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Question: Can you take units that don't require a slot in special detachments that don't have the traditional slot breakdown like a CAD/Allied detachment? For example, could you take a Damocles Command Rhino inside a Gladius Strike Force or could you take a Primaris Psyker inside a Cadian Battlegroup?

The Damocles says "A Damocles Command Vehicle is counted as a 0-1 HQ selection, but does not use up a Force Organization slot (and therefore cannot ever be used to occupy a force's compulsory HQ selection."

The Primaris (and other choices like the Priest and Enginseer) all say "Each Astra Militarum detachment may include 0-3 Primaris Psykers. They do not take up a Force Organization slot, and do not qualify as a mandatory HQ selection."

Since all formations are detachments, I cannot find anything that would preclude one from taking these additional choices once you have filled all the mandatory requirements. What do you guys think?

PanzerLeader wrote:
Question: Can you take units that don't require a slot in special detachments that don't have the traditional slot breakdown like a CAD/Allied detachment? For example, could you take a Damocles Command Rhino inside a Gladius Strike Force or could you take a Primaris Psyker inside a Cadian Battlegroup?

The Damocles says "A Damocles Command Vehicle is counted as a 0-1 HQ selection, but does not use up a Force Organization slot (and therefore cannot ever be used to occupy a force's compulsory HQ selection."

The Primaris (and other choices like the Priest and Enginseer) all say "Each Astra Militarum detachment may include 0-3 Primaris Psykers. They do not take up a Force Organization slot, and do not qualify as a mandatory HQ selection."

Since all formations are detachments, I cannot find anything that would preclude one from taking these additional choices once you have filled all the mandatory requirements. What do you guys think?

Aside from things like Dedicated Transports, which are options of units in the list, slotless units do not get carte blanche to join Formations. Formations and Choice Detachments have very specific lists of units that may be included, and do not use slots. Role Detachments are not so rigid, and use slots to fill their detachments.

But where does it say that? The Primaris has permission to be included in any AM detachment. An AM formation is an AM detachment. Where is the restriction that overrides the codex granted permission?

PanzerLeader wrote:
Question: Can you take units that don't require a slot in special detachments that don't have the traditional slot breakdown like a CAD/Allied detachment? For example, could you take a Damocles Command Rhino inside a Gladius Strike Force or could you take a Primaris Psyker inside a Cadian Battlegroup?

The Damocles says "A Damocles Command Vehicle is counted as a 0-1 HQ selection, but does not use up a Force Organization slot (and therefore cannot ever be used to occupy a force's compulsory HQ selection."

The Primaris (and other choices like the Priest and Enginseer) all say "Each Astra Militarum detachment may include 0-3 Primaris Psykers. They do not take up a Force Organization slot, and do not qualify as a mandatory HQ selection."

Since all formations are detachments, I cannot find anything that would preclude one from taking these additional choices once you have filled all the mandatory requirements. What do you guys think?

Depends on the individual unit. The Primaris Psykers have explicit permission to join an Astra Militarum detachment. Astra Militarum formations ARE Astra Militarum detachments, so you should be able to include 0-3 Primaris Psykers in each formation. Not taking up a Force Org slot is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant given that formations don't have Force Org Charts.

The Damocles Command Vehicle is a little different. It doesn't have blanket permission to join a Space Marines detachment. Instead, we're told that it's an HQ choice that can't be used to occupy a force's (interpreting as detachment's) compulsory HQ selection. In other words, you can only add one to fill a non-compulsory HQ selection. Formations will never have a non-compulsory HQ selection. Typically, you'll need a non-formation detachment with a Force Org Chart that has at least one non-compulsory HQ choice.

 Kriswall wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Question: Can you take units that don't require a slot in special detachments that don't have the traditional slot breakdown like a CAD/Allied detachment? For example, could you take a Damocles Command Rhino inside a Gladius Strike Force or could you take a Primaris Psyker inside a Cadian Battlegroup?

The Damocles says "A Damocles Command Vehicle is counted as a 0-1 HQ selection, but does not use up a Force Organization slot (and therefore cannot ever be used to occupy a force's compulsory HQ selection."

The Primaris (and other choices like the Priest and Enginseer) all say "Each Astra Militarum detachment may include 0-3 Primaris Psykers. They do not take up a Force Organization slot, and do not qualify as a mandatory HQ selection."

Since all formations are detachments, I cannot find anything that would preclude one from taking these additional choices once you have filled all the mandatory requirements. What do you guys think?

Depends on the individual unit. The Primaris Psykers have explicit permission to join an Astra Militarum detachment. Astra Militarum formations ARE Astra Militarum detachments, so you should be able to include 0-3 Primaris Psykers in each formation. Not taking up a Force Org slot is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant given that formations don't have Force Org Charts.

The Damocles Command Vehicle is a little different. It doesn't have blanket permission to join a Space Marines detachment. Instead, we're told that it's an HQ choice that can't be used to occupy a force's (interpreting as detachment's) compulsory HQ selection. In other words, you can only add one to fill a non-compulsory HQ selection. Formations will never have a non-compulsory HQ selection. Typically, you'll need a non-formation detachment with a Force Org Chart that has at least one non-compulsory HQ choice.

So the Damocles specifically does not use up any slot. You could actually have 3 HQs in a CAD this way (i.e. Chaplain, Libby, Damocles). It then further specifies that because it does not use up a slot, it cannot be counted as a mandatory selection. This is what makes it ambiguous. A Demi-Company, for example, requires 1 HQ slot and then specifies that it must be a Captain or Chaplain. Could you then add the slotless Damocles?

I agree with your reading on the AM psykers.

Do you have a slot to add them to? No. Then you may not add them

The slot is the permission to,take a unit with that battlefield role. You then have a further rulers that if you take X unit it doesn't use that slot position.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do you have a slot to add them to? No. Then you may not add them

The slot is the permission to,take a unit with that battlefield role. You then have a further rulers that if you take X unit it doesn't use that slot position.

The AM codex specifically allows 0-3 psykers in any detachment. What requires them to be specifically be listed in every detachment since they already have the general permission?

PanzerLeader wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do you have a slot to add them to? No. Then you may not add them

The slot is the permission to,take a unit with that battlefield role. You then have a further rulers that if you take X unit it doesn't use that slot position.

The AM codex specifically allows 0-3 psykers in any detachment. What requires them to be specifically be listed in every detachment since they already have the general permission?

Formation Unit Lists?

Charistoph wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do you have a slot to add them to? No. Then you may not add them

The slot is the permission to,take a unit with that battlefield role. You then have a further rulers that if you take X unit it doesn't use that slot position.

The AM codex specifically allows 0-3 psykers in any detachment. What requires them to be specifically be listed in every detachment since they already have the general permission?

Formation Unit Lists?

Primaris Psyker Permission is a more specific/advanced permission than the general rules for Formations. Specific/advanced trumps general. People often mistakenly refer to this as "Codex beats BRB".

 Kriswall wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do you have a slot to add them to? No. Then you may not add them

The slot is the permission to,take a unit with that battlefield role. You then have a further rulers that if you take X unit it doesn't use that slot position.

The AM codex specifically allows 0-3 psykers in any detachment. What requires them to be specifically be listed in every detachment since they already have the general permission?

Formation Unit Lists?

Primaris Psyker Permission is a more specific/advanced permission than the general rules for Formations. Specific/advanced trumps general. People often mistakenly refer to this as "Codex beats BRB".

Formation Unit Lists are the same level of Advanced as any Special Rule associated with a unit. The rule is "Basic vs Advanced". They are also quite specific in what can be included, while Psyker in question is just a general permission.

So your any detachment is more specific than a very specific listing of the exact units that may be taken? I doubt that, somewhat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So your any detachment is more specific than a very specific listing of the exact units that may be taken? I doubt that, somewhat.

By that logic, you do not have permission to take the Primaris Psyker in a CAD either. A CAD may only include 1-2 HQ, 2-6 Troops, and 0-3 each of Elites, Heavy Support and Fast Attack. The CAD's "unit listing" does not give you specific permission to take a Psyker since he can't fit into any of the listed slots. For the Psyker to be taken at all, the words "Any detachment" must mean that he can be taken in any detachment, including formations.

A) the AM codex was written when there were only Primary and Allied detachments.

B) only detachments that use a FOC have slots, everything else has units(those units do retain their battlefield role)

C) DTs and a few other units can be reached in a formation or Army selection detatchment only if the unit listed also geants access to the other unit.(easiest example is a DT which is not listed in a formation but is an option in the unit entry that is listed; Commissars, priests and psykers require you to look at their own unit entries to find allowance to take them, a permission formations do not grant)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
A) the AM codex was written when there were only Primary and Allied detachments.

B) only detachments that use a FOC have slots, everything else has units(those units do retain their battlefield role)

C) DTs and a few other units can be reached in a formation or Army selection detatchment only if the unit listed also geants access to the other unit.(easiest example is a DT which is not listed in a formation but is an option in the unit entry that is listed; Commissars, priests and psykers require you to look at their own unit entries to find allowance to take them, a permission formations do not grant)

Is an AM formation also simultaneously an AM detachment? Because if so, I have a specific rule to cite that gives me permission to include Commissars, Priests, and Psykers inside that detachment. The AM codex was written with 7th edition in mind. It dropped a week before the new rules and formations (including the a formation is a special detachment language) existed when it was published. Can you cite a specific rule that would override the permission to include the Psyker? So far there has only been a general "but they aren't listed" argument which ignores the "you don't need to list a unit that you always have permission to include" counter.

Yeah the AM guys have specific permission to be taken in ANY AM detachment so the Formation would have to explicitly restrict that permission to deny it. The Damocles requires a HQ slot Formations don't have Battlefield Role based slots, the Demi Company does not require 1 HQ, it requires a Captain or a Chaplain. If the Chaplain datasheet was updated to be an Elite for example he could still be taken in a Demi Company.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So your any detachment is more specific than a very specific listing of the exact units that may be taken? I doubt that, somewhat.

Either the Formation datasheet or the unit datasheet is more specific. If it's the Formation, then CADs do not have permission to take Primaris Psykers. If it's the unit datasheet, then any formation may take up to three additional Primaris Psykers.

That being said, I'm 99% sure that that's not the intention and I'm not going to add additional Primaris Psykers to the Psycana formation. Would be fun though, the Formation Special Rules should apply to them, too.

nekooni wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So your any detachment is more specific than a very specific listing of the exact units that may be taken? I doubt that, somewhat.

Either the Formation datasheet or the unit datasheet is more specific. If it's the Formation, then CADs do not have permission to take Primaris Psykers. If it's the unit datasheet, then any formation may take up to three additional Primaris Psykers.

That being said, I'm 99% sure that that's not the intention and I'm not going to add additional Primaris Psykers to the Psycana formation. Would be fun though, the Formation Special Rules should apply to them, too.

Read the rules for that Formation. They reference THE Primaris Psyker and not A Primaris Psyker. You could add 3, sure, but I don't think the rules would do anything for them.

 Kriswall wrote:

nekooni wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So your any detachment is more specific than a very specific listing of the exact units that may be taken? I doubt that, somewhat.

Either the Formation datasheet or the unit datasheet is more specific. If it's the Formation, then CADs do not have permission to take Primaris Psykers. If it's the unit datasheet, then any formation may take up to three additional Primaris Psykers.

That being said, I'm 99% sure that that's not the intention and I'm not going to add additional Primaris Psykers to the Psycana formation. Would be fun though, the Formation Special Rules should apply to them, too.

Read the rules for that Formation. They reference THE Primaris Psyker and not A Primaris Psyker. You could add 3, sure, but I don't think the rules would do anything for them.

That's why I used "should" instead of "will" - I wasn't sure of the exact wording. Thanks for the clarification

I very quickly skimmed through the rules for the various AM Formations. I don't think MOST of them will do anything for attached Primaris Psykers. MOST of them reference models specifically. I.e., it's not "models from this Formation"... it's "Ogryn Squads from this Formation" in most cases.

So, can you add Primaris Psykers to pretty much any AM detachment/formation? Sure. Are you granting said Psykers any earth shattering rules in doing so? Doesn't look like it.

Full disclosure... I don't play AM and might have missed some Formations.

You have a specific rule in a unit entry you are not allowed to access.

It is basically the same as saying your vet sgt can issue orders because the company commander has the voice of command special rule.

Or that you can take a chimera for your techpriest in an armored company formation because it is listed as a dedicated transport in the armylist(techpreists do not have a dt option).

Formations list exactly which unit entries you are allowed to look at, the only other entries allowed are those accessed via the specified entries.

Kriwall: an "ogryn unit from this detachment" is still an ogryn unit from that detachment when you attach an IC(like the primaris) to it; even if that IC comes from a different detachment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You have a specific rule in a unit entry you are not allowed to access.

It is basically the same as saying your vet sgt can issue orders because the company commander has the voice of command special rule.

Or that you can take a chimera for your techpriest in an armored company formation because it is listed as a dedicated transport in the armylist(techpreists do not have a dt option).

Formations list exactly which unit entries you are allowed to look at, the only other entries allowed are those accessed via the specified entries.

Kriwall: an "ogryn unit from this detachment" is still an ogryn unit from that detachment when you attach an IC(like the primaris) to it; even if that IC comes from a different detachment.

Nope the AM codex is clear and nothing restricts what rules you can and can't read. It states you can take 0-3 Primaris for each AM detachment. The Formations ARE AM detachments, now show the restriction or concede.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Kriwall: an "ogryn unit from this detachment" is still an ogryn unit from that detachment when you attach an IC(like the primaris) to it; even if that IC comes from a different detachment.

I believe he was referring to adding the psyker to the formation (the psyker is one of the units that do not take up a Force Organization chart slot) and not actually joining them to a unit in the formation.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Kriwall: an "ogryn unit from this detachment" is still an ogryn unit from that detachment when you attach an IC(like the primaris) to it; even if that IC comes from a different detachment.

I believe he was referring to adding the psyker to the formation (the psyker is one of the units that do not take up a Force Organization chart slot) and not actually joining them to a unit in the formation.

I was indeed. I wasn't talking IC rules at all. That's a different debate and has no place in this thread.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You have a specific rule in a unit entry you are not allowed to access.

It is basically the same as saying your vet sgt can issue orders because the company commander has the voice of command special rule.

Or that you can take a chimera for your techpriest in an armored company formation because it is listed as a dedicated transport in the armylist(techpreists do not have a dt option).

Formations list exactly which unit entries you are allowed to look at, the only other entries allowed are those accessed via the specified entries.

Kriwall: an "ogryn unit from this detachment" is still an ogryn unit from that detachment when you attach an IC(like the primaris) to it; even if that IC comes from a different detachment.

Nope the AM codex is clear and nothing restricts what rules you can and can't read. It states you can take 0-3 Primaris for each AM detachment. The Formations ARE AM detachments, now show the restriction or concede.

Except the Formations rules in the brb. A formation tells you which unit entries are in the formation.

Is the a primaris listed in the emperor's wrath formation?

If not then that entry, and its rules of inclusion cannot be applied to the formation.

The Chimera for the Company command squad is not listed in the entrues because the entry for the company command squad lists it as an option. The restrictions for the formation then tell you that you must take that option, which of course, unlocks the chimera entry.

Similarly you cannot take Creed and/or Kell in the emperor's wrath formation because they are separate unit entries that themselves specify they may be taken as upgrades to the company command squad.

You can always take pask in any formation allowing a tank commander because his entry is an upgrade option for the tank commander listed in the tank commander entry.

This is not hard to follow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Kriswall; I wasn't starting any debate about ICs, just stating that the ogryn unit is always the ogryn unit. There is no debate on that.

So it matters where rules are written not what they say? Have you got a quote to back up your claims?

Brb, choosing your army, detachments, formations, first paragraph, second to last sentence(the rules): "Instead of including a Force Organization Chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along
with any special rules that those units gain."

Now, first, we have that it is not using a Force Organization Chart; that is the only place in the rules that have "slots"(i.e.: HQ slots, that the Primaris rules you are referencing don't take up.)

Second, the rules you are referencing also state that the Primaris doesn't fulfill the mandatory HQ selection(in the same sentence that tells you it doesn't fill a Slot); well the last sentence in the above rules explains that units in the formation retain their battlefield role; so if that primaris rule is always in effect where you can add him to any detachments then he also never counts as a mandatory selection and therefore you cannot legally make the psyker formation(same goes for any formation that requires an enginseer, or a commissar).

Third: it says right there in that quote that the formations list the unit entries(not just units or whatnot), is the primaris unit entry on the emperor's wrath list? No. If it is not on the list, then its entry(and its entries rules) have no bearing on the formation. DTs, sevitors, Pask, the elements of a platoon, all those entries have access granted by an entry that is on the list; you could view them as something like "sub-entries" because the listed entry lets you take those entries within the listed entry's rules or options.

Fourth; the AM codex was written in 6th. In 6th you had 2 detachment types: Standard(or Primary), which was a CAD, and Allied. There were a very few other detachments that came from supplements, but they were also FOC detachments and generally replaced the standard. The rules you are referencing are, themselves, only referencing FOC detachments because that is all there were.

Edit: formatting to break between points instead of wall-o-text.

There is so much wrong with your post that I don't know where to start. Instead...

The rules clearly and unambiguously allow you to add 0-3 Primaris Psykers to any AM detachment. Formations are detachments, so you can add 0-3 Primaris Psykers to any AM Formation. The Primaris Psykers rules are more advanced than the basic BRB rules surrounding Formations. We all know that advanced trumps basic. Also, this isn't 6th edition, so referencing it over and over isn't achieving much.

1) The 0-3 Primaris etc cares not for slots so not relevant.

2) There is no mandatory HQ slot in those formations so the fact the Primaris etc can't fulfil it is irrelevant.

3) Cool you have general permission to take the units listed on a formation and specific permission to add 0-3 Primaris etc to that list. No contradiction and if there was codex trumps rulebook, so either way Primaris etc is allowed. Just like DTs they are extra units that you can take whenever you take their parent unit, Primaris is the same an extra unit you are allowed whenever you have an AM detachment.

4) Yes edition changes change how rules interact. Yes the AM codex was written for 6th, things change. When 6th Ed came out did you assume Nob Bikerz were still instant deathed by S8 as they were when their codex was written?

1) "They do not take up a Force Organization Slot, and do not Qualify as a mandatory HQ selection."
-Part of the 0-3 rule. Pretty sure slots are relevant to the rule since they are part of it.

2) See above: not HQ Slot, HQ selection. Selection is undefined, if you want to take a 6th edition detachment rule and apply it to 7tg edituin changed detachments; then I am going to enforce the difference between Slot and Selection. As Formations are made of Mandatory unit entries, and you it entries are selections from your armylist, then selecting the primaris or enginseer in the formations that require them do not count because of the same rule that lets you take the primaris in the Emperor's wrath formation.

3) Right, right. General permission to select an army, specific permission for what goes into each detachment, even more specific permission for what goes into a specific formation. The formation rules in general are already more specific than FOC army selection method rules. Each Formation itself is more specific than the general rules for formations. As far as Codex trumps rulebook: you have a newer supplement that is bringing you these formations, that alone should trump codex but since we do not have a priority list for warzone and supplement lists, I guess that none of these formations, warlord traits, wargear lists, etc are valid at all for anyone, huh? I mean Codex trumps all, so raven guard, white scars, ad mech, and anyone who didn't buy the new tau dex can all go suck an egg(also those IG formations are useless since they are not in the codex). I me aa n the codex is clearly the most specific thing, right?

4) no. Because I read the rulebook.

4) Then try the same approach here...

1) They don't take up HQ slots the Formation has no HQ slots. Why are HQ slots relevant? You can 0-3 per AM detachment prove these Formations aren't AM detachments.

2) sorry not sure what you're getting at? There is no mandatory HQ Slot or indeed any HQ slots at all in the formations. So please show why HQ slots are relevant?

3) Formations and detachments slots never interact so not sure what you're talking about. The Primaris rule is more specific because it specifies ANY AM DETACHMENT, do the formation explicitly state you can not select a Primaris? Remembering omission is always less specific. So page a paragraph as to where these formations say you CAN'T take the 0-3 Primaris.