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Honestly, i hear a lot of whining for something so vague and undetailed.
Couple key points to remember, if the sky is falling.

1.) This isn't the end of online stores. This is the end of stores that do not directly support the hobby. Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby. This is the end to Amazon selling $20 X-wing ships for $11.09. No sensible defense for that kind of pricing.

2.) You will still be able to purchase online, just not from insane discounters. Your FLGS most likely will have a online store, and will gladly accept online orders.

3.) Don't be a chicken little.

 warboss wrote:
hose moves are designed to increase their own profits and control over their products, not to benefit FLGS except as a potential side effect (and of course at the definite detriment of any FLGS that sells online as well).

I had a discussion with a store/gaming pub owner over the cost of carrying FFG's LCGs, and he confided that despite being relatively popular (he himself is a huge tournament player), they are one of the things he hates ordering the most. A single data pack overstocked for Netrunner will eat the profits for that release.

This seems to align with the purpose stated by C. Petersen. I am more than willing to pay 3-7$ over what some obscure site may offer if it is to encourage the local scene.

Neronoxx wrote:
. Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby.

Of course it does. Giving someone access to something they can't get locally is supporting their hobby.

Besides which, as I mentioned earlier, the 'support for the hobby' argument is invalid the moment that you have physical stores that don't provide that 'support' either. There are plenty of stores selling gaming-related product that don't offer gaming space, or have staff who know next to nothing about the product. So if you're going to insist that stores provide product support in order to stock a product, suppliers are going to have to be an awful lot more choosy than just asking 'Do you sell online?'

And that's not taking into account the fact that a lot of us don't need that 'support' from the store. The sole extent of my interaction with a gaming store is that I give them money, and they give me product. I couldn't care less if the staff can teach me to wetblend or not, nor could any of the people I regularly game with.


The 'support for the community' argument is nonsense. It's a platitude that doesn't actually make any sense when you stop and look at it.

 insaniak wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
TIL I'm a parasite because I live in the country and don't have a brick and mortar store to support.

No, you're not the parasite. That would be silly.

It's the online stores that you buy from that are parasites, because they're taking your money but contributing nothing to your gaming community.

Because apparently giving people access to stuff that they otherwise wouldn't have access to doesn't count...

Did FFG just announced that they somehow managed to shut down the US postal service?

Online discounters did not "give access" to anyone, they provided a cheaper option of purchase, which hurt store retailers because of draconian distribution practices.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Online discounters did not "give access" to anyone

Except those of us with no LGS.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Did FFG just announced that they somehow managed to shut down the US postal service?

Online discounters did not "give access" to anyone, they provided a cheaper option of purchase, which hurt store retailers because of draconian distribution practices.

Except they're not just shutting down online discounters, they're shutting down online sales for everybody who doesn't satisfy certain criteria.


Note that the post you were responding to made no mention of discounters at all.

 Alex C wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Online discounters did not "give access" to anyone

Except those of us with no LGS.

Except that no. You can buy direct from FFG, or from a store that had a shipping option.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Except that no. You can buy direct from FFG, or from a store that had a shipping option.

And that's the key.

This isn't about 'supporting the community'... it's about funneling online sales directly to FFG or their select partners.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Online discounters did not "give access" to anyone

Except those of us with no LGS.

Except that no. You can buy direct from FFG, or from a store that had a shipping option.

Sorry, Insaniak was talkng about online outlets in general, I missed that you had specified discounters.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Except that no. You can buy direct from FFG, or from a store that had a shipping option.

And that's the key.

This isn't about 'supporting the community'... it's about funneling online sales directly to FFG or their select partners.

But it will end up supporting the community, which is a keyer key than your key.

Although I'm just now noticing the "mail order" prohibition, and I wonder if that's going to affect all stores also. That would seem strange.

 BrookM wrote:
First they cancel almost all of their 40K RPG lines and now this.. Oh FFG, you're really hard at work on getting disliked aren't you?

Kinda late to the party, aren't you? I stopped backing FFG when they fethed up BattleLore 1E.

As long as Im still able to buy my X-Wing and Armada at 30% off or so, preferably from MM, I dont really care about any of this.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
But it will end up supporting the community, which is a keyer key than your key.

Maybe you and I just have different interpretations of the word 'supporting'... Because to my mind, giving people fewer places from which to purchase your product, and giving stores fewer options for how they can choose to sell your product wouldn't really seem to fit the bill.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kinda late to the party, aren't you? I stopped backing FFG when they fethed up BattleLore 1E.

That wasn't FFG's fault though. Days of Wonder fethed that up long before FFG ever came into the picture. It was criminal, DoW's handling of that game. Pretty much on par with Battlefront/Dust Tactics, but with slightly less fraud.

chaos0xomega wrote:
As long as Im still able to buy my X-Wing and Armada at 30% off or so, preferably from MM, I dont really care about any of this.

You probably are out of luck buddy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
. Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby.

Of course it does. Giving someone access to something they can't get locally is supporting their hobby.

Besides which, as I mentioned earlier, the 'support for the hobby' argument is invalid the moment that you have physical stores that don't provide that 'support' either. There are plenty of stores selling gaming-related product that don't offer gaming space, or have staff who know next to nothing about the product. So if you're going to insist that stores provide product support in order to stock a product, suppliers are going to have to be an awful lot more choosy than just asking 'Do you sell online?'

And that's not taking into account the fact that a lot of us don't need that 'support' from the store. The sole extent of my interaction with a gaming store is that I give them money, and they give me product. I couldn't care less if the staff can teach me to wetblend or not, nor could any of the people I regularly game with.


The 'support for the community' argument is nonsense. It's a platitude that doesn't actually make any sense when you stop and look at it.

A huge amount of games are sold via demos. By store, convention or otherwise. People have to be shown what something is before they buy it.
Does Amazon do demos? What about Wayland games? Or Miniature Market?
The fact is, all you are asking for is someone to give your money to, but you then hand that money to companies who aren't even involved with the hobby outside of the business end, solely due to price. Yet you are buying a product that is founded, funded and born from physical game stores.
Do the majority of physical stores have gaming space? Maybe not. But you say that's not important.
Do the majority of online stores participate in massive price undercuts? Absolutely. Is that all that is important to you? The best deal?
If it is, you are supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist for the gaming industry to thrive, and sliding the industry even further in that direction.
That is nonsense.

Neronoxx wrote:

A huge amount of games are sold via demos. By store, convention or otherwise. People have to be shown what something is before they buy it.

Sure. And that's a good reason for stores to do demos.

That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to only allow stores to sell your product if they run demos. (For the record, I have at least a dozen different miniatures games. I played demos for exactly none of them before buying them... so whether or not the store I bought them from ran demos would have had absolutely zero effect on my decision to purchase.)

It also doesn't mean it's a good idea to only apply that requirement to run demos if the store in question only sells online.

Does Amazon do demos? What about Wayland games? Or Miniature Market?

I would assume that Wayland does.

Amazon obviously doesn't... whch would seem to suggest that demos are not required to sell gaming product.

The fact is, all you are asking for is someone to give your money to, but you then hand that money to companies who aren't even involved with the hobby outside of the business end, solely due to price.

Do I?

Several of the online stores I regularly buy from are companies that have physical storefronts. I just buy online as it's cheaper than flying to Melbourne. Or England.

Again, the prohibition that is being suggested in this announcement isn't just affecting online discounters. They want to stop everyone from selling online.

Do the majority of physical stores have gaming space? Maybe not. But you say that's not important.

It's important to some customers. Not at all to others.

Do the majority of online stores participate in massive price undercuts? Absolutely. Is that all that is important to you? The best deal?

I haven't done enough research on the majority of online stores to know for sure. But, ultimately, that's not my problem. It's up to the store to set their prices at a level they are comfortable with, and for me as the customer to choose whether or not to buy from them.

If it is, you are supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist for the gaming industry to thrive, and sliding the industry even further in that direction.

No, I'm supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist in order for me to support my hobby.

Some customers will find value in physical stores running gaming tables and 'supporting' their hobby. Some will not. Expecting those who don't to fund those things for those who do is short-sighted. The logical thing to do is to allow those who want to purchase from a store to purchase from a store, and those who want to purchase online to purchase online.

Restricting access to a product is not the way to encourage the growth of that product.

What occurs to me is that The War Store still offers to sell people Games Workshop models over the internet. A person who wants to buy GW from them simply doesn't get the convenience of shopping with a modern shopping cart and instead has to either call the store or e-mail them, and then wait for the invoice by mail.

So Amodee is actually specifying terms that are more restrictive than Games Workshop, since they're prohibiting retailers doing any mail order (including the primitive phone or e-mail driven sort).

Because the terms as detailed by the Board Game Geek post doesn't really leave any room for arguing: https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/49015/starting-2016-asmodee-will-operate-asmodee-north-a

IV. Retailer's Conduct

A. Channel of Sale
RETAILER MUST NOT SELL OR TRANSFER ANY ANA PRODUCT PURCHASED HEREUNDER IN ANY MANNER OTHER THAN THROUGH FACE-TO-FACE COMMERCIAL RESALE EXCHANGE WITH END-USERS IN RETAILER'S PHYSICAL RETAIL LOCATION(S) OR AT A PHYSICAL EXTENSION OF THE RETAILER'S RETAIL LOCATION AT A CONSUMER SHOW/CONVENTION. ALL OTHER CHANNELS AND METHODS OF SALE FOR ANA PRODUCT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO SUB-DISTRIBUTION, SALES OVER THE INTERNET, AND MAIL ORDER.

FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT, ANY TRANSFER OR SALE OF ANA PRODUCTS TO SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATE COMPANIES CONTROLLED, OR PARTIALLY CONTROLLED, BY RETAILER OR ANY OF RETAILERS' OWNERS AND/OR SHAREHOLDERS, ARE PROHIBITED HEREUNDER.

and even has a "Yes, we really, really mean it" section:

Q: I sell some Asmodee North America products in my store, and some on my website (or through another online marketplace). As an Asmodee Specialty Retailer, will I be able to continue to do all of this?
A: No, as a Specialty Retailer, you are limited to the channel of sale involving resale of Asmodee North America products to end-users only, by transaction in your physical retail stores only.

Q: I want to sell products from Asmodee North America online, how do I do this?
A: We will be very selective as to which online merchants will be authorized to sell our products. To qualify as an online merchant, you will need to contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation. Most online sales activities, including sales through third party websites, will not be authorized.


Q: I sub-distribute products to other businesses, what do I do?
A: Asmodee North America will not authorize sub-distribution of our products, unless by rare and unique exception.

so even something like The War Store buying some product and then selling that at cost to 'Totally Not The WarStore's eBay account' isn't likely to last long.

 Peregrine wrote:
The actual reason for this policy is that FFG recognizes the importance of physical stores in marketing and supporting their products. An online discount store is cheaper, but doesn't host tournaments, persuade new customers to buy stuff, put up a rack of games in a prominent location, etc.

Well, you may have heard of BoardGameGeek which effectively promotes boardgames every day much better than the FLGS you visit weekly (or monthly... or never).

Anyone here remember Mayfair? They make games like Catan and... uh... games. The implemented this policy a few years ago. My suspicion is that Asmodee wants their games in Target and Walmart like Mayfair does.

To qualify as an online merchant, you will need to contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation.


Yep. Walmart and Target!

I should mention that, for quite awhile already, It's Magic the Gathering which the FLGS has relied upon for sales, not boardgames. (Not sure how much the FLGS relies upon Warhammer 40K and similar games.) FLGS's, of course, run CCG tournaments (eg. drafts, release tournaments) that do not fit the format of a boardgame. OTOH, FFG *has* been running its even center for several years, so may know how to make boardgames dependent on the FLGS like Magic the Gathering is.

Still, Asmodee and FFG don't control the boardgame market like GW controls the miniature wargaming market. When's CMON's next KS starting, anyway???

If a brick and mortar store wants to compete, they have to change, either sell online as a side, or make me want to come to your store.
Games stores are not charities.

 warboss wrote:
It was a douche move when Gw did it and is now with Asmodee/FFG. It seems when a games company reaches a certain size, the greed blooms uncontrollably. This no more is a real reason than it was with Gw. I guess in a few years we'll see similar follow up moves like cutting out distributors further then direct only xwing ships.

Not really greed, FFG, indeed GW, makes the same money selling to a FLGS as does to miniature market, it's the individual store margins that vary. They don't really believe that this move is going to push mire sales through their own online store, it's more likely they've decided that they are fed up of cheap online sales harming the retailers who do real events, that actually use the gaming kit to do events rather than ebay it, are worth protecting. Amazon, however, will not get cut out. I guarantee it.

for brick and mortar to compete they need to charge per use of tables.

 insaniak wrote:
Amazon obviously doesn't... whch would seem to suggest that demos are not required to sell gaming product.

It's funny you mention this because one of the reasons people hate amazon is that they take advantage of the promotional work physical stores do to create customers and then hijack those customers by offering lower prices. I don't know how common it is, but there's at least anecdotal evidence of people going into physical stores, getting help choosing a product from the store employees, and then scanning the barcode to buy it on amazon at a discount the store can't afford to offer.

So, in the case of games on amazon, demos are still necessary and amazon is just taking advantage of the fact that other people are doing all of the work of demos/recruiting friends/etc.

They want to stop everyone from selling online.

That's not what it says. The policy grants exceptions to stores FFG wants to permit. My guess is that they'll make arrangements for certain online stores to continue selling at full retail price, ensuring access to products for people who don't have physical stores nearby but preventing the online market from undercutting the physical stores.

No, I'm supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist in order for me to support my hobby.

And you're wrong, at least in the US. Stores are incredibly important in recruiting new players, and filling the need for a "you will always have a place to play this" safety net that makes people willing to invest a ton of money into a game that requires 2+ people. You personally might not need a physical store because you only play kitchen table games with one friend, but without the stores you probably wouldn't have started playing in the first place and you won't have a company to buy from very much longer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
FFG doesn't have significant direct sales volume YET (an assumption btw). Do you want to know how they got that significant direct sales volume? They started by doing EXACTLY what Fantasy Flight is doing following in their footsteps with the same copy/paste spin as well.

Err, what? GW have always had significant direct sales, from the day the company was created as a retail store for D&D products in the UK. There is no point in GW's history where they haven't been competing with third-party sales and getting significant percentages of their revenue from direct sales. FFG has a completely different business model, and there's no reason at all to believe that they're about to switch to a GW-style model.

For grins, here is one Game Store Owner's view of the decision:

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2015/12/fixing-devalued-market-tradecraft.html#disqus_thread

He seems quite pleased about it. I suspect a fair number of FLGS owners will be too.

Board Games, and even this X-wing game also sell in the Big Box stores-- Target, Walmart etc-- in the USA. I wonder if those places had any influence on the decision?

That is one of my LGS. The owner is a donkey cave who has numerous times accused online retailers of stealing food from his kids mouths. Anything he says should be taken with some salt.

It's to bad really, the fact is they will lose a customer base by forcing people to got to stores. I do not want to drive an hour paying for gas to pay full price. I play at home with friends and would actualy avoided stores. D & D and other RPG's seem to deal with it fine. They are not forced to buy in a store to play. In the end sales will go down regardless of those paying MSRP.
Customers will chase their fantasy in another game or go to video games at discount prices online.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and one more item, LGS generally have several systems in their store, with the exception of GW.

Q: I sell some Asmodee North America products in my store, and some on my website (or through another online marketplace). As an Asmodee Specialty Retailer, will I be able to continue to do all of this?
A: No, as a Specialty Retailer, you are limited to the channel of sale involving resale of Asmodee North America products to end-users only, by transaction in your physical retail stores only.

Q: I want to sell products from Asmodee North America online, how do I do this?
A: We will be very selective as to which online merchants will be authorized to sell our products. To qualify as an online merchant, you will need to contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation. Most online sales activities, including sales through third party websites, will not be authorized.


Q: I sub-distribute products to other businesses, what do I do?
A: Asmodee North America will not authorize sub-distribution of our products, unless by rare and unique exception.

Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby

By that logic, a car dealership who only sells cars, is not supporting the car industry because he doesn't organise a Grand Prix or other races?

Here in the UK, I live in the middle of nowhere, and it's a 4 hour round trip to the nearest FLGS. As you can imagine, the petrol price for that is not cheap.

Buying stuff online saves a fair amount of money.

Somebody mentioned Wayland Games earlier, but they run events now as well, and it looks like they're building bricks and mortar stores.

 Peregrine wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
The problem actually doing this is that you cannot put the genie back in the bottle, the internet is not going away so whatever they do is really never going to be effective long term, it mainly ends up annoying customers.

How can it not be effective long term? The publisher has full control of who they sell to and at what prices, if they want to remove internet discount sales they can easily do it. And honestly, they might lose a few sales from people who are outraged about losing their discount sellers but I suspect it's a tiny price to pay for keeping their physical store networks intact.

It's not a question of outrage. People's money supply doesn't expand to accommodate the higher prices so people will just be forced to buy less stuff.

Neronoxx wrote:
Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby.

Online discounters increase the supply of opponents by reducing the barrier to entry. That benefits you and your hobby even if you don't buy from an online discounter yourself.

It doesn't say they'll stop all online sales, just be very selective about who can sell online, right? Terms look really harsh but people should still be able to order product from home by some means...