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Nerak - let me get this straight. Are you promoting the idea that WH40K psykers have an unusually high midichlorian count?

that sounds like heresy to me. I would never....

Change where you are talking about the IoM being a huge force of 'light' to that of dark (let alone chaos) then I sort of get your jist.

Though in that case, the Sith would go bat as someone has evidently broken the law of two, and that just wouldn't be cricket.

 dusara217 wrote:
Orks loot the technology of their foes, and those ships that are purely of Ork designed do, in fact, have shielding (consult Battlefleet Gothic for reference), Tyranids have powerful shielding, as well. Standard weaponry has never stated to be exterminatus-level weaponry, there are weapons specifically designated as exterminatus weapons, the fact that Lance batteries and Nova Cannons can crack open a planet after a few months of shelling doesn't really say much, all things considered. Even with an entire battlefleet's combined wrath (Sanguinius's entire Blood Angels fleet), it took several minutes to break open the planet, and that's with thousands upon thousands of ships all firing upon said planet.

It just depends which part of canon you happen to be quoting. There are portions of Black Library books that "describe" Battlecruisers scouring continents off planets in a few salvos and are oft quoted as justification for declaring curb-stomp by 40k as the upper end of 40k calculated firepower (in the magnitude of the low 100's petaton yield). Everything just scales up from there... void shields can absorb that level of firepower and so-on. A more measured approach is to consider the yield to be in the low 10's gigaton yield, which provides for the cratering effect that your quote describes. This can be further collaborated by calcs showing that a gun firing a 10 ton projectile at something like. 0.3C gives you roughly 30GT. (Batteries probably being closer to .25C w/ 0.5ton projectiles for 0.7GT a shot.

This is still problematic when you consider or Orks and Tyranids. For Orks, its one thing for looted equipment, but it is implicitly understood that home grown Ork teknologie is also comparable in performance: This suggests that either the Orks are genius level intellects who can create equivalent guns out of garbage, or that their psychic field is a "get out of jail free" card to hand-wave away any and all discrepancies. Their scrap built shielding and armor also needs to be on par to resist attacks in the 10's, possibly up to 100 gigatons.



Tyranids are equally problematic since their primary ranged attacks are bio-projectiles and bio-plasma. Bio plasma in particular is a real issue if forced to follow the laws of physics as its going to lose potency over distance. This makes things even crazier if you consider that to get a 10's GT rating, the power generation at source must be staggering. To reach the same yields the bio projectiles also need to be some significant percentage of light speed and the bio armor / shielding needs to be able to resist attacks in the 10's to 100's gigatons. Then we have the issue with the Tyranid melee ships. Assuming its claw is... I dunno... 1 million tons, it would have to swing it at 0.01C (around 3000km/s) to get into the 20 GT range... On top of that, the claw would have to be more durable than the armor of the ship it is attacking, so that it's claw doesn't BREAK AGAINST THE SHIP ARMOR... now we're back to raising the bar for Tyranid armor an order of magnitude above gun yields causing a circular problem. Possible? Sure... Implausible... definitely.

Thanks to all who have posted actual technical / logistical problems with the weaponized rock idea instead of immediately disallowing it for not coming from canon.

 keezus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Orks loot the technology of their foes, and those ships that are purely of Ork designed do, in fact, have shielding (consult Battlefleet Gothic for reference), Tyranids have powerful shielding, as well. Standard weaponry has never stated to be exterminatus-level weaponry, there are weapons specifically designated as exterminatus weapons, the fact that Lance batteries and Nova Cannons can crack open a planet after a few months of shelling doesn't really say much, all things considered. Even with an entire battlefleet's combined wrath (Sanguinius's entire Blood Angels fleet), it took several minutes to break open the planet, and that's with thousands upon thousands of ships all firing upon said planet.

It just depends which part of canon you happen to be quoting. There are portions of Black Library books that "describe" Battlecruisers scouring continents off planets in a few salvos and are oft quoted as justification for declaring curb-stomp by 40k as the upper end of 40k calculated firepower (in the magnitude of the low 100's petaton yield). Everything just scales up from there... void shields can absorb that level of firepower and so-on. A more measured approach is to consider the yield to be in the low 10's gigaton yield, which provides for the cratering effect that your quote describes. This can be further collaborated by calcs showing that a gun firing a 10 ton projectile at something like. 0.3C gives you roughly 30GT. (Batteries probably being closer to .25C w/ 0.5ton projectiles for 0.7GT a shot.

Scouring a continent =/= destroying a planet. When the Covenant, in Halo, glass a planet, the planet is not destroyed, it's simply rendered lifeless and has its entire surface reshaped. On the same hand, Imperial Battlecruisers scouring continents are not destroying a planet with just a few salvos, they are reshaping its surface. Also, I'd rather not get into anything science-related with Void Shields, as they make very little sense (if it sends everything coming towards it into the Warp, then how can it break, in the first place?).

This is still problematic when you consider or Orks and Tyranids. For Orks, its one thing for looted equipment, but it is implicitly understood that home grown Ork teknologie is also comparable in performance: This suggests that either the Orks are genius level intellects who can create equivalent guns out of garbage, or that their psychic field is a "get out of jail free" card to hand-wave away any and all discrepancies. Their scrap built shielding and armor also needs to be on par to resist attacks in the 10's, possibly up to 100 gigatons.

Ghazkull Thraka has a beyond genius-level intellect. He is a battlefield commander supreme, with a powerful mind. His human equivalent, Marneus Calgar, is similar. In the same vein, a Mekboy could not be a Mekboy if he wasn't also a genius. You can't reverse engineer advanced alien technology in a few months and not be a genius. You can't construct a working Void craft out of junk and scrap metal and not be a genius. Orks have never been stated to be any less intelligent than humans, they're just so much more aggressive that intelligence tends to fly out the window for most grunts.

Spoiler:

[i]Gunz: Above all weapons Ork favour massive shell-hurling macrocannons grouped together in batteries. One battery comprises any number of different types of weapons, but most fire projectiles of one sort or another. Some of them are made from scrap while others are 'improved' versions of looted Imperial macrobatteries. Ork inclination towards firepower means that any gap in the haphazard armour plating is filled with a gun. Usually referred to simply as Gunz these Ork macrobatteries fire volley after volley of solid shot and explosive shells, overwhelming an enemy in a torrent of destruction. However, they don't always work as intended and are prone to misfires and jamming. They may also be deactivated for repairs or 'improvements' by Ork Mekboy. Overall, these weapons are unpredictable but most of the time are frighteningly effective.

Tyranids are equally problematic since their primary ranged attacks are bio-projectiles and bio-plasma. Bio plasma in particular is a real issue if forced to follow the laws of physics as its going to lose potency over distance. This makes things even crazier if you consider that to get a 10's GT rating, the power generation at source must be staggering. To reach the same yields the bio projectiles also need to be some significant percentage of light speed and the bio armor / shielding needs to be able to resist attacks in the 10's to 100's gigatons. Then we have the issue with the Tyranid melee ships. Assuming its claw is... I dunno... 1 million tons, it would have to swing it at 0.01C (around 3000km/s) to get into the 20 GT range... On top of that, the claw would have to be more durable than the armor of the ship it is attacking, so that it's claw doesn't BREAK AGAINST THE SHIP ARMOR... now we're back to raising the bar for Tyranid armor an order of magnitude above gun yields causing a circular problem. Possible? Sure... Implausible... definitely.

Bio Plasma would be a shorter ranged attack used for virtual knife-fighting (something 'nids seem to prefer doing), their other projectile weapons make just as much sense as macrocannons. Also, melee craft would be shearing off relatively small amounts of armour with every hit, you can't jsut pierce through several dozen meters of armour plating in one go.

Scouring a continent =/= destroying a planet. When the Covenant, in Halo, glass a planet, the planet is not destroyed, it's simply rendered lifeless and has its entire surface reshaped. On the same hand, Imperial Battlecruisers scouring continents are not destroying a planet with just a few salvos, they are reshaping its surface. Also, I'd rather not get into anything science-related with Void Shields, as they make very little sense (if it sends everything coming towards it into the Warp, then how can it break, in the first place?).

Because it takes energy to teleport something so the shield generators are constantly working to open those void shields to. So the more energy and the more objects thrown at these shields the more power that will be used and the higher the cost it will have.

So no it is not impenterable.

It takes alot of fire power to get through it though.

Are you promoting the idea that WH40K psykers have an unusually high midichlorian count?

Brilliant

 Ratius wrote:

Are you promoting the idea that WH40K psykers have an unusually high midichlorian count?

Brilliant

YES YESSSSS

I just picture it now Grey Knight aspiriants being picked up by jedi, only to get slaughtered because of it.

I mean if the star wars did..... well Win. Against a contigent of pyskers. You Know SOMEHOW. What would they do if there were pyskers? Would they execute them like jedi?

Or would the jedi outcasts take them in?

I know that an alpha psyker would devastate the entirety of the empire with a single thought.) but the average psyker would be comparable to Anakin in terms of power.

 dusara217 wrote:
Scouring a continent =/= destroying a planet. When the Covenant, in Halo, glass a planet, the planet is not destroyed, it's simply rendered lifeless and has its entire surface reshaped. On the same hand, Imperial Battlecruisers scouring continents are not destroying a planet with just a few salvos, they are reshaping its surface. Also, I'd rather not get into anything science-related with Void Shields, as they make very little sense (if it sends everything coming towards it into the Warp, then how can it break, in the first place?).

Can you point out where I suggested that scouring a continent = destroying a planet?

 dusara217 wrote:
Ghazkull Thraka has a beyond genius-level intellect. He is a battlefield commander supreme, with a powerful mind. His human equivalent, Marneus Calgar, is similar. In the same vein, a Mekboy could not be a Mekboy if he wasn't also a genius. You can't reverse engineer advanced alien technology in a few months and not be a genius. You can't construct a working Void craft out of junk and scrap metal and not be a genius. Orks have never been stated to be any less intelligent than humans, they're just so much more aggressive that intelligence tends to fly out the window for most grunts.

Ork meks have genetic/racial technological knowledge. The techpriests can't figure out how their guns work as they are just random parts bolted together. The higher the firepower numbers go, the more nonsensical this becomes without using some "psychic" argument to hand-wave this discrepancy away.

 dusara217 wrote:
Bio Plasma would be a shorter ranged attack used for virtual knife-fighting (something 'nids seem to prefer doing), their other projectile weapons make just as much sense as macrocannons. Also, melee craft would be shearing off relatively small amounts of armour with every hit, you can't jsut pierce through several dozen meters of armour plating in one go.

You are ignoring the problems from order of magnitude attacks. Cumulative damage is only a thing if the initial damage is sufficient to cause damage. Take a tank for example. You could shoot it with small arms (10 000x less powerful than a tank round) all day, and not damage it. You could ram it with a car (somewhere 100x~10x less powerful) and not cause any damage. Ergo, having weapons that are 100s or 1000's times more powerful, unless they have some exotic effect (acid, moelcule flaying, warp rift etc), mere projectiles and energy at those levels won't cause cumulative damage in the way that you suggest. On top of that Tyranids are doubly problematic as they use biomechanical means to achieve these same effects, meaning that as an organism, all their power is coming from metabolism and transmitted through their muscles - efficiency loss possibly substantial. The melee types need to be more durable than what they are attacking due to newton's laws thing about "opposite reactions". Damage is a collision is always going to go to the less durable party.

The continent destroying feat suggests firepower in the low 100's petaton range (or something like 0.1 solar outputs needed per shot!). GW canon (space hulk IIRC) places torpedo range in the 5 gigaton range. Clustering all the damage ratings within +/- 10x of this stated yield would fix a lot of the most egregious discrepancies, but not all.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The one thing that keeps echoing in my mind with every post i read in this thread is Why?

Why would the two be fighting? What benefit would be gained. With everything in the Warhammer galaxy, that is a door best left welded and painted shut buy the SW Empire. The only scenario that makes any sense would be the Imperium fleeing into the SW galaxy to escape their own. Any other scenario, the costs and problems presents make a war unfeasible to sustain for any length of time, and would outweigh any benefit categorically. I think this is a valid question, because the goals of each faction would dictate is target, which would predict success. Neither could effectively conquer the other, the SW empire is just too small, force wise, to contend with the IOM, and the IOM lacks the ability, need, or forces to execute a sustained conflict on an extra galactic level, while maintaining the stated peace in their own galaxy. Even fanatical Imperial creed nonsense doesn't stand up to this, because the other galaxy is outside of the light of the Astronomicon. Warp travel wouldn't be possible outside of the IOM galaxy, and the emperor's presence couldn't be felt there. the SW empire would take one look at the 40k milky way and take a hard pass.

To be fair, we assume Hyperspace exists in the IOM's galaxy and the Warp exists in the Empire's galaxy. Otherwise, what's the point?

I'm curious where Keezuz gets the idea that objects leaving hyperspace retain any kind of relativistic velocity. That is not what we saw in the movies.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:
The one thing that keeps echoing in my mind with every post i read in this thread is Why?

Why would the two be fighting? What benefit would be gained. With everything in the Warhammer galaxy, that is a door best left welded and painted shut buy the SW Empire. The only scenario that makes any sense would be the Imperium fleeing into the SW galaxy to escape their own. Any other scenario, the costs and problems presents make a war unfeasible to sustain for any length of time, and would outweigh any benefit categorically. I think this is a valid question, because the goals of each faction would dictate is target, which would predict success. Neither could effectively conquer the other, the SW empire is just too small, force wise, to contend with the IOM, and the IOM lacks the ability, need, or forces to execute a sustained conflict on an extra galactic level, while maintaining the stated peace in their own galaxy. Even fanatical Imperial creed nonsense doesn't stand up to this, because the other galaxy is outside of the light of the Astronomicon. Warp travel wouldn't be possible outside of the IOM galaxy, and the emperor's presence couldn't be felt there. the SW empire would take one look at the 40k milky way and take a hard pass.

To be fair, we assume Hyperspace exists in the IOM's galaxy and the Warp exists in the Empire's galaxy. Otherwise, what's the point?

I'm curious where Keezuz gets the idea that objects leaving hyperspace retain any kind of relativistic velocity. That is not what we saw in the movies.

Physics. Travelling at a velocity faster than light and then suddenly slowing to jet fighter speeds would have massive force acting on the ship that would tear it apart so it must have huge velocity. That's not to say it can't turn in time to avoid things but that was a hard pullup for the Falcon.

Also, if you want to discard physics in favour of canonised handwavium, just remember the Imperium has to discount their most powerful faction. Also remember, in the films, the most impressive Force acts performed were; Yoda lifting an 1 man attack craft; Yoda absorbing Dooku's lightning with ease; and Kylo Ren . The lifting of a ship, along with things like heightened reactions, prescient, lightning bolts and mind control are standard stuff for Psykers. Stopping a bolt of energy midair and holding it is pretty impressive, but then you have Beta and Alpha psykers crushing battle tanks, flying through space and karate chopping capital ships, and other equally rediculous stuff.

Have you read the "canon" explanation of hyperspace? Ships do not accelerate or decelerate at all, they flip into tachyon-verse mode and out of it. In fact, the faster a ship travels in hyperspace, the slower it will be going when it flips back into normal matter. Even the old fanon "it's another dimension" explanation would prevent ships from having to accelerate or decelerate.

What advantage would the IOM lose?

 keezus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Scouring a continent =/= destroying a planet. When the Covenant, in Halo, glass a planet, the planet is not destroyed, it's simply rendered lifeless and has its entire surface reshaped. On the same hand, Imperial Battlecruisers scouring continents are not destroying a planet with just a few salvos, they are reshaping its surface. Also, I'd rather not get into anything science-related with Void Shields, as they make very little sense (if it sends everything coming towards it into the Warp, then how can it break, in the first place?).

Can you point out where I suggested that scouring a continent = destroying a planet?
My apologies, I was mistaking that with your earlier post talking about why IoM would even want Exterminatus weapons.

 dusara217 wrote:
Ghazkull Thraka has a beyond genius-level intellect. He is a battlefield commander supreme, with a powerful mind. His human equivalent, Marneus Calgar, is similar. In the same vein, a Mekboy could not be a Mekboy if he wasn't also a genius. You can't reverse engineer advanced alien technology in a few months and not be a genius. You can't construct a working Void craft out of junk and scrap metal and not be a genius. Orks have never been stated to be any less intelligent than humans, they're just so much more aggressive that intelligence tends to fly out the window for most grunts.

Ork meks have genetic/racial technological knowledge. The techpriests can't figure out how their guns work as they are just random parts bolted together. The higher the firepower numbers go, the more nonsensical this becomes without using some "psychic" argument to hand-wave this discrepancy away.
Yes, they have Ork tech hardwired into their DNA. Yet they also manage to reverse engineer every salvagable piece of technology they lay their eyes on. Becaaauuse.... space magic? How about them actually having the intelligence necesary to do so?

 dusara217 wrote:
Bio Plasma would be a shorter ranged attack used for virtual knife-fighting (something 'nids seem to prefer doing), their other projectile weapons make just as much sense as macrocannons. Also, melee craft would be shearing off relatively small amounts of armour with every hit, you can't jsut pierce through several dozen meters of armour plating in one go.

You are ignoring the problems from order of magnitude attacks. Cumulative damage is only a thing if the initial damage is sufficient to cause damage. Take a tank for example. You could shoot it with small arms (10 000x less powerful than a tank round) all day, and not damage it. You could ram it with a car (somewhere 100x~10x less powerful) and not cause any damage. Ergo, having weapons that are 100s or 1000's times more powerful, unless they have some exotic effect (acid, moelcule flaying, warp rift etc), mere projectiles and energy at those levels won't cause cumulative damage in the way that you suggest. On top of that Tyranids are doubly problematic as they use biomechanical means to achieve these same effects, meaning that as an organism, all their power is coming from metabolism and transmitted through their muscles - efficiency loss possibly substantial. The melee types need to be more durable than what they are attacking due to newton's laws thing about "opposite reactions". Damage is a collision is always going to go to the less durable party.

The continent destroying feat suggests firepower in the low 100's petaton range (or something like 0.1 solar outputs needed per shot!). GW canon (space hulk IIRC) places torpedo range in the 5 gigaton range. Clustering all the damage ratings within +/- 10x of this stated yield would fix a lot of the most egregious discrepancies, but not all.

commander dante wrote:
Well most of the Star Wars Expanded Universe has been considered non-canon so it does tip the balance A LOT

I have to give it to 40k tho, one reason is the Ark Mechanica (Mechanicus?)
The Ark mechanica is a Ship that is CAPABLE OF TELEPORTING ENEMY SHIPS THOUGH TIME IF IT MISSES SO THE WEAPONS WILL HIT IT

Where's the source on this?

SideSwipe wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Well most of the Star Wars Expanded Universe has been considered non-canon so it does tip the balance A LOT

I have to give it to 40k tho, one reason is the Ark Mechanica (Mechanicus?)
The Ark mechanica is a Ship that is CAPABLE OF TELEPORTING ENEMY SHIPS THOUGH TIME IF IT MISSES SO THE WEAPONS WILL HIT IT

Where's the source on this?

Well he's slightly missed what was going on in that fluff.

Its about the Sperenza. An ancient Ark Mechanicus which has a weapon that temporarily creates a black hole at a target point. The black hole caused some temporal distortions, which resulted in an Eldar ship going back in time by half a second and colliding with itself.

The book is the Priests of Mars novel, its about an Explorator fleet heading beyond the Ghoul Stars IIRC.

 dusara217 wrote:
Yes, they have Ork tech hardwired into their DNA. Yet they also manage to reverse engineer every salvagable piece of technology they lay their eyes on. Becaaauuse.... space magic? How about them actually having the intelligence necesary to do so?

Intelligence? Is there any evidence that Ork repairs to Imperial technology restore it to a semblance of its original STC? Orks salvage everything they can get their hands on? Yes. Reverse engineer? Sure - enough to use it, but not enough to replicate it. Since Ork guns/engines are basically random parts in a box (somehow providing necessary function), any IoM salvage is likely repaired by adding random parts in a box to any broken areas to restore function. If you have evidence of Orks constructing Imperial technology according to STC, please provide a citation. If they could truly reverse engineer, they would buiid the higher end IoM guns (novacannon etc) that are better than Ork guns. (What Mek wouldn't want more boom and dakka on their ship!) The fact that they do not suggests that IoM salvage is used either because it saves construction time, or it scratches some sort of itch in the Mek's brain (i.e. fun to tinker with, status etc).

IRT dropping out of hyperspace and still moving very fast? Not really.




Skip ahead to 50s and watch to about 1:05. You can see the jump to, and exit from, hyperspace.

keezus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Yes, they have Ork tech hardwired into their DNA. Yet they also manage to reverse engineer every salvagable piece of technology they lay their eyes on. Becaaauuse.... space magic? How about them actually having the intelligence necesary to do so?

Intelligence? Is there any evidence that Ork repairs to Imperial technology restore it to a semblance of its original STC? Orks salvage everything they can get their hands on? Yes. Reverse engineer? Sure - enough to use it, but not enough to replicate it. Since Ork guns/engines are basically random parts in a box (somehow providing necessary function), any IoM salvage is likely repaired by adding random parts in a box to any broken areas to restore function. If you have evidence of Orks constructing Imperial technology according to STC, please provide a citation. If they could truly reverse engineer, they would buiid the higher end IoM guns (novacannon etc) that are better than Ork guns. (What Mek wouldn't want more boom and dakka on their ship!) The fact that they do not suggests that IoM salvage is used either because it saves construction time, or it scratches some sort of itch in the Mek's brain (i.e. fun to tinker with, status etc).

Really? I can't tell if you're serious or not, because the concept of a being from a completely different species salvaging and reverse-engineer the technology of humanity to the point of producing identical versions of the original piece is just so preposterous. Seriously, are you joking
As for looting Nova Cannons and the like, Orks can apparently loot everything their eyes fall upon. Not to mention the fact that Orks aren't unintelligent. I would give direct quotes but I'm really not in the mood to start combing through books searching for random snippets to show some guy on the internet to prove my point. In my experience, no internet links will ever convince a forum-goer that he's wrong, regardless of how many you provided (I think that I once provided a little over a dozen internet links, ranging from Lexicanum to Warseer threads, stubborn bastard still wouldn't concede defeat, even when he hadn't provided anything to back up his own claims. People are morons.), so I'm not gonna spend any more time searching for the internet to reinforce the two dozen forum-goers whose words back mine up.

 Psienesis wrote:
IRT dropping out of hyperspace and still moving very fast? Not really.

Spoiler:

Skip ahead to 50s and watch to about 1:05. You can see the jump to, and exit from, hyperspace.

This was brought up on P4. That ROTJ clip shows ships exiting at a speed that doesn't seem very fast. I originally posted a clip from A New Hope which seems to show a faster exit speed.

-edit-


Watch the very start of the clip when the Venator exits hyperspace and note how fast the planet fills observation windows... This looks much faster than any of the film versions, and the ship is slowing during that sequence, as the planet seems to cease growing larger just as they cut away.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:
Really? I can't tell if you're serious or not, because the concept of a being from a completely different species salvaging and reverse-engineer the technology of humanity to the point of producing identical versions of the original piece is just so preposterous. Seriously, are you joking
As for looting Nova Cannons and the like, Orks can apparently loot everything their eyes fall upon. Not to mention the fact that Orks aren't unintelligent. I would give direct quotes but I'm really not in the mood to start combing through books searching for random snippets to show some guy on the internet to prove my point. In my experience, no internet links will ever convince a forum-goer that he's wrong, regardless of how many you provided (I think that I once provided a little over a dozen internet links, ranging from Lexicanum to Warseer threads, stubborn bastard still wouldn't concede defeat, even when he hadn't provided anything to back up his own claims. People are morons.), so I'm not gonna spend any more time searching for the internet to reinforce the two dozen forum-goers whose words back mine up.

We're already in agreement. I already conceded that Orks have unparalleled salvage ability. Whether they can build new copies of what they salvage has never been demonstrated. Here's a definition of reverse engineering from Google. I've bolded the relevant section:

Reverse engineering is taking apart an object to see how it works in order to duplicate or enhance the object. The practice, taken from older industries, is now frequently used on computer hardware and software.

Orks don't duplicate OR enhance. They just restore looted equipment back to a semblance of its original working order. As for being a moron. I think my posting in this thread is sufficient evidence of that.

Keezus, I don't think he was calling you a moron.

Update: Here's some additional footage of unconventional hyperspace exit... (:30-1 minute mark)




Still has some momentum, but not much - although it looks like their somewhat sideways exit from hyperspace (i.e. the entire segment seems to be their messy deceleration) bled away some velocity. The speed at which the ship exits hyperspace seems entirely dependent on sustained velocity while in hyperspace. Its not a standard hyperspace exit, so I'm not sure how admissible this should be... but its interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Keezus, I don't think he was calling you a moron.

I'm calling myself one!

keezus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
IRT dropping out of hyperspace and still moving very fast? Not really.

Spoiler:

Skip ahead to 50s and watch to about 1:05. You can see the jump to, and exit from, hyperspace.

This was brought up on P4. That ROTJ clip shows ships exiting at a speed that doesn't seem very fast. I originally posted a clip from A New Hope which seems to show a faster exit speed.

-edit-


Watch the very start of the clip when the Venator exits hyperspace and note how fast the planet fills observation windows... This looks much faster than any of the film versions, and the ship is slowing during that sequence, as the planet seems to cease growing larger just as they cut away.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:
Really? I can't tell if you're serious or not, because the concept of a being from a completely different species salvaging and reverse-engineer the technology of humanity to the point of producing identical versions of the original piece is just so preposterous. Seriously, are you joking
As for looting Nova Cannons and the like, Orks can apparently loot everything their eyes fall upon. Not to mention the fact that Orks aren't unintelligent. I would give direct quotes but I'm really not in the mood to start combing through books searching for random snippets to show some guy on the internet to prove my point. In my experience, no internet links will ever convince a forum-goer that he's wrong, regardless of how many you provided (I think that I once provided a little over a dozen internet links, ranging from Lexicanum to Warseer threads, stubborn bastard still wouldn't concede defeat, even when he hadn't provided anything to back up his own claims. People are morons.), so I'm not gonna spend any more time searching for the internet to reinforce the two dozen forum-goers whose words back mine up.

We're already in agreement. I already conceded that Orks have unparalleled salvage ability. Whether they can build new copies of what they salvage has never been demonstrated. Here's a definition of reverse engineering from Google. I've bolded the relevant section:

Reverse engineering is taking apart an object to see how it works in order to duplicate or enhance the object. The practice, taken from older industries, is now frequently used on computer hardware and software.

Orks don't duplicate OR enhance. They just restore looted equipment back to a semblance of its original working order. As for being a moron. I think my posting in this thread is sufficient evidence of that.

Ok, still can't tell if you were being serious. I thought we were arguing about Ork intelligence, I must have been way off the mark.

 dusara217 wrote:

keezus wrote:Ok, still can't tell if you were being serious. I thought we were arguing about Ork intelligence, I must have been way off the mark.

At the risk of getting really OT: You are using Ghaz and "reverse engineering" as marks of Ork intelligence, with Ghaz held up to the standard of "genius" level intelligence. Ghaz is smarter than the average Ork, sure, but he exhibits more cunning than intelligence. Regarding reverse engineering as a mark of Ork intelligence: Orks have not advanced their technical know-how, nor have they been able to improve upon what they salvage, so I think this argument is suspect.

Lexicanum wrote:Orks were genetically engineered to be tough, muscular, aggressive and primitive-minded. In addition to their warriors (by far the most populous group), gatherings of Orks are naturally divided into a caste of Oddboyz who are genetically predisposed to perform specific tasks exceedingly well. Indeed, the Orks' creators were apparently able to encode information on how to build and maintain technology in their genetic templates; Mekboyz, for example require very little training in their function, since they understand mechanical principles at an instinctive level.

I'm not saying that its not possible to be intelligent within the context of being primitive minded - however considering that ork baseline intelligence is much lower by design than many of the other races, and their predisposition to only have the strong lead suggests that the genius ork, would be the exception rather than the rule.

My original point was that since Ork technology involves bashing random parts together, AND they haven't improved on that technology since the Brain Boyz died out, AND they are a substantive threat to the IoM, this suggests that Ork tech is at the same firepower level as the IoM... (within 10x magnitude... give or take). Thus, the higher you climb the firepower scale, using Black Library character described effects, the more inconsistencies creep into the "primitive technology" but "threat to the Imperium" established in lore. Thus, the highest end IoM firepower calcs are likely suffering from exaggeration and should not be used.

 keezus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

keezus wrote:Ok, still can't tell if you were being serious. I thought we were arguing about Ork intelligence, I must have been way off the mark.

At the risk of getting really OT: You are using Ghaz and "reverse engineering" as marks of Ork intelligence, with Ghaz held up to the standard of "genius" level intelligence. Ghaz is smarter than the average Ork, sure, but he exhibits more cunning than intelligence. Regarding reverse engineering as a mark of Ork intelligence: Orks have not advanced their technical know-how, nor have they been able to improve upon what they salvage, so I think this argument is suspect.

Lexicanum wrote:Orks were genetically engineered to be tough, muscular, aggressive and primitive-minded. In addition to their warriors (by far the most populous group), gatherings of Orks are naturally divided into a caste of Oddboyz who are genetically predisposed to perform specific tasks exceedingly well. Indeed, the Orks' creators were apparently able to encode information on how to build and maintain technology in their genetic templates; Mekboyz, for example require very little training in their function, since they understand mechanical principles at an instinctive level.

I'm not saying that its not possible to be intelligent within the context of being primitive minded - however considering that ork baseline intelligence is much lower by design than many of the other races, and their predisposition to only have the strong lead suggests that the genius ork, would be the exception rather than the rule.

My original point was that since Ork technology involves bashing random parts together, AND they haven't improved on that technology since the Brain Boyz died out, AND they are a substantive threat to the IoM, this suggests that Ork tech is at the same firepower level as the IoM... (within 10x magnitude... give or take). Thus, the higher you climb the firepower scale, using Black Library character described effects, the more inconsistencies creep into the "primitive technology" but "threat to the Imperium" established in lore. Thus, the highest end IoM firepower calcs are likely suffering from exaggeration and should not be used.

Its arguable that the Orks don't improve their loots. Inprove is an objective term. Humans might say improve means increase the efficiency and arnour, whereas for Orks its all about the Dakka. If an orķ can take a standard APC like a Rhino, slap on heavy stubbers, a quad-gun, mortars, a front ram, chrome spinners, and still have it run just the same or go faster than before, I'd say that's a msjor improvement too.

 Deadshot wrote:
Its arguable that the Orks don't improve their loots. Inprove is an objective term. Humans might say improve means increase the efficiency and arnour, whereas for Orks its all about the Dakka. If an orķ can take a standard APC like a Rhino, slap on heavy stubbers, a quad-gun, mortars, a front ram, chrome spinners, and still have it run just the same or go faster than before, I'd say that's a major improvement too.

Would you consider those "improvements" a mark of intelligence though? Other than the "go fasta" part, the rest of the "improvements" you mention are bolt-ons or cosmetic, and Orks can achieve go fasta with just red paint.

 keezus wrote:

My original point was that since Ork technology involves bashing random parts together, AND they haven't improved on that technology since the Brain Boyz died out, AND they are a substantive threat to the IoM, this suggests that Ork tech is at the same firepower level as the IoM... (within 10x magnitude... give or take). Thus, the higher you climb the firepower scale, using Black Library character described effects, the more inconsistencies creep into the "primitive technology" but "threat to the Imperium" established in lore. Thus, the highest end IoM firepower calcs are likely suffering from exaggeration and should not be used.

Ork technology is anything but primitive though, despite the way it looks. Orks build warp drives, advanced shielding, weapons that utilise alternate dimensions, teleportation devices etc, with the most remarkable thing about it being that they can construct all this from mere scrap. In fact, Ork technology is ahead of the standard stuff used by the Imperium (disregarding the more advanced tech employed by the AdMech and Astartes and such), and it is far ahead of most things that have ever been shown in Star Wars.

Also, Orks do improve and advance their techology when given the chance, as evidenced by the Mek-ruled Telon Reach Empire during the Great Crusade (the one where the Emperor nearly got himself killed). The Orks there had developed technology that was far beyond anything Orks normally had, and far beyond the understanding of even the likes of Horus and the Emperor himself, including the creation of an artificial planet (from scrap).

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 keezus wrote:

My original point was that since Ork technology involves bashing random parts together, AND they haven't improved on that technology since the Brain Boyz died out, AND they are a substantive threat to the IoM, this suggests that Ork tech is at the same firepower level as the IoM... (within 10x magnitude... give or take). Thus, the higher you climb the firepower scale, using Black Library character described effects, the more inconsistencies creep into the "primitive technology" but "threat to the Imperium" established in lore. Thus, the highest end IoM firepower calcs are likely suffering from exaggeration and should not be used.

Ork technology is anything but primitive though, despite the way it looks. Orks build warp drives, advanced shielding, weapons that utilise alternate dimensions, teleportation devices etc, with the most remarkable thing about it being that they can construct all this from mere scrap. In fact, Ork technology is ahead of the standard stuff used by the Imperium (disregarding the more advanced tech employed by the AdMech and Astartes and such), and it is far ahead of most things that have ever been shown in Star Wars.

I suppose a better question would be: Is Ork technology reproducible by non-orks? Does it function without the Ork gestalt psychic field? If the answer to either of those is no, then Ork technology is supported more by their unique gifts than "conventional" intelligence. It is a kind of intelligence to maximize their own potential, although since their latent abilities is essentially to tell science/physics to feth itself, YMMV.

If Orks had decent BS attributes, they would be absolutely terrifying to play against.

Further to the initial Clone Wars clip showing the Venator coming out of hyperspace towards the planet - I did some quick calcs and have to conclude that the speed as shown exiting hyperspace [i]in that instance[/b] is actually faster than light speed. Take that however you will.

 keezus wrote:
Further to the initial Clone Wars clip showing the Venator coming out of hyperspace towards the planet - I did some quick calcs and have to conclude that the speed as shown exiting hyperspace [i]in that instance[/b] is actually faster than light speed. Take that however you will.

I would be very interested in those calculations.

But regardless, that would mean that they would not have yet left Hyperspace entirely, as going faster than light is simply impossible in the regular dimension of the Star Wars universe.