dependent on the person though. Obviously those with printers have it a bit cheaper or those with free access from schools/libraries compared to someone starting without. Again it really depends on the end goal. If the end goal is just one tables worth of $1000 of terrain and that is it, they are done. Then probably best to just stick to MDF/Resin terrain.

Now if someone is creating multiple tables or different settings and scenes, wants to design, print out various terrain to a custom RPG, or create alternating layouts then it can end up being cheaper. Now granted it takes a bit more time. We didn't calculate time because at the end of the day it is free. If I ordered from 4Ground, I'd have to wait a little over a week to get terrain here from shipping but I can run a printer overnight without issues. At the end the time washes out, providing I have proper 3d designs.

There are quite a few people who have lower cost 3D printers, they are hobby kits, and have used them fairly constantly for the past 2-4 years without replacement parts. I think you might be over estimating costs a bit. I've been using them to print custom sized pieces for Cosplay for years from gauntlets, blaster pieces (mostly Mandalorian things). It honestly depends on the design. If the 3D design is a solid wall for thick walls, then it uses wasted material, however there are ways to not waste as much through a proper design.


Left over scrap, mis-prints, etc. It looks like a lot of wasted plastic but it is less than a $1 worth, closer to $0.75. We haven't built one yet, but there are units for about $200 that lets us melt the scrap down to create a new spool. It is how they spools get created, they melt down plastic pellets which extrudes filament like this.


This was an earlier test with creating designs not requiring support, on a lower resolution print setting.


This was a building test. Utilizing a honeycomb design for strength and stability while not wasting plastic with making solid pieces.


It did take 24 hours to print. It did not use a full spool, even half of the $12.99 spool. It all comes down to printer, design and probably location having a factor. I can print about 10 similar things before needing to switch out the spool, if I was just printing buildings. It just depends on how it was done.

Sorry, but the is something called overall cost and for the majority only this cost decides. And even the ones with printers have those costs, they just do not choose to include it in their calculation.

In a fair comparison printed terrain will be more expensive than laser-cut terrain. Printing is interesting for very limited runs, but not for larger numbers. And considering the detail-level TT needs you need a certain quaöity level that needs replacement parts more often than with stuff printed for a 6ft person. And the pellets used for spools are different from the reused plastic, the quality is not the same, which can cause problems with the extruder over time.

The cup is nice, but to be honest the design caters to filament-printers and it has been cleaned up.

And time is not free either, it costs you energy and replacement parts at least.

Btw. there seem to be some printing glitches in the last picture.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Sorry, but the is something called overall cost and for the majority only this cost decides. And even the ones with printers have those costs, they just do not choose to include it in their calculation.

In a fair comparison printed terrain will be more expensive than laser-cut terrain.

And time is not free either, it costs you energy and replacement parts at least.

Overall cost is very similar (and gets cheaper for the 3d printer the more you use it). The only difference here is initial cost of the printer. Another thing to consider is the 3d printing is not limited to terrain meaning if you use it to print a multitude of goods you are actually paying even less for simply terrain.

Do you use a printer frequently or currently own one? Im curious because what you say is very opposite to what the people with 3d printers are saying around here.

For NZ it might be cheaper (location and transport cost for other options), but in Europe it is way cheaper to get the laser-cut stuff.

We use printers, but not in-house, since the printing quality we need cna only be delievered by printers in the 6-7 digit range. But we do know the limitations and advantages of the cheaper printers.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
For NZ it might be cheaper (location and transport cost for other options), but in Europe it is way cheaper to get the laser-cut stuff.

We use printers, but not in-house, since the printing quality we need cna only be delievered by printers in the 6-7 digit range. But we do know the limitations and advantages of the cheaper printers.

Must be difference in currency/location then.

Again then, it goes back to each persons situation. Which the same could be said of most items.

Not that the back and forth between Swastakowey and Duncan isn't fun to watch, but I wanted to chime in with some real world feedback on printing game terrain at home.

I'm a a civil engineer by trade and have been teaching myself 3D modeling over the last few years and had been using Shapeways to print out some things from time to time. I purchased a 3D printer of my own (a Printrbot Simple Metal) about 4 months ago. I didn't have a specific purpose but was puttering around learning the ins and outs of design as well as printing. I'd managed to reverse engineer Mantic's deadzone dimensions and have been printing out some parts I really wanted that weren't available (1/4 panels, realistic looking stairs, walkway bracin and better hand rails. Then along came the Dragonlok Kickstarter. These are the first STL files I've paid for and the files released so far have been outstanding. The dragonlock and Winterdale campaigns aren't exactly the same, but they both provide stl files for your own use so there's enough overlap that I think a lot of the stuff I'm going to type still apply

Home 3D printers absolutely, positively can print tabetop quality terrain that most folks would be proud to plunk down next to just about any MDF kit you can get. However I'm going to load that up with a bunch of caveats. To be clear, I'm talking about mid range ($400 - $1,000) plastic extrusion printers (Makerbot style printers). Without getting too technical, these are printers that heat up plastic from a spool and feed it through a print head as the head moves or the bed moves under it, building up a print in layers.

1. These printers are better at some things than other things. They are much better at hard shaped, angular terrain (Necromunda, Deadzone) than they are at organic shapes (wood, brickwork, stone). They can certainly do organic shapes, but you need to make a trade off in longer print times.

2. With the trade off in speed for quality, you really need your own printer. Don't fool yourself about using a printer at a library or a makerspace. If the STL files for Winterdale are similar to the Dragonlock files, your looking at multi-hour print times to get decent quality. Each dragonlock piece takes between 1.5 hours or the simplest part (flat floor tiles) to 4 hours for the biggest part (a corner wall). Just to get a one foot square worth of tiles took about 14 hours of print time. That's not a big deal if you own the printer, because once you've figured out what your doing you can set the print to run overnight and wake up to finished parts. But if you're trying to borrow or rent time on someone else's machine, your'e most likely going to be disappointed. Same goes for a 3rd party printing service like shapeways.

3. There is a substantial learning curve to owning your own printer. You need to learn the ins and outs of what the machine is capable of, how to manage a slicer program, how to fix and maintain the machine etc. Home 3D printing is a huge exercise in learning by doing. Help forums and youtube videos help but they won't help solve everything. I've had a ton of fun with my printer, but probably spent 8 hours and burned through a half kilo ($15) worth of plastic before I felt I really knew what I was doing.

4. Cost is another big consideration. You've got the price of the printer itself and then consumables (not just plastic, but tape, alcohol pads, replacement parts etc). I've printed enough dragonlock pieces to come up with some reasonable estimates. I can print an equivalent set of parts to the Dwaven Forge basic dungeon set for just about 780 grams of plastic (approximately $23). It works out to half the price per set by that analysis, but if you work in the price of the printer (assuming you didn't print anything else) you'd have to print 28 sets (20 square feet!) before you'd make back the price of the printer. That doesn't factor in the time it takes to running the printer itself. It takes time to set up a print, swap out parts between prints and basic maintenance. Plus there's probably hidden costs like the power to run the machine.

3D printers are cool and can help you create some really cool things, but you'll have to pay your dues in terms of cash and time before you can really take advantage of it My advice, is if you just want terrain, buy it from a commercial source. If you don't intend to learn 3D modeling or don't enjoy a technical challenge, stay away from 3D printers until companies can make them more foolproof.

As to the Winterdale Kickstarter itself, I'm still on the fence. I like the hamlet models, but the stone work on the tower and citadel seems crudely done. It's a big step up from free files you can find on places like Thingaverse but not not quite as polished as I'd expect for $75.