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Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Good. I'm only fighting 3 Y-wings.
And a Bugzapper Z95 which does damage to your precious ace without even rolling dice.
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Good. I'm only fighting 3 Y-wings.
And a Bugzapper Z95 which does damage to your precious ace without even rolling dice.
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Good. I'm only fighting 3 Y-wings.
And a Bugzapper Z95 which does damage to your precious ace without even rolling dice.
Good thing I'm not at range 1 then.
Of course. Fly around at range band 3 relying on your autothrusters to protect your stealth device to protect you when you don't get agility range bonuses against double 4 dice attacks. Kavil would be happy to plink your stealth device off and let his buddies shred you while you struggle to scratch the paint on a Y-Wing.
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Good. I'm only fighting 3 Y-wings.
And a Bugzapper Z95 which does damage to your precious ace without even rolling dice.
Good thing I'm not at range 1 then.
Of course. Fly around at range band 3 relying on your autothrusters to protect your stealth device to protect you when you don't get agility range bonuses against double 4 dice attacks. Kavil would be happy to plink your stealth device off and let his buddies shred you while you struggle to scratch the paint on a Y-Wing.
I don't think you realize a couple things here.
1) I'm not at range 3- I'm out of arc, so autothrusters will always trigger, without giving you a range bonus.
2) I'm not ruling out range 1, except vs the Headhunter. I'm just saying that it's not the only defense vs TLT's.
3) I will have tokens to help me dodge vs Kavil, since he will be the first guy shooting at me. This means Focus and Evade minimum, and double-focus if we are using the situation described by Riquende (Get out of arc on first action). Baring terrible luck, Kavil will not touch me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/17 20:56:09
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Good. I'm only fighting 3 Y-wings.
And a Bugzapper Z95 which does damage to your precious ace without even rolling dice.
Good thing I'm not at range 1 then.
Of course. Fly around at range band 3 relying on your autothrusters to protect your stealth device to protect you when you don't get agility range bonuses against double 4 dice attacks. Kavil would be happy to plink your stealth device off and let his buddies shred you while you struggle to scratch the paint on a Y-Wing.
I don't think you realize a couple things here.
1) I'm not at range 3- I'm out of arc, so autothrusters will always trigger, without giving you a range bonus.
2) I'm not ruling out range 1, except vs the Headhunter. I'm just saying that it's not the only defense vs TLT's.
3) I will have tokens to help me dodge vs Kavil, since he will be the first guy shooting at me. This means Focus and Evade minimum, and double-focus if we are using the situation described by Riquende (Get out of arc on first action). Baring terrible luck, Kavil will not touch me.
I don't think you realize you're defending twin laser turrets and saying that interceptors can rely on their green dice and two, maybe three, tokens to defend themselves. And that the difference between living and dying is a 3 point upgrade that only adds one green die and does nothing as soon as you get hit once. Which you will be after the first two Y-Wings force you to use up your tokens or be hit anyway, and then the third starts taking hull points.
If you truly believe that four green dice with tokens and a modifier for a blank result is all you need to survive the weight of fire of 3-4 twin laser turrets then by all means, you should be using Whisper with a Flight Instructor and Advanced Cloaking Device.
Your primary weapon is better, your shield/hull ratio is better, you have more total resistance, and you have a systems upgrade slot to take FCS or sensor jammer to better increase your damage or survivability respectively. Not to mention your agility doesn't "break" as soon as you get hit and then you go up in a ball of flames.
So please, using your logic, explain to me why people aren't flocking to the phantom to counter the rampant use of twin laser turrets?
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
Why are we assuming that Fel is "jousting" with the TLT spam list instead of flying around the edge of the fight, avoiding shots, and only committing once a TLT or two is dead? Against TLT spam you throw the other 65 points of your list at the TLTs while Fel waits in the corner, and taking Kavil to cut you down to three TLTs only makes this plan easier. By the time Fel actually engages you're down to 1-2 TLTs, one of which probably won't get to shoot because Fel is at range 1.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Peregrine wrote: Why are we assuming that Fel is "jousting" with the TLT spam list instead of flying around the edge of the fight, avoiding shots, and only committing once a TLT or two is dead? Against TLT spam you throw the other 65 points of your list at the TLTs while Fel waits in the corner, and taking Kavil to cut you down to three TLTs only makes this plan easier. By the time Fel actually engages you're down to 1-2 TLTs, one of which probably won't get to shoot because Fel is at range 1.
Because we assume the Y Wing player isn't an idiot and doesn't concentrate fire on the distraction carnifex you sent into their midst.
Not to mention a Decimator melts under two turns of fire from TLT spam while not managing to strip shields on one Y Wing. A firespray fairs better but still dies quickly and doesn't do enough damage back to reduce the TLTs you face with Soontir once he's done hiding like a coward and contributing nothing.
So you're going to take three shuttles to beat the Y Wings, tailor your list so badly you lose to everything else because you only have 35 points of usable imperial craft?
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
bocatt wrote: Because we assume the Y Wing player isn't an idiot and doesn't concentrate fire on the distraction carnifex you sent into their midst.
Congratulations, your y-wings get shot to death by the distraction while Fel runs away. You're never going to catch an interceptor with y-wings unless you spread out to cover the whole table. And if you spread out that much you've given Fel a 1v1 with an isolated y-wing, exactly what the Fel player wants.
Not to mention a Decimator melts under two turns of fire from TLT spam while not managing to strip shields on one Y Wing. A firespray fairs better but still dies quickly and doesn't do enough damage back to reduce the TLTs you face with Soontir once he's done hiding like a coward and contributing nothing.
Or your opponent brings Howlrunner and 3x black squadron TIEs with crack shot. That's a pretty good chance of a dead y-wing before it can shoot on the opening salvo, and you'll probably lose another one before you can finish off the support ships. And there's the endgame Fel wants to see.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I'm both very glad that TLT spam has yet to arrive in my local meta, and wondering what any of this has to do with the TAP.
I know Stealth Device is broadly a better upgrade than Targeting Computer. I also know that:
- Fel sometimes has a wasted action when you've BR'd out of every arc
- I've played games where Fel hasn't come close to needing his SD to save him
I also know that in a 3 Imperial Aces list, every point is at an absolute premium. This is just the most acceptable compromise to make everything fit, as you clearly can't lose PtL, nor Vader's ATC, etc.
I suggest that rather than bicker, we start a campaign to make 101pts the new X wing standard.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
Riquende wrote: I used to run SD constantly, but kept finding myself out of arcs after my first action.
Have fun with TLTs.
Yeah SD doesn't save you from TLT.
Being at range 1 is the only thing that saves you from TLT
Stealth+Autothrusters+Good Maneuvering does save you from TLT's. A 3-die attack averages 1.5 hits, same as a 4-die evade. Normally, the problem is that you run out of tokens before the 2-4 TLT boats. Autothrusters changes this, so you are now averaging better than the attackers dice. Without stealth, you only average 1.125 evades+Autothrusters. You are much more likely to get smacked. Is it perfect? No. TLT's turn the game into a die-rolling experience, but stealth helps by giving you more dice.
Okay so what happens when one of those Y-Wings is Kavil? Now every time your autothrusters is triggering, so is his pilot ability. Granting him an extra attack die on both attacks.
Unless of course you're at range 1 of him and he can't shoot you.
Good. I'm only fighting 3 Y-wings.
And a Bugzapper Z95 which does damage to your precious ace without even rolling dice.
Good thing I'm not at range 1 then.
Of course. Fly around at range band 3 relying on your autothrusters to protect your stealth device to protect you when you don't get agility range bonuses against double 4 dice attacks. Kavil would be happy to plink your stealth device off and let his buddies shred you while you struggle to scratch the paint on a Y-Wing.
I don't think you realize a couple things here.
1) I'm not at range 3- I'm out of arc, so autothrusters will always trigger, without giving you a range bonus.
2) I'm not ruling out range 1, except vs the Headhunter. I'm just saying that it's not the only defense vs TLT's.
3) I will have tokens to help me dodge vs Kavil, since he will be the first guy shooting at me. This means Focus and Evade minimum, and double-focus if we are using the situation described by Riquende (Get out of arc on first action). Baring terrible luck, Kavil will not touch me.
I don't think you realize you're defending twin laser turrets and saying that interceptors can rely on their green dice and two, maybe three, tokens to defend themselves. And that the difference between living and dying is a 3 point upgrade that only adds one green die and does nothing as soon as you get hit once. Which you will be after the first two Y-Wings force you to use up your tokens or be hit anyway, and then the third starts taking hull points.
If you truly believe that four green dice with tokens and a modifier for a blank result is all you need to survive the weight of fire of 3-4 twin laser turrets then by all means, you should be using Whisper with a Flight Instructor and Advanced Cloaking Device.
Your primary weapon is better, your shield/hull ratio is better, you have more total resistance, and you have a systems upgrade slot to take FCS or sensor jammer to better increase your damage or survivability respectively. Not to mention your agility doesn't "break" as soon as you get hit and then you go up in a ball of flames.
So please, using your logic, explain to me why people aren't flocking to the phantom to counter the rampant use of twin laser turrets?
Because Soontir Fel is not played as a TLT counter, but as a very good Ace pilot. For some reason, he is favoured over the Phantom. This may be due to the fact that he is 6 points cheaper than the Phantom. Maybe it's because decloak is harder to pull off than Soontir's action spamming. However, when you want to play Soontir, Stealth Device really helps you survive TLT's.
