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@sock - oh, I wasn't deriding Vallejo at all. It's a great range. I just mean that there are a lot of duplicate and almost-identical colors -- as in, if you bought every single Vallejo paint, you'd have some paints that were *exactly* the same (like the Game Color extra thick being the same as model color, just with a different label), and a few that were so close that no human could tell them apart. But they have some wonderful colors that no other company has. Also, I'm very fond of their new metallic airbrush paints, and Vallejo Game and Model air in general.

@Ghaz - I'm thinking Burgandy Wine (dark red) and Nightshade Purple (dark purple) from Reaper. They're just a nice intermediate between colors like Mephiston and Nagarroth and black -- very helpful if you want red-tinted black cloaks, for instance. It's not a deal breaker, just a wishlist


@Goblinzz - If you like dropper bottles, I think GW (and PP) are a waste of time. It's just too much effort to transplant them on a regular basis, though the airbrush paints aren't too bad (because they're a lot thinner). There are some of us, though, that prefer pots to droppers, and all pots require regular maintenance (ie cleaning them) in order to shut them properly.

I actually take many of my Vallejo paints that I use a lot and transplant them into old GW pots (from washes or lahmian medium). I just find it easier to get a tiny bit of paint out of a pot than out of a dropper, without taking more than I need.

 Talys wrote:
@sock - oh, I wasn't deriding Vallejo at all. It's a great range. I just mean that there are a lot of duplicate and almost-identical colors -- as in, if you bought every single Vallejo paint, you'd have some paints that were *exactly* the same (like the Game Color extra thick being the same as model color, just with a different label), and a few that were so close that no human could tell them apart. But they have some wonderful colors that no other company has. Also, I'm very fond of their new metallic airbrush paints, and Vallejo Game and Model air in general.

Oh, no, absolutely. You are nothing if not an even handed poster and VMC does have waaaay too many drab greens, browns and greys, but comments like yours get made pretty frequently (however tongue in cheek) and I sometimes feel that casual observers don't pick up on the fact that VMC offers more than that. So in I step, unbidden, to redress the balance (probably entirely unnecessarily).

 Talys wrote:
@sock - oh, I wasn't deriding Vallejo at all. It's a great range. I just mean that there are a lot of duplicate and almost-identical colors -- as in, if you bought every single Vallejo paint, you'd have some paints that were *exactly* the same (like the Game Color extra thick being the same as model color, just with a different label), and a few that were so close that no human could tell them apart

As noted, these are for the serious military modeler (aka, the "rivet counter"). For example, I paint my British Shermans a 50/50 mix of VMC Russian Uniform and VMC Russian Green to get that proper shade based on reccomendations from a gentleman named Mike Starmer (who has written well-researched books on the subject) on the Flames of War forums. For the rivet counter, using the wrong shade of green is akin to a painter painting Marneus Calgar green and entering him in the Golden Daemon competition. The model may look good, but its just not "right" in their eyes.

The quality is great. But I'm not paying more than everybody else for less paint; 12ml is a joke when everyone else offers like 16 at least and typically 18-20.

If their paints were dropper bottles like Vallejo/Army Painter, or hell even the old flip tops like P3 is today (FW paints are this style too) I would likely only use Citadel paints. At 12ml for $4 though, there's no way seeing how every other company that sells paints gives you at least 50% more paint for the same price (often less when you factor in discounts). The paints themselves are excellent, but I don't want to feel ripped off.

I really hope they go back to the old flip top bottles, since FW has started using it. I would pay like $5.50ish for 20ml of high quality paint; it's more expensive than the equivalent, but not so much that you feel that you're getting cheated or treated like a braindead sucker who will see the logo and have to scoop it up.

Used to love Citadel Paints ..Now a days its Vallejo, Army Painter and Coat d'Arms (the original Citadel paint) I even use some Tamyia Sprays since I can get them locally

WayneTheGame wrote:
If their paints were dropper bottles like Vallejo/Army Painter, or hell even the old flip tops like P3 is today (FW paints are this style too) I would likely only use Citadel paints. At 12ml for $4 though, there's no way seeing how every other company that sells paints gives you at least 50% more paint for the same price (often less when you factor in discounts). The paints themselves are excellent, but I don't want to feel ripped off.

I really hope they go back to the old flip top bottles, since FW has started using it. I would pay like $5.50ish for 20ml of high quality paint; it's more expensive than the equivalent, but not so much that you feel that you're getting cheated or treated like a braindead sucker who will see the logo and have to scoop it up.

GOD, I wish that were the case here. I pay $5 for Vallejo here, and a much smaller discount (usually 10%, versus 30% for GW). If I could get Vallejo paint at effectively 50% less than GW paint, I'd probably use a lot more of it, too. As it is, I think it's slightly more expensive per ml.

Those FW/P3/Classic Citadel white flip tops by the way... the hinges break a lot. And they're almost as annoying to clean as GW pots :(

I use Vallejo MC/GC and Citadel interchangeably, depending on which ones have the most appropriate colors. Vallejo tends to lack a bit in the bright primary colors spectrum and focus on the drab military colors, in my experience.

One thing I can say though is that I've never been disappointed with a Citadel paint, whereas I've had multiple bottles of Vallejo that are either constantly separated and/or have very poor coverage.

I'm a bit ambivalent in pots vs droppers... I tend to waste less paint getting it on to the model using pots, but the pots tend to dry out a little faster. On the other hand, with proper care I still have a few of the Citadel screw-top hex pots that are going strong, so YMMV.

Talys wrote:@sock - oh, I wasn't deriding Vallejo at all. It's a great range. I just mean that there are a lot of duplicate and almost-identical colors -- as in, if you bought every single Vallejo paint, you'd have some paints that were *exactly* the same (like the Game Color extra thick being the same as model color, just with a different label), and a few that were so close that no human could tell them apart. But they have some wonderful colors that no other company has. Also, I'm very fond of their new metallic airbrush paints, and Vallejo Game and Model air in general.

It's only a problem if you don't realise that the different Vallejo ranges are exactly that, different ranges. While some stores carry all of them, there are many stores that will only carry VMC, or only carry VCG, or only carry VMA. Where as if you carry P3 or Citadel, you tend to carry the entire P3 or Citadel line up. Because of that, each Vallejo range needs to be self sufficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@sock - oh, I wasn't deriding Vallejo at all. It's a great range. I just mean that there are a lot of duplicate and almost-identical colors -- as in, if you bought every single Vallejo paint, you'd have some paints that were *exactly* the same (like the Game Color extra thick being the same as model color, just with a different label), and a few that were so close that no human could tell them apart

As noted, these are for the serious military modeler (aka, the "rivet counter"). For example, I paint my British Shermans a 50/50 mix of VMC Russian Uniform and VMC Russian Green to get that proper shade based on reccomendations from a gentleman named Mike Starmer (who has written well-researched books on the subject) on the Flames of War forums. For the rivet counter, using the wrong shade of green is akin to a painter painting Marneus Calgar green and entering him in the Golden Daemon competition. The model may look good, but its just not "right" in their eyes.

I've mostly given up on Vallejo for my rivet counting needs because they more often than not are the furthest from being accurate. There's usually a range over which each colour can be (accounting for slight variations in the mix from the factory, different application methods, fading in the field, etc) but for most things I've painted Vallejo tends to be outside the window of all the other paint manufacturers and for things we have colour swatches for they're often furthest from the mark.

It may not sound like a big deal to fantasy/sci fi gamers, but when you paint an aircraft and it doesn't look like any real world examples of the same aircraft because the colours were off it fails to capture the spirit of vehicle for me.

There's a lot of argument over which paint ranges are the most accurate and for specific colours there'll different manufacturers recommended.... but for the most part I've found I can pull a Testors off the shelf and just use it and it won't look bad. Vallejo I can't, I have to research it first to make sure it's not miles off, which it usually is.

Like the paints, hate the pots... it's a difficult dilemma. Though to be honest, prices have gotten just crazy enough to be a deterrent.

I can't really understand the price thing to be honest. Most colors you buy once, and they last for many years. In those cases, the price/ml doesn't matter, only the price per pot, where the difference is very small. For those few colors that you do buy repeatedly, I'm sure the price difference doesn't amount to much. So to me, the price of paints isn't really that important, only whether I like the paint or not.

I don't get how it doesn't make sense, really.

I can buy x amount of paint pots for $100 that will last me y amount of time, or I can buy the same amount of paint pots for $150 that will last the same (or less) amount of time.

Except Citadel paints aren't 50% more expensive than say Vallejo, they're about 16% more expensive (per pot), at least here in Europe. And like I said, most paint pots you will probably never buy more than once. So instead of

kb_lock wrote:
I don't get how it doesn't make sense, really.

I can buy x amount of paint pots for $100 that will last me y amount of time, or I can buy the same amount of paint pots for $150 that will last the same (or less) amount of time.

What is actually happening is that you can buy x amount of paint pots for $100 that will last y amount of time, or you can buy the same amount of paint pots for $116, where most of them will last the same amount of time (because you will never finish them), and the few that you do go through quickly won't amount to much money-wise. To me that small amount of money seems pretty insignificant compared to the colors themselves, no matter which you prefer.

That is assuming that I don't buy paints more than once though. I mean, sure, if I had no paints and wanted to stock up, most of those paints will never get finished - but I will need Screamer Pink at least a few times for faces, so I need it. But now that I have all my paints, I will go through 3 or 4 pots every month or two, and need to restock them.

Additionally, Citadel to Vallejo is 53% from thecombatcompany.com, which is a local, well priced distro. While I did pull the 50% figure out of thin air, I am not overly surprised that I was right.

I'm sure I've wasted more than a few pennies on GW's shockingly bad pots drying out the paint and having to buy colours again. It especially hits the pocket when for one reason or another you are out of the hobby for a year or two and come back to find most your paints are gone. It's a double whammy, getting hit with your paints drying out AND the fact they cost more per pot and per ml.

Obviously the most important thing is whether they have the paint you want and the quality is there. But the quality is quite similar and the actual ranges themselves are so expansive that you can almost always find the colour you need unless you're locked in to a specific pot because that's what you've used on the rest of your army....

....so it comes down to price and pots. GW pots are terrible and their prices are some of the worst (if not the worst) both in price per pot and price per ml. Sure, it's not the MOST important thing.... but the more important things are mostly equivalent.

If GW paints are really 50% more expensive in Australia then I wouldn't buy them either, that's insane. Like I said, here they're pretty much the same.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Tjomball wrote:
Bonus tip..
For us painters that want faster drying paints..
Vodka.. I always have a little bottle in my paint kit..

Have you tried using isopropyl alcohol instead of vodka? Unless your country has no tax on booze, isopropyl is a lot cheaper. It's a lot stronger than vodka so you might have to dilute it down a bit.

And when you're mixing it into the paints too...

I'm curious why it says they are unsuitable for hand application O.O eg brush... It's just like any thinned paint like Golden Acrylics and the like

I like the citadel paints a lot. I like most of the range with a few exceptions with some of their metallic paint where I can never seem to get it mixed right because they separate so much and the colour comes out all wrong but I think that may just be a few odd ball pots.

I wish they came in dropper bottles and I wish that they were a cheaper price.
I'd like to switch to Vallejo which I have a few of but I have painted so much of my armies with it and if I switched now I feel I wouldn't get the colours to match up right.

I was thinking of just buying some dropper bottles on eBay and transferring all my paints to those but I'm not sure how I would go about transferring them from the pots to the bottles without wasting a lot of the paint (which I don't want to do cause of the high cost!)

Metal funnels and flo-aide can make wastage during transfer pretty minimal

The citadel range is good. Never had an issue. The colour range is vast, the paints all seem good enough quality for me to paint with. They are fine if you thin them as with any paint. The pots are also fine, the collection in the lid is useful, and no, they don't dry out. I still have a 6 year old pot of Sunburst Yellow and 4 year old blood red that are still in perfect working order. They are as good as you want to make them.

Having just got back into painting I have been looking at what paints to use, dredged up the old school GW paints from the loft and it seems I have got 3 generations of different paint from GW some from the 90s which I think turned into P3? then the ones with the screw tops and now the new flip top paint drying pots. :-)

I like them, have recently got some Vallejo to see how that compares and so far I am liking those too. Their metallic seem better pigment level wise.

Anyone else having problems with Mephiston Red? I can't dilute it without using a wet palette, it's too thick.

 Matthew wrote:
Anyone else having problems with Mephiston Red? I can't dilute it without using a wet palette, it's too thick.

I use it all the time with a wet palette and never had a problem, don't see why you couldn't use it without one... Just add more water?

To put it simply:

+ Great choice of colors
= Decent performance
- Too expensive for the quantity in a single pot.

I still have loads of Citadel paints but I probably will not be buying anymore.

I will stick with Minitaire, Vallejo and P3.

Mymearan wrote:I can't really understand the price thing to be honest. Most colors you buy once, and they last for many years. In those cases, the price/ml doesn't matter, only the price per pot, where the difference is very small. For those few colors that you do buy repeatedly, I'm sure the price difference doesn't amount to much. So to me, the price of paints isn't really that important, only whether I like the paint or not.

Even without the difference of price/ml the other brands are cheaper with a similar to better result when painted, so there is no reason to buy any GW paint... unless you totally WANT that one colour.

Erik_Morkai wrote:To put it simply:

+ Great choice of colors
= Decent performance
- Too expensive for the quantity in a single pot.

I still have loads of Citadel paints but I probably will not be buying anymore.

I will stick with Minitaire, Vallejo and P3.

I've totally the same opinion as you but i would add:
- that stuff gets lumpy / gooey / unhomogeneous after about one year! And you can't get it back to it's original state despite bearing balls, added lahmian medium and heavy stirring with a dremel + stirring tool.

My Vallejo paints are still like new after few years in use

 Tristan228 wrote:

Mymearan wrote:I can't really understand the price thing to be honest. Most colors you buy once, and they last for many years. In those cases, the price/ml doesn't matter, only the price per pot, where the difference is very small. For those few colors that you do buy repeatedly, I'm sure the price difference doesn't amount to much. So to me, the price of paints isn't really that important, only whether I like the paint or not.

Even without the difference of price/ml the other brands are cheaper with a similar to better result when painted, so there is no reason to buy any GW paint... unless you totally WANT that one colour.

Erik_Morkai wrote:To put it simply:

+ Great choice of colors
= Decent performance
- Too expensive for the quantity in a single pot.

I still have loads of Citadel paints but I probably will not be buying anymore.

I will stick with Minitaire, Vallejo and P3.

I've totally the same opinion as you but i would add:
- that stuff gets lumpy / gooey / unhomogeneous after about one year! And you can't get it back to it's original state despite bearing balls, added lahmian medium and heavy stirring with a dremel + stirring tool.

My Vallejo paints are still like new after few years in use

I contest this. See my early post about having 8 year old paints that are still good to go. I'm talking black flip lids. The only thing I've had go dry on me was a paint I left open for 3 days (and added water and could work with it) and recently some Liquid Green Stuff I haven't touched in about 16 months.

The only Citadel paints that have ever dried out for me are the ones with practically nothing left in the pot that are ready to toss anyhow, and the last generation flip-tops (the ones without the tab in the back) that had dry compound. That doesn't include the couple I went to bed without shutting the cap

The only Vallejo paints I have problems with drying out are the last-generation (not the ones in the new big, fat pots) metallic airbrush golds/bronzes/coppers, half of which are too thick most of the time, and difficult to thin nicely. Who knows what will happen to the new ones; but there's only a couple of non-silvers anyhow.

It's important on pots as well as small- and large-size droppers to clean the containers regularly. The dropper containers ARE easier to clean.

Paint drying out just isn't an issue for me.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Tristan228 wrote:

Mymearan wrote:I can't really understand the price thing to be honest. Most colors you buy once, and they last for many years. In those cases, the price/ml doesn't matter, only the price per pot, where the difference is very small. For those few colors that you do buy repeatedly, I'm sure the price difference doesn't amount to much. So to me, the price of paints isn't really that important, only whether I like the paint or not.

Even without the difference of price/ml the other brands are cheaper with a similar to better result when painted, so there is no reason to buy any GW paint... unless you totally WANT that one colour.

Erik_Morkai wrote:To put it simply:

+ Great choice of colors
= Decent performance
- Too expensive for the quantity in a single pot.

I still have loads of Citadel paints but I probably will not be buying anymore.

I will stick with Minitaire, Vallejo and P3.

I've totally the same opinion as you but i would add:
- that stuff gets lumpy / gooey / unhomogeneous after about one year! And you can't get it back to it's original state despite bearing balls, added lahmian medium and heavy stirring with a dremel + stirring tool.

My Vallejo paints are still like new after few years in use

I contest this. See my early post about having 8 year old paints that are still good to go. I'm talking black flip lids. The only thing I've had go dry on me was a paint I left open for 3 days (and added water and could work with it) and recently some Liquid Green Stuff I haven't touched in about 16 months.

The black flip lids from 8 years ago are not the current range, which is what the OP was trying to get opinions on and what most people have commented on since. It's awesome if those are still alive and kicking, but it's not massively relevant since they aren't currently widely available for purchase and certainly does nothing to mitigate posters' experience of the current paints drying out quickly.

The new ones don't really dry out unless you never clean the lids, with one or two exceptions (Ceramite White). At least mine haven't in 2,5 years.

I use to only use GW paint mostly as it was kind of what i got started with but with watching some other painter I have gone over to Vallejo. Not because GW paints are really "bad" But I hate the paint pots, the paints dry out so much faster unless you really take time to seal them up. I would rather have the droppers as it saves paint, they keep longer. (left some with my Vallejo paint and my gw paint stored for about 3 years my gw paint is now ruined but my Vallejo paint is as good as new) and the amount of paint you get with Vallejo is much greater and it even cost less.

Now I will still buy some of the GW paints but if their is another option I will take it.

----Update

Reading the thread it seem the lids have been updated so they might now dry as fast but they still have less paint than Vallejo for the price. I would say use some from both ranges Game Color is the closest match to GW paint and Model color is a bit more realist.

I would like to add that GW seems to always be changing their paint range while Vallejo seems to be a bit more consistent. So you don't walk into your game shop looking for a paint like "red gore" only to find that it no longer exists and you have to then find what they replaced it with. While it is a small problem it can be a bit annoying.

But Paint is paint. in some cases at least for basing I have found that Folk Art from walmart is also great. Think yes but use some water to thin it out and it will work great for baseing.
There is no one way to do paint like the old saying goes. If it's stupid but it works it not stupid