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Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.

When I looked earlier today, their normal everyday xwing discount was pretty much 33% across the board ($45 items for just under 30, $15 for under 10, etc). That beats anything I've ever seen from a mom and pop online retailer and is pretty much around what amazon gives. They also do sales (both general and daily single item) of 50% a couple of times a year (most recently last month for Black Friday).

 Peregrine wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
except not. More people will always be gaming, whether tabletop or board games, with their friends in someone's home. Not a gaming/hobby shop.

But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?

My group had one guy get into it after seeing Fantasy Flight had picked up the license for Star Wars when WotC let it lapse. From there, he showed the rest of us the game. From there, I play at various friends' houses, and talk about it almost exclusively online in forums like this one. I saw my first game via TableTop, the Wil Weaton Youtube show (where they play parts of the game wrong). At no point was anyone required to set foot inside a hobby shop. The last time I was even in a hobby shop was back in July when a friend visited from out of town and we decided to go over old stomping grounds. Prior to that, I hadn't been to that store in at least 15 years. (in fact they had moved locations twice since I had been there, but that's beside the point)

I don't think "friends" is such an odd answer, especially in any group that has been gaming together for years. Did someone possibly see/learn about it in an FLGS to start the whole thing? Sure. Does that FLGS get credit for showing everyone that Player 0 teaches? Not in the slightest. I learned about Fantasy Flight's board games through going to their site or sites like BGG or this one.

I seriously don't understand how in the internet age, gaming is some sort of holy relic, knowledge of which is only bestowed upon mere mortals in some sacred brick and mortar shrine. The idea that everyone, or even most people, play in game stores seems ludicrous to me, not because I haven't had a FLGS for a long time, but because I can't imagine that most people like to get together with random strangers to play games that they could play with friends in the comfort of someone's home. A good number of the games I doubt would even be available in a regular hobby shop. Do places regularly stock Flying Frog Productions games? Or indie games like Tokaido or "On Her Majesty's Service: World of Smog"?

 warboss wrote:
You realize that gamers aren't exclusively located in stores, right? We do leave the store occasionally in most cases. You can meet gamers online on places like Dakka after a simple google search or just talk geek with a coworker who introduces you to gaming or go to a scifi con that happens to have a gaming room. I got into gaming in high school when I saw someone reading a Robotech RPG book in the aisle next to me and mentioned that I was a fan of the cartoon years earlier. I didn't play in a games store for almost a decade after that and the only store I had within bicycle riding distance for years was a crowded mall novelty store with a single 6ft rack of RPG titles and a 2ft rack of minis. They had more space devoted to lava lamps then all tabletop gaming combined.

Yes, people CAN be introduced to gaming and new games without stores, but it's a question of volume. If a significant percentage of new recruits disappears then publishers will fail, prices will go up to compensate for the lost sales, etc. And that kind of thing can have a chain reaction effect until miniatures games are an irrelevant niche market with a few hardcore fans struggling to keep the hobby going.

Also, consider the whole chain of introductions, not just one person's introduction. For example, a person is introduced to MTG by a friend, but that friend discovered MTG at a local store. And then both of them get into 40k because they were at a store for a MTG tournament and saw how cool the models were. Even if they never play 40k in a store and always buy their 40k stuff online that store is still a vital piece of getting them into the game.

The folks looking for the biggest discounts won't have to change a thing as apparently every big box store and amazon get an automatic pass and likely the biggest hobby specific online retailers will get one as well.

Assuming that the hobby-specific sellers get to stay is just that: an assumption. And let's not forget that amazon's goal is profit, not having the lowest prices. If the online sellers with the biggest discounts are removed from the market then amazon no longer has as much pressure to set their own discount at such a high level. Amazon would love to have a monopoly on the market and sell at full MSRP.

 warboss wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.

When I looked earlier today, their normal everyday xwing discount was pretty much 33% across the board ($45 items for just under 30, $15 for under 10, etc). That beats anything I've ever seen from a mom and pop online retailer and is pretty much around what amazon gives. They also do sales (both general and daily single item) of 50% a couple of times a year (most recently last month for Black Friday).

And I honestly don't see the issue here. MM does 33% across the board, sure. Mom and Pops do 10-20 percent, right? (Honest question; as I've said repeatedly I haven't had a FLGS for years). If supporting your local game store isn't worth the extra couple bucks in there, that says something about your actual dedication to that game store. It doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to order from MM, for the same as their one brick and mortar store 12 hours away from me, when I have no FLGS offering that 15-20%.

 Peregrine wrote:
But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?

Gaming clubs. Tournaments. Introducing friends or family to the game. Game-finders on online forums. Craigslist. Hiring a van with a loudspeaker and driving around the neighbourhood broadcasting the sound of a chocolate wrapper being opened.

Or, in other words, all of the ways that gamers who don't have local stores already do it, and always have done.

Sure, it can change, but we have to be realistic about this: it's not how things work right now, and it's uncertain if or how things might change in the future. And we really have to ask which is more likely here:

1) The US is moving to a "buy online, play at a gaming club" kind of community and business model where physical stores are just a place to pick up a box of something if it's convenient and in-store gaming is limited to occasional demo games of a new product.

or

2) Stores are important and will continue to be important for the foreseeable future, and this is just a case of short-sighted customers chasing the lowest possible prices no matter how much it hurts them in the long run.

You're still working from the baseless assumption that buying online is going to hurt them in the long run, because you apparently have decided that it's impossible for the hobby to survive in the US any way other than how it currently works, despite all evidence to the contrary from the rest of the world.

It might take a while, but I think the former option is the most likely in the long run, as more and more retail business moves online. And as such, I think that stores and suppliers would be better served by working towards that end, rather than trying to cling to the current way of doing things just because it's how it's always worked up to now.

 streamdragon wrote:
If supporting your local game store isn't worth the extra couple bucks in there, that says something about your actual dedication to that game store.

It does say something, and that's the reason why FFG feels a need to protect their retail stores. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who will gladly buy stuff online to save an extra 5% and then bring everything into their local store to use the tables and find opponents. And, even worse, they'll proudly tell everyone else about how clever they are for saving that 5% and suggest that other people do the same. If people weren't TFGs about it we wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem and this new policy would be redundant. But, unfortunately, relying on people to do the right thing doesn't work.

My local store does:

Pre-orders: 10% off
Paid up local Gaming Club members: 10% off
Both of the above: 15% off

Apparently "both of the above" might be changing to 25% off next year. To be honest, that seems like kinda much, but then, primarily as a comic shop, having a customer come in today, like I did, and drop nearly the equivalent of $200 on star wars, is probably a big deal.

 insaniak wrote:
Gaming clubs. Tournaments. Introducing friends or family to the game. Game-finders on online forums. Craigslist. Hiring a van with a loudspeaker and driving around the neighbourhood broadcasting the sound of a chocolate wrapper being opened.

Gaming clubs (at least ones that exist independent of a store) are virtually nonexistent in the US. Tournaments, outside of a few national-level events and the hardcore players who spend hundreds of dollars on attending them, are hosted by stores. Online forums are for people who are already involved in the game, and depend on having a critical mass of non-store players around to use them. For example, dakka's player finder shows a whole 6 players for 40k within a 100-mile radius, and there's no guarantee that those players are hosting their own events instead of saying "let's go play at the local store". And craigslist might be an option, if you're looking for anonymous sex in 40k costumes instead of actual games.

You're still working from the baseless assumption that buying online is going to hurt them in the long run, because you apparently have decided that it's impossible for the hobby to survive in the US any way other than how it currently works, despite all evidence to the contrary from the rest of the world.

I didn't say that it's impossible for it to make the required changes and survive, I said that it's more likely that the loss of retail stores would cause significant damage to the hobby. Remember, this is already a niche hobby where the lure of video games and similar low-effort alternatives is a major threat. Adding more barriers to entry very likely means losing players.

 Peregrine wrote:
Gaming clubs (at least ones that exist independent of a store) are virtually nonexistent in the US.

Well, yes, of course they are. So long as stores offer gaming space, there is little need for gaming clubs, at least in areas where there are stores.

Of course, once upon a time, online discounters were also virtually nonexistent in the US. It's almost like things change over time.


You're fixated on how it currently works in the US. The counterpoint being made is that it doesn't work that way pretty much everywhere else, which suggests quite strongly that changing the staus quo wouldn't be anywhere near as destructive as you seem to think.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.

IIRC didn't they and/or Amazon have the starter set @ $50 a week or so ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
except not. More people will always be gaming, whether tabletop or board games, with their friends in someone's home. Not a gaming/hobby shop.

But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?

My group had one guy get into it after seeing Fantasy Flight had picked up the license for Star Wars when WotC let it lapse. From there, he showed the rest of us the game. From there, I play at various friends' houses, and talk about it almost exclusively online in forums like this one. I saw my first game via TableTop, the Wil Weaton Youtube show (where they play parts of the game wrong). At no point was anyone required to set foot inside a hobby shop. The last time I was even in a hobby shop was back in July when a friend visited from out of town and we decided to go over old stomping grounds. Prior to that, I hadn't been to that store in at least 15 years. (in fact they had moved locations twice since I had been there, but that's beside the point)

I don't think "friends" is such an odd answer, especially in any group that has been gaming together for years. Did someone possibly see/learn about it in an FLGS to start the whole thing? Sure. Does that FLGS get credit for showing everyone that Player 0 teaches? Not in the slightest. I learned about Fantasy Flight's board games through going to their site or sites like BGG or this one.

I seriously don't understand how in the internet age, gaming is some sort of holy relic, knowledge of which is only bestowed upon mere mortals in some sacred brick and mortar shrine. The idea that everyone, or even most people, play in game stores seems ludicrous to me, not because I haven't had a FLGS for a long time, but because I can't imagine that most people like to get together with random strangers to play games that they could play with friends in the comfort of someone's home. A good number of the games I doubt would even be available in a regular hobby shop. Do places regularly stock Flying Frog Productions games? Or indie games like Tokaido or "On Her Majesty's Service: World of Smog"?

Likewise, not everyone gets to live in the same place for a significant period of time.
Game stores, when present, help those of us who have to move frequently.
My military time and post-military employment have moved us every 1-4 years with an average of 2.5 years.
If you've not had to break into a gaming community multiple times and numerous locations, it's not always easy.
I'm not defending Asmodee's move on this but I do see the value in supporting FLGS if you have one that you use.

 Peregrine wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
If supporting your local game store isn't worth the extra couple bucks in there, that says something about your actual dedication to that game store.

It does say something, and that's the reason why FFG feels a need to protect their retail stores. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who will gladly buy stuff online to save an extra 5% and then bring everything into their local store to use the tables and find opponents. And, even worse, they'll proudly tell everyone else about how clever they are for saving that 5% and suggest that other people do the same. If people weren't TFGs about it we wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem and this new policy would be redundant. But, unfortunately, relying on people to do the right thing doesn't work.

"Their" retail stores don't exist. They have one, in MN.

And I think you missed my point. If someone isn't willing to support their local store, that says something that has nothing to do with FFG, WotC or any other companies out there. It means they don't give a crap about that store, regardless of what is sold or done there. There is no reason to be beholden to some brick and mortar shop. If it's a business that offers great service, people will support it regardless of what FFG does, or allows MM to do. It's certainly no reason to feth over the rest of the populace that doesn't have or doesn't want a FLGS/community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

privateer4hire wrote:

Likewise, not everyone gets to live in the same place for a significant period of time.
Game stores, when present, help those of us who have to move frequently.
My military time and post-military employment have moved us every 1-4 years with an average of 2.5 years.
If you've not had to break into a gaming community multiple times and numerous locations, it's not always easy.
I'm not defending Asmodee's move on this but I do see the value in supporting FLGS if you have one that you use.

I am clearly not understanding something, since I don't see how having a FLGS helps if you have to move and leave it. Unless you are saying FLGS are a nice way to meet people, in which case I will agree and point out that I have never argued otherwise. I used to have a FLGS that I loved dearly. I spent every weekend there. Until they moved to a location I could no longer walk to (this was before I had a car). I was an army brat. I moved constantly as a kid, so I know where you're coming from. I will also point out that I have never and would never suggest that supporting an FLGS is bad.

None of which has anything, really, to do with what FFG is doing here. Especially for those of us without an FLGS, all it does is kill my interest in the game because I'm apparently not a worthy enough customer in their eyes. That is the basic message being sent.

FLGS are a nice way to meet people. That's exactly what I'm saying. If a person plays with the same folks he/she went to high school/college/long-term work gig with because they were able to live in the same spot for many years, that's great. Not everybody has that benefit.

Also, I said I didn't support what Asmodee was doing but do support things that bolster FLGSs (and good ones, of course) in succeeding.

I literally cannot remember the last time I bought anything from a physical shop that wasn't a supermarket or a petrol station. I also can't remember the last time I paid full retail for anything I bought online. Arguments in favour of restricting online sales seem to be trying to ignore the fact that it's 2015 (nearly 2016!)

Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this?
Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
You know there is a social part to gaming, right?.

Meetups and forums.

The internet killed everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this?
Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.

Well, considering EA *already* does this, I think everyone has their answer right there.

Now, back to Sims 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
How much do these huge online discounts end up being anyway? (Including taxes etc on the final price).

In the USA, 25% off is standard. During sales and Black Friday, 50% off is typical, and not hard to find something at 66% off,. You can find 90% off in the clearance bin.

Many OLGS offer free shipping, from $85 at Funagain, to $125 at Cardhaus. Sales tax is only collected if you live in the same state as the seller.

Pretty good setup, really.

EDIT: Pathfinder Skull and Shackles base set for $19! Go buy now! : http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Adventure-Card-Game-Shackles/dp/1601256477/ref=sr_1_3?m=A2GL066XZ9MVR7&s=merchant-items&ie=UTF8&qid=1448644309&sr=1-3&tag=article-boardgamegeek-20

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this?
Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.

That's not a very good analogy because video games don't have the same kind of in-store community that miniatures games usually have. If you go into a physical game store you're unlikely to even encounter any fellow players, so very little, if anything is lost if the stores all go out of business. It's just such a different community and business model that anything you say about video games has no real relevance to this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
"Their" retail stores don't exist. They have one, in MN.

By "their stores" I mean stores that they have a business relationship with.

And I think you missed my point. If someone isn't willing to support their local store, that says something that has nothing to do with FFG, WotC or any other companies out there. It means they don't give a crap about that store, regardless of what is sold or done there. There is no reason to be beholden to some brick and mortar shop. If it's a business that offers great service, people will support it regardless of what FFG does, or allows MM to do. It's certainly no reason to feth over the rest of the populace that doesn't have or doesn't want a FLGS/community.

No, I got your point, I just don't agree with it. Many of these people DO care about their stores. They care about the free table space, they care about the events, they care about the new players the store recruits, etc. They just want to have all of that stuff for free and save an extra 5% by buying all of their stuff online. I've seen people in stores to play games on that store's tables bragging about how clever they are for buying a whole army online instead of at the store they're playing in. The only way to make these people stop being TFG is to take away their ability to buy online at a huge discount and allow the local store to be the cheapest option without going bankrupt trying.

 Peregrine wrote:
The only way to make these people stop being TFG is to take away their ability to buy online at a huge discount and allow the local store to be the cheapest option without going bankrupt trying.

Or take away from the store the expense of trying to be both a shop and a gaming venue so that they can offer competitive prices...


The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less a valid alternative.

 insaniak wrote:
Or take away from the store the expense of trying to be both a shop and a gaming venue so that they can offer competitive prices....

Sure works well for GW.........

Man, where are you people living with easy access to all these stores? I've never lived closer than 2 hours from a FLGS, with the exception of a lousy one that went out of business within a year for the usual bad gaming store reasons... and I live right near a fairly large city (100k people).

I got into the game from playing Dawn of War, and then started ordering my minis from the Warstore. I then got my friends into the h-h-hobby, wen I played, via the warstore as well. Sorry we ruined the hobby for everyone one else, somehow!

 Ouze wrote:
Man, where are you people living with easy access to all these stores? I've never lived closer than 2 hours from a FLGS, with the exception of a lousy one that went out of business within a year for the usual bad gaming store reasons... and I live right near a fairly large city (100k people).

I got into the game from playing Dawn of War, and then started ordering my minis from the Warstore. I then got my friends into the h-h-hobby, wen I played, via the warstore as well.

100k people is a town here (SE England), allot wouldn't have a FLGS either. Of course in the UK the next town would only be 10-30 minutes away so the likely hood is that a FLGS is a manageable distance.

Of course if someone is out in the sticks somewhere then this is less likely.

I have Wayland Games, 4TK, Tolehaven, 5 GWs and a few small indies within 30 minutes drive of my house. Just showing off!

 notprop wrote:
100k people is a town here (SE England), allot wouldn't have a FLGS either. Of course in the UK the next town would only be 10-30 minutes away so the likely hood is that a FLGS is a manageable distance.

Of course if someone is out in the sticks somewhere then this is less likely.

I have Wayland Games, 4TK, Tolehaven, 5 GWs and a few small indies within 30 minutes drive of my house. Just showing off!

I think that our sense of "out in the sticks" may not line up well, as we could drop your entire country into California nearly twice. I have to imagine there are some pretty big portions of the US with no easy access to a FLGS.

I wish I had access to a GW the way you guys did - I went to one once in Chicago and it was pretty nice. Of course, they didn't have any of the (then) new Necron characters available, but they could order them for me. So, maybe the shine would wear off quickly.

When I was growing up the nearest shop that sold wargaming stuff was an hour and a half away, this was in the UK.
Even though the UK is supposedly the wargaming capital of the world there simply arent all that many physical wargaming shops.

I strongly doubt this move would encourage the people who browse their FLGS and then buy online to suddenly stop doing so. For those concerned about people not supporting their FLGS, why not just have the shop charge for table usage that isn't MtG? That way you can continue supporting the shop and the people who prefer to buy online can do so without the accusations of not supporting the hobby or being forced to pay higher prices due to their geographical location.

I have four local game stores within an hour's drive (barring massive traffic snarls but that's a risk anywhere). If you add in multiple locations of the same tree, it's really more of seven though some of them are more of card game outlets that will sell other things. Also a GW out there somewhere which I guess counts in general but not so much for a FFG discussion. I am spoiled for options is the takeaway of this seminar.

I do try to steer business to the "good" ones that provide gaming space and events, but as the years have gone by they have made that increasingly difficult to justify. As others have said, I don't run a charity and I also haven't actually put a model on one of their tables in years; it could be approaching a decade at this point. My in-store purchases have dropped from hundreds a month in-store to maybe a hundred in a quarter (while overall hobby spending has increased insanely). KickStarter factors in there too.

However, during that time the amount the stores seem to be willing to work with the customer to get to a satisfactory deal has dropped. Pre-orders at MSRP only. Some items marked at more than MSRP (often enough that it seems unlikely to be accidental). No discounts for huge orders. Pretty much anything that moves the price in favor of the customer is verboten. On a single item that they have on the shelf already I think MSRP is fair to ask. On larger orders, the stores can knock money off the price much more easily, especially if it needs to be ordered in due to size. That they don't because they want to make $450 instead of $350 means that $300 goes to MM. That's simply being bad at business to let money leave.

Are there jerks like Peregrine talks about who would still buy from MM and then wear a t-shirt to that effect to the store? Undoubtedly, but they've been around since the secondary market existed. Basing how you conduct business based on the worst examples in society is generally a bad idea; it just encourages people to be the worst since that's how they're being treated anyway.

You guys still think this is about the FLGS? It's about Big Box cutting out their online competition. From the just-released clarification:

How will this affect mass market outlets, such a Amazon, Target, or Barnes and Noble?
We consider the mass/broad market to be its own unique channel of sale, one we want to be successful in its own right alongside our other successful channels of sale.

It's more corporatespeak, but here's the "clarification" of their statement: https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/49101/asmodee-clarifies-its-changes-2016-online-sales-wi

Seems legit. The 20% discount offered through Amazon is a different kind of 20% to the 20% offered by Dave's Discount Games.

They take it from a different part of the pricetag, or something.

 Ouze wrote:
Man, where are you people living with easy access to all these stores? I've never lived closer than 2 hours from a FLGS, with the exception of a lousy one that went out of business within a year for the usual bad gaming store reasons... and I live right near a fairly large city (100k people).

I got into the game from playing Dawn of War, and then started ordering my minis from the Warstore. I then got my friends into the h-h-hobby, wen I played, via the warstore as well. Sorry we ruined the hobby for everyone one else, somehow!

While I'm luckier than some, I know people in the rural Midwest that would have to drive 2+ hours to get to a game store. The notion that the US game stores can grow the community just as well as online stores seems like a very urban-centric view.

I'm sorry, but if you own a FLGS you own a business and should compete accordingly.

When GW was big before they butchered the rules over and over, only 1 FLGS in town offered a discount below MSRP. That store tore it UP with sales. Murdered it. Everyone else was just the backup plan if the first place ran out of stock.

If you want to compete by having free tables and pretty terrain, sure that will get butts in the door and always get you some snap decision purchases, but the almighty dollar speaks, and volume of sales beats MSRP every day of the week.

My brother in law has a game store that you pay like 10 bucks to get 10% off any purchase and 20% off on purchases over 20% for a whole year. If it was local to me, that store would get every nickel and dime I spent. I'd probably play at and go to the local shops far more frequently if they did ANY kind of discounting, but since they don't, I buy from MM and play at home. Why should we be forced to reward businesses that don't understand supply and demand?

I think this whole change to their trade channels is to support expanding their presence in big box retailers. Most of the US ones offer online price matching. It's possible they are having trouble convincing Walmart or Target to carry more of the X-Wing stuff with places like the Miniature Market offering deep 30% or greater discounts.

Having more of their Star Wars products in Walmart or Target for this Christmas season alongside the movie would have been big $$$. Walmart has been known to impose packaging and other restrictions on manufacturers to get their products in their stores. These trade channel rules could be contractually imposed in order to increase the amount of FFG products either store will carry in the next few months.