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Discuss this article from the mary sue on 40k

I don't think this has been covered but it seemed relevant, I picked it up off /tg/.

Do you think there is a problem? If so can GW be reached by traditional means (i.e. twitter and facebook mobs, youtube comment sections)?

I had to stop reading. The author is full of BS. I mean saying "we all know why but I won't go into why" or something like that, he just threw out his argument.

He doesn't say it once but 3 times before I gave up reading. If you are going to have a debate or prove your point, you have to acknowledge why. For the author who can't be bothered to write an extra sentence or two explaining GW reasoning/fluff for it no matter how lubricous he may think it is, I can't be bothered to finish reading his point.

Also that is /tg/ mean?

Also mary sue? I thought Mary Sue was a character who can do it all and save the day. What has this to do with female space marines?

One more thing, traditional means is WRITING A WRITTEN LETTER not twitter, Facebook youtube etc.

Write a letter, not type, print a letter, but a hand written letter, MAIL it with a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope and you may get a response back. There is nothing traditional about twitter, Facebook youtube etc.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Do you think there is a problem?

Hell yes.
I'm somewhat surprised at how the article doesn't point to how much better FFG is than GW when it comes to showing minorities in the setting.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
If so can GW be reached by traditional means (i.e. twitter and facebook mobs, youtube comment sections)?

GW doesn't spend time listening to people - that's otiose in a niche market.

EDIT in response to a ninja:

Davor wrote:
Also that is /tg/ mean?

Also mary sue? I thought Mary Sue was a character who can do it all and save the day. What has this to do with female space marines?

/tg/ is the part of 4chan that looks at tabletop games.
Mary Sue is the name of the website, just like how DakkaDakka is the name of a website. The article doesn't have to be related in any way to a Mary Sue, just like how an article here doesn't have to be linked to the sound of guns firing.

None of this is a relevant issue when Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, and Wraithguard exist.

Bets that the OP's real name is James McConnaughy?

While I'm not sure that I would call it a problem, it is something of a missed opportunity I think. It's a little odd that the armies that are described in the lore as being made up of both genders are almost exclusively made up of men when put on the tabletop. Imperial guard in particular are bad for this. I think it would be nice if GW put some female pieces in the next imperial guard infantry box, just for the sake of variety. More options is always nice when making your squad! Then again, this would actually require GW to make a new imp guard infantry squad full stop.

A few more eldar ladies would be nice too. As far as I know, only the banshees and the guardians allow for female models, while females are supposed to be present in all levels of the military. A few male banshee parts would be good too, they're meant to be rare, not non-existent.

Like I said before, I don't think this is really a PROBLEM though. I would advocate female models purely so armies can reflect the lore if the owner wants them to.

a major problem at best, and a complete disaster at worst

Ehhhhhh.....

I mean, the sets come with billions of extra parts, so no reason they can't toss in a few female ones. But this is a real niche franchise based on what is essentially fan art (you can't complete a model without putting you're own personal touch on it). Its small potatoes that fully encourages you to fix its perceived problems anyways.

I'm firmly in the camp that I really don't care. If people taught their children the difference between right and wrong, and spent less time on tumblr and twitter howling about imagined injustices, the big stuff in the world would get sorted and the little stuff like plastic girly bits for toy soldiers would follow suit.

But I'm a white male in a first world country, and I'm pretty sure my opinion doesn't matter.

Davor wrote:

One more thing, traditional means is WRITING A WRITTEN LETTER not twitter, Facebook youtube etc.

Those are the means people that traditionally have this problem contact people whose work they want to change.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Bets that the OP's real name is James McConnaughy?

Chech my posting history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
None of this is a relevant issue when Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, and Wraithguard exist.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

(exalted buddy)

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Bets that the OP's real name is James McConnaughy?

Chech my posting history.

For what? Declarations of people you aren't?

For future reference, if you're looking to initiate discussion, it's better to cut and paste the text with a relevant link than force people to click a link through to another page, firstly it means people don't fall foul of work blocks and can participate, and secondly it doesn't make you look like a blogger fishing for clicks.

Please don't get this started here too. My Facebook feed and /TG/ won't shut up about it, and all that happens is it gets worse the more it gets posted.

Simply put, not every game needs to be a stunning champion for human rights. ESPECIALLY the setting where to be an average person is to be in a kind of hell that we can't even imagine, be that the expendable hive worker or the hapless guardsman (although I do agree we need female IG and plastic sisters)

Also, look at all the horrible mutations and insanely high failure rates the men have with the space marine geneseed. I don't think it's that ridiculous that a process designed for men reacts even more horribly with women when its got a terrible success rate even among prime subjects.

To get back on the topic, its something I feel GW drops the ball on. Lets not even talk about Space Marines, but Imperial Guard - the current Cadian Infantry Squad kit makes 10 models, and comes with 14 (male) heads. Why can't it come with 10 male heads and 4 female heads? Why can't those extra heads in the Russ/Chimera kits have a female gunner head?

There's no need for exaggerated female bodies for an infantry trooper kitted out in combat armour. Just make a head with distinctly female features to differentiate from a dude and include a few extra in the kits. If the concept of female plastic models upsets you so much, then you can still use the male heads to make your plastic army men...

I got as far as "Your whole Space Marine Chapter could identify as women" before I had to burn something in righteous fury.

God I hate the Mary Sue....

 GoonBandito wrote:
To get back on the topic, its something I feel GW drops the ball on. Lets not even talk about Space Marines, but Imperial Guard - the current Cadian Infantry Squad kit makes 10 models, and comes with 14 (male) heads. Why can't it come with 10 male heads and 4 female heads? Why can't those extra heads in the Russ/Chimera kits have a female gunner head?

There's no need for exaggerated female bodies for an infantry trooper kitted out in combat armour. Just make a head with distinctly female features to differentiate from a dude and include a few extra in the kits. If the concept of female plastic models upsets you so much, then you can still use the male heads to make your plastic army men...

Why? because its expensive for GW to make bits for a handful of people who feel outraged whenever every thing in the world isn't gender neutral, race neutral, religious neutral.

Beyond the occasional world like Cadia where they are constantly being invaded by armies of chaos/ork and what not I don't see any reason why the munitorium would even allow females into the guard for frontline service.

In our actual real world, only 1 country that I know of fields females in the infantry and that is Israel. They only field 2 battalions of mixed gender and both are mechanized to allow females to function without carrying heavy packs on patrol. Furthermore both Battalions are being utilized to guard the safest borders Israel possesses, Jordan and Egypt.

The US just changed its policy and pretty soon we are going to have females in the infantry but I have a feeling that the next time a republican comes to power they will repeal this. If not then the US just became a lot weaker in its combat arms.

So really why is this a big deal? who is honestly offended that they can't have a female Space Marine chapter? Why don't my Orks have boobs? who cares really?

 GoonBandito wrote:
Why can't it come with 10 male heads and 4 female heads? Why can't those extra heads in the Russ/Chimera kits have a female gunner head?

Because GW are gak at updating old kits. Those Cadians DESPERATLY need it, but we're not getting good male models either

Is this about female space marines again? Cause I'm not even touching that link with a pole from orbit if it is.

Edit:

Obviously, it’s possible that your entire Space Marines Chapter identifies as women, but since we can’t ask the models how they identify, we have to base it on what the model looks like, and how the background is written. We’re mostly concerned with official representation anyway, as entering the hornet’s nest of conversions, headcannons, and proxies would drive the author to madness.

God damn it go outside kid.

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
Why? because its expensive for GW to make bits for a handful of people who feel outraged whenever every thing in the world isn't gender neutral, race neutral, religious neutral.

Beyond the occasional world like Cadia where they are constantly being invaded by armies of chaos/ork and what not I don't see any reason why the munitorium would even allow females into the guard for frontline service.

In our actual real world, only 1 country that I know of fields females in the infantry and that is Israel. They only field 2 battalions of mixed gender and both are mechanized to allow females to function without carrying heavy packs on patrol. Furthermore both Battalions are being utilized to guard the safest borders Israel possesses, Jordan and Egypt.

The US just changed its policy and pretty soon we are going to have females in the infantry but I have a feeling that the next time a republican comes to power they will repeal this. If not then the US just became a lot weaker in its combat arms.

So really why is this a big deal? who is honestly offended that they can't have a female Space Marine chapter? Why don't my Orks have boobs? who cares really?

How expensive is it really to create 4 different female heads as opposed to 4 different male heads? That's all they have to do. 4 slightly different plastic pieces to replace ones that you cant use anyway because they are surplus bits in the kit.

And why are "real world" arguments even a thing? This a fictional setting where Ork belief in Dakka makes their guns work, Land Raiders and Leman Russ tanks somehow operate despite having no suspension, Boltguns are somehow a functioning and effective weapon, Demons sustain themselves on the collective emotions of humanity and Space Marines are a genetic monstrosity of 'bio-engineering'. But a mixed squad of plastic guardsmen/woman is, according to some, just plain unrealistic.

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
To get back on the topic, its something I feel GW drops the ball on. Lets not even talk about Space Marines, but Imperial Guard - the current Cadian Infantry Squad kit makes 10 models, and comes with 14 (male) heads. Why can't it come with 10 male heads and 4 female heads? Why can't those extra heads in the Russ/Chimera kits have a female gunner head?

There's no need for exaggerated female bodies for an infantry trooper kitted out in combat armour. Just make a head with distinctly female features to differentiate from a dude and include a few extra in the kits. If the concept of female plastic models upsets you so much, then you can still use the male heads to make your plastic army men...

Beyond the occasional world like Cadia where they are constantly being invaded by armies of chaos/ork and what not I don't see any reason why the munitorium would even allow females into the guard for frontline service.

In our actual real world, only 1 country that I know of fields females in the infantry and that is Israel. They only field 2 battalions of mixed gender and both are mechanized to allow females to function without carrying heavy packs on patrol. Furthermore both Battalions are being utilized to guard the safest borders Israel possesses, Jordan and Egypt.

The US just changed its policy and pretty soon we are going to have females in the infantry but I have a feeling that the next time a republican comes to power they will repeal this. If not then the US just became a lot weaker in its combat arms.

So really why is this a big deal? who is honestly offended that they can't have a female Space Marine chapter? Why don't my Orks have boobs? who cares really?

Without touching...most of that, the background does go out of its way to say that female guardsmen are a thing. They show up all over the place - from Gaunt's Ghosts to Space Marine to the FFG artwork for Only War. Would you tell this Maccabian Janissary she's not tough enough for the front lines? I wouldn't.

GW doesn't have female guardsmen models, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be interesting and more true to their own background if they did. There's a pretty decent demand for them, as evidenced by all the female guardsmen bitz/alternate models out there. I'm not...OFFENDED...just disappointed and buying from someone else.

Not that there isn't a whole host of reasons to buy from people other than GW.

 GoonBandito wrote:

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
Why? because its expensive for GW to make bits for a handful of people who feel outraged whenever every thing in the world isn't gender neutral, race neutral, religious neutral.

Beyond the occasional world like Cadia where they are constantly being invaded by armies of chaos/ork and what not I don't see any reason why the munitorium would even allow females into the guard for frontline service.

In our actual real world, only 1 country that I know of fields females in the infantry and that is Israel. They only field 2 battalions of mixed gender and both are mechanized to allow females to function without carrying heavy packs on patrol. Furthermore both Battalions are being utilized to guard the safest borders Israel possesses, Jordan and Egypt.

The US just changed its policy and pretty soon we are going to have females in the infantry but I have a feeling that the next time a republican comes to power they will repeal this. If not then the US just became a lot weaker in its combat arms.

So really why is this a big deal? who is honestly offended that they can't have a female Space Marine chapter? Why don't my Orks have boobs? who cares really?

How expensive is it really to create 4 different female heads as opposed to 4 different male heads? That's all they have to do. 4 slightly different plastic pieces to replace ones that you cant use anyway because they are surplus bits in the kit.

And why are "real world" arguments even a thing? This a fictional setting where Ork belief in Dakka makes their guns work, Land Raiders and Leman Russ tanks somehow operate despite having no suspension, Boltguns are somehow a functioning and effective weapon, Demons sustain themselves on the collective emotions of humanity and Space Marines are a genetic monstrosity of 'bio-engineering'. But a mixed squad of plastic guardsmen/woman is, according to some, just plain unrealistic.

So your point against mine is that its a fictional game and therefore we shouldn't base any logic on it. But the person making the article says that exact same line but it makes sense because reasons? Im sorry where would you like me to pull reasons from then?

I also realize that I am biased because I don't see much of a point in diversity for diversities sake.

It's not 'diversity for diversity's sake'; it's diversity because the 40k universe is diverse, and it feels weird for 90% of Guardsmen armies to be white Cadian dudes. Especially when that goes against the Cadian background.

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
So your point against mine is that its a fictional game and therefore we shouldn't base any logic on it. But the person making the article says that exact same line but it makes sense because reasons? Im sorry where would you like me to pull reasons from then?

The point is that it's a fictional game, and the only reason there are no female space marines is because GW said so. There is no inherent problem with the idea from a realism point of view, GW just decided that's how it was going to be. So saying "because GW said so" as an excuse for why there shouldn't be female space marines is a nonsense argument in a discussion about whether GW should change their policy. All you're doing is restating the facts of how everything is right now.

I also realize that I am biased because I don't see much of a point in diversity for diversities sake.

But you seem to be fine with anti-diversity for anti-diversity's sake.

 Peregrine wrote:

I also realize that I am biased because I don't see much of a point in diversity for diversities sake.

But you seem to be fine with anti-diversity for anti-diversity's sake.

No, but I don't see a point in SJWing every little thing in this world. My family is only white people, maybe I should marry a Black/Asian/hispanic etc women to increase the diversity of my kids so that way we are more diverse and socially acceptable...but wait, maybe none of my kids will be gay or transgender, I should probably encourage that to, to make sure that my family is more diverse. Diversity for diversity sake is just a nice way of saying racist/Sexist etc without actually having to say it.

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
Why? because its expensive for GW to make bits for a handful of people who feel outraged whenever every thing in the world isn't gender neutral, race neutral, religious neutral.

No. It is not at all expensive for GW to do this, because GW's entire business model is built on constantly making new kits for you to buy. Why do you think they keep making endless versions of marines? In fact, it's kind of surprising that GW hasn't made female guardsmen bits, preferably in the form of a must-buy kit for a new blatantly overpowered formation.

Beyond the occasional world like Cadia where they are constantly being invaded by armies of chaos/ork and what not I don't see any reason why the munitorium would even allow females into the guard for frontline service.

Why wouldn't they allow women? The Imperium just cares that you provide enough meat for the endless attrition warfare, and women can die uselessly in human wave attacks just as well as men. It's not like a male body is any better at absorbing a bullet that might otherwise scratch the paint on a precious space marine's sacred armor.

In our actual real world

Who cares about the real world? 40k is not the real world. It's full of things that are blatantly unrealistic but exist because they're awesome. Chainsaw swords, WWI trench warfare in space, sentient fungus monsters acting like rioting soccer fans, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
No, but I don't see a point in SJWing every little thing in this world.

That's nice. Try thinking about this from the point of view who isn't a white guy?

My family is only white people, maybe I should marry a Black/Asian/hispanic etc women to increase the diversity of my kids so that way we are more diverse and socially acceptable...but wait, maybe none of my kids will be gay or transgender, I should probably encourage that to, to make sure that my family is more diverse. Diversity for diversity sake is just a nice way of saying racist/Sexist etc without actually having to say it.

That's a ridiculous straw man and you know it. Don't do that.

That's a ridiculous straw man and you know it. Don't do that.

Why is that a straw man? If the only point to change little plastic men into little plastic women is so that the game is more diverse why wouldnt that same logic apply to everything?

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
Why is that a straw man? If the only point to change little plastic men into little plastic women is so that the game is more diverse why wouldnt that same logic apply to everything?

Do you honestly not see a difference between "GW should include some female head options in the next IG kit" and "I should try to make my children be gay"?

I just couldn't bring myself to read the whole article -- it's just silly.

If you want to play a game with more female models.... play a game with more female models. I can't believe this guy spent as much time as he did writing that article, lol.

A letterwriting campaign to GW is not going to get them to make more female models O.O

As an aside: can you please edit the title? The word is "relevant". TY

There were some female solders in the first set of Imperial Army releases in the late 1980s. There's one in this pic...



Personally I never thought girls were very interested in playing 40K -- or Napoleonics, surprisingly, given the variety of hats involved -- but they didn't used to be interested in video game either, and that changed, so it could be changing for 40K too.

There are also boys who are interested in having female soldier figures in their armies.

It would be pretty cheap to do and would offer more variety for everyone as well as possibly encouraging girls to join in. Victoria Lamb's models of female guard, the Chapter House lady farseer and various attempts at Femarines show there is a market.

Read the article, amused by it as well as eyerolled quite a bit.

Otherwise, it's nothing that needs addressing in any length. Someone looking to start something by tossing their gak opinion over the wall onto the internet.

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
To get back on the topic, its something I feel GW drops the ball on. Lets not even talk about Space Marines, but Imperial Guard - the current Cadian Infantry Squad kit makes 10 models, and comes with 14 (male) heads. Why can't it come with 10 male heads and 4 female heads? Why can't those extra heads in the Russ/Chimera kits have a female gunner head?

There's no need for exaggerated female bodies for an infantry trooper kitted out in combat armour. Just make a head with distinctly female features to differentiate from a dude and include a few extra in the kits. If the concept of female plastic models upsets you so much, then you can still use the male heads to make your plastic army men...

Why? because its expensive for GW to make bits for a handful of people who feel outraged whenever every thing in the world isn't gender neutral, race neutral, religious neutral.

Beyond the occasional world like Cadia where they are constantly being invaded by armies of chaos/ork and what not I don't see any reason why the munitorium would even allow females into the guard for frontline service.

In our actual real world, only 1 country that I know of fields females in the infantry and that is Israel. They only field 2 battalions of mixed gender and both are mechanized to allow females to function without carrying heavy packs on patrol. Furthermore both Battalions are being utilized to guard the safest borders Israel possesses, Jordan and Egypt.

The US just changed its policy and pretty soon we are going to have females in the infantry but I have a feeling that the next time a republican comes to power they will repeal this. If not then the US just became a lot weaker in its combat arms.

So really why is this a big deal? who is honestly offended that they can't have a female Space Marine chapter? Why don't my Orks have boobs? who cares really?

According to the codex, almost all of them do.

In the 40k setting, there's been enough time for some humans to evolve into hulking 10 foot tall ogres and others into 4 foot tall ratlings. I bet you a shiny nickel not every single one of the trillions of women are physically inferior.