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 jonolikespie wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

So weight on one foot and hand on the hip is a stereotype and being a stereotype makes it sexist?

The pose is horrible but it's a secondary concern to the inexplicably ultrathin armour plating on top of an already too-thin body.

So... we beef up the armour a little... and then we are back to looking the same as a male marine?

Only if you have incompetent sculptors who can only make armour look two ways. Again, false dilemma.

I'm curious, those people who think that space marine is 'sexist', what is your opinion of this one from Scale 75s Fallen Frontiers line?

http://www.scale75.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=56&product_id=134

That it is an improvement. It still has boobplate (why on earth does it have boobplate?), the tits'n'ass pose is ugh and it is generally far from the mark but it's at least better...

 Tinkrr wrote:
@hybrid son of oxy: You do know sexism can still be built into a system despite higher parts of a system not being sexist right? We can have a female president, female senators, and more, but it wouldn't mean that we didn't have sexist institutions within our society.

Thanks, that's what I meant. The Astartes are not a progressive institution, they are ideological rather than practical. As are the Sisters, incidentally. The Imperium's policies are intentionally stagnant, they are not about to reorganize anything. The exception is the more intelligent and free-thinking heroes we see, who are a minority. I read a bit of Dan Abnett's work and he represents women well, and took that to writing Guardians of the Galaxy. I'm not so interested in the 40k pseudo-science but most conservative organizations don't change until they have no other choice. And a big part of the grimdark theme is how dysfunctional and regressive the Imperium is politically, it's bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy. The IG is our point of human reference, they are less ideological and more practical, so of course you'd see mixed gender regiments.

To be more positive I liked the female minis from Hasslefree a lot. I want to do a mixed gender force for an XCOM-inspired Stormtrooper+Psyker skirmish army.

@Hybrid

Some of these themes fit perfectly to have female marines. For instance Space Wolves. Saying that female space marines do not fit because “marines are monks” does not make sense as it ignores the reality of the various chapters. It could work for Dark Angels, though. And since Dark Angels are just “one faction among others”, it would be okay to have them all males…

What I mean by monk culture is that, even if SM have very different cultures, they are all based on the same idea: a small group of chosen warriors, tied by strong religious beliefs and driven by the fact they have to fight to defend their faith. In their very nature, they are inspired by military orders of the old Christianity. Middle age and gothic references are deeply rooted in any SM chapter; we tend to focus on special aspect like Space Mongols or Viking perhaps because we have such a good knowledge of the fluff we forget their basic inspiration.

However, what matters here is why space marines are all males. GW has always said that this was a result of the magitech involved in creating the marines, and has never depicted those in charge of deciding who will be recruited as a marine as sexist.

That being said, I really don"t think the only-man thing with SM chapters is the true problem. I think it is you who have a problem with an all-man thing.
I mean, do people always try to force men in SoB orders in the name of sexism? Why nobody want to put men into the Sororitas (except the fact that they don't draw many attention conversely to SM) ?
The answer is exactly the same : GW has said that, because a civil war between humans in a weird Galactic empire, women shall always serve the Ecclesiarchy. Ok, that's the fluff, that's an extra-universe explication that is the expression of some writers beliefs (and backgrounds and so on, we know the song) and thus is rooted in something else than in-verse reasons.
SM are strictly no different. I feel your criticism is just explained by the fact SM are men and they are way way more prestigious than SoB in the current meta (lorewise and crunchwise), so you decided to turn your guns on them, and on anybody standing before.
One could have done exactly the same with Sisters. But they don't because they like 40k and its universe. SM are not intrinsically sexist even though they are over-manly.

It is how and for who they are directed that is - perhaps - sexist. GW policy and inner culture maybe sexist but that's all.

My two cents.

These are conversions, but just the kind of model I'd approve of. If SoB had looked like this I would probably have played them.



Smack on that SoB helmet (the only part of GW SoB models that I like) and you have yourself some reeeeeally cool models who really look like they deserve that 3+!

 RazgrizOne wrote:
TL.DR : Space Marines are male-only but it is not the true problem. I think we should add females where they should be according to the fluff. GW should also stop to always promote SM rather than SoB.

I agree with this.

Not having female SM isn't the main problem, it's a tangent that is distracting and often detrimental to the discussion as a whole.

Does it really even matter if there are female SM? By the time you make a female into an SM, you could hardly call it a female considering how much testosterone is in their system.

Yoyoyo wrote:
The Imperium's policies are intentionally stagnant, they are not about to reorganize anything.

I don't think anyone is asking for plot advancement here, just for a ret-con, so this is off-topic.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
What I mean by monk culture is that, even if SM have very different cultures, they are all based on the same idea: a small group of chosen warriors, tied by strong religious beliefs and driven by the fact they have to fight to defend their faith. In their very nature, they are inspired by military orders of the old Christianity. Middle age and gothic references are deeply rooted in any SM chapter; we tend to focus on special aspect like Space Mongols or Viking perhaps because we have such a good knowledge of the fluff we forget their basic inspiration.

I disagree with the religious and faith part. That is certainly not true for every chapter. I also disagree that “A small band of chosen warrior, tied by strong believes” is something specific to “the military orders of the old Christianity”. I even disagree with the fact that “small band of chosen warrior, tied by strong believes” implies no women…

 RazgrizOne wrote:
That being said, I really don"t think the only-man thing with SM chapters is the true problem. I think it is you who have a problem with an all-man thing.

That… well, that's what I said, yes.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
I mean, do people always try to force men in SoB orders in the name of sexism? Why nobody want to put men into the Sororitas (except the fact that they don't draw many attention conversely to SM) ?

Along with the answers you are already giving out yourself, there is the fact that with the current codex, you can make a “Sisters of battle” army with a male HQ, male Elite choices, and male Heavy support. There used to be male troops too.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
SM are strictly no different. I feel your criticism is just explained by the fact SM are men and they are way way more prestigious than SoB in the current meta (lorewise and crunchwise), so you decided to turn your guns on them, and on anybody standing before.

Just swap “prestigious” with something like “focused on” or “receiving attention” and that's spot on.

 Ashiraya wrote:
These are conversions, but just the kind of model I'd approve of. If SoB had looked like this I would probably have played them.

You playing SoB? Would that not make the universe collapse on itself? Also, would you not reroll every single successful to-wound roll to make sure the game is “fluff-accurate” and no marine dies ?

I would be a SoB fan if their models were not

Ancient
Metal
Overpriced
And looking bad in general.

The author) should be forced to work in uranium mines instead of writing theese kind of topics. One uranium mine worker makes better good than those gender/race/religion/whatever activists all together.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would be a SoB fan if their models were not

Ancient
Metal
Overpriced
And looking bad in general.

What about their fluff? You did not seem to like it either…

@Hybrid

I disagree with the religious and faith part. That is certainly not true for every chapter. I also disagree that “A small band of chosen warrior, tied by strong believes” is something specific to “the military orders of the old Christianity”. I even disagree with the fact that “small band of chosen warrior, tied by strong believes” implies no women…

You can't understand how SM chapters basically work and why they have been created. It is then not very surprising you are trying to impose unnecessary tweaks on their fluff?

Along with the answers you are already giving out yourself, there is the fact that with the current codex, you can make a “Sisters of battle” army with a male HQ, male Elite choices, and male Heavy support. There used to be male troops too.

You know perfectly well what I meant : no men would never be inducted in regular Sororitas infantry units. If you like, we could add brainless female servitors or serfs to SM chapters so they would be the perfect mirror of SoB orders in terms of task repartition?

So... double standard? Or jealousy of SM getting the whole attention perhaps?

That… well, that's what I said, yes.

And I would say it is badly directed since I argue male SM are not the problem. Your concern would be more usefully used on actual topics, like female IG.

I don't think anyone is asking for plot advancement here, just for a ret-con,

We are touching what you really imply: a full retcon of the most iconic soldiers of 40k.... just in the name of a corrupted view of SJW and regardless of the many other ways female presence could be better taken in account in many other armies.

I am sad for you that you see the Astartes as the temple of the phallocracy. Retcon and then impose new justice... It does sounds familiar does it?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Given the bloated unrealistic proportions of the Cadian figures it would be very easy to make more feminine looking figures for Cadians.

It could also be done with Space Marines.

What makes you think a female space marine would look any different after her skeleton and muscles have been enhanced, she's been pumped full of growth hormones and then any minor differences that are left are hidden beneath power armor? Even without a helmet is a 300 year old, angry, bald, scarred woman going to look especially different?

Once again that is the argument that the need for realism in a ridiculously unrealistic science fantasy game trumps the need for aesthetically satisfying dramatic representations.

There would be no point having female space marines who looked exactly like male space marines. They need to look something like this:

There are plenty of people that would describe that model as overly sexualized and therefore sexist.

Does the game need not to have female space marines? That is the question for people to ask themselves.

It was the Japanese who had actual warrior monks, that is to say, they were members of actual temples, took vows, and so on. The Templars were one of the Crusader military orders, who had monk-like vows and devotions. There isn't necessarily a great deal of difference between these two examples.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
You can't understand how SM chapters basically work and why they have been created.

Uh? No argumentation?

 RazgrizOne wrote:
If you like, we could add brainless female servitors or serfs to SM chapters so they would be the perfect mirror of SoB orders in terms of task repartition?

Priests are equivalent to servitors and serfs? That guy looks like a serf to you? Yeh what mate?
My point was that there is no shortage of male models, even in the Sisters of Battle codex.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
So... double standard?

Oh, you noticed! You noticed that Sisters have not received a single new model for more than a decade while marines have too many to count. And books, and video games, and new rules, and all this have the same bias. You also noticed how outside of Marines, there was enormously more male models than female models. And now you are denouncing those double standards, and agreeing with me, right?
Or are you saying that two completely different situations should be treated the same way because else it's “double standard”?

 RazgrizOne wrote:
We are touching what you really imply: a full retcon of the most iconic soldiers of 40k....

This happens basically every new Marine codex, and those happens a lot, so…

 RazgrizOne wrote:
just in the name of a corrupted view of SJW

Corrupted! Whooohooo I'm scary I am chaos now I will corrupt you with my tentacles!

 RazgrizOne wrote:
and regardless of the many other ways female presence could be better taken in account in many other armies.

Hmm, what? Remember, I wrote that:
Okay. I agree with you that making space marines more “just one faction among many” and less “The main focus of the game” would a) make the game much more gender-balanced, especially with female IG release and more female eldars and b) make the game way more enjoyable for me. I just disagree with your argument about how adding female space marines is impossible.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
It does sounds familiar does it?

Well, no it does not, but please enlighten me.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would be a SoB fan if their models were not

Ancient
Metal
Overpriced
And looking bad in general.

What about their fluff? You did not seem to like it either…

It's pretty braindead but it's at least salvageable.

So you would like Sisters of Battle if they changed the models, the fluff, and what else? The rules?
Basically if they changed literally everything, I guess .

@Hybrid

Oh, you noticed! You noticed that Sisters have not received a single new model for more than a decade while marines have too many to count. And books, and video games, and new rules, and all this have the same bias. You also noticed how outside of Marines, there was enormously more male models than female models. And now you are denouncing those double standards, and agreeing with me, right?

Yep I have noticed. I have also noticed that it is such a great source of frustration to you that you have to make up ad-hoc reasons to explain that. You chose sexism and thus assault the SM chapters, regardless of the actual relevance of doing so. Maybe it is not sexism, maybe just the fact that your army is not that much popular among players.

I don't know but you seems very upset about this.

PS : quoting very small parts of other people's arguments to mock them, out of any context, is not how we debate. Just sayin. I know it's just how you do, but it does not serve your point well.

I would definitely like to see an even split, genderwise, on the Cadian sprues at least since the models in no way represent the fluff.

I wouldn't have a problem with female space marines but it really would just be head swaps anyway.

Also, I didn't think the article was that bad and if the idea of wanting to see more inclusivity in a tabletop game makes you want to send the author of the article to a uranium mine or go on a long dissertation about how space marines who can spit acid and have 2 hearts can't be women because science reasons, maybe you have some unaddressed issues beyond the scope of this forum

I did not “assault the SM chapters”. I said your argument for saying they should never be retconned to include women were pretty weak. I also said that I would prefer it if they would actually make them just one faction in the game and keep them only male rather than make them the big star of the show as they are now and making them having both men and women. But your arguments for how they should never be mixed-gender are still pretty weak.
This time I did not quote you at all. Was that better?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I did not “assault the SM chapters”. I said your argument for saying they should never be retconned to include women were pretty weak. I also said that I would prefer it if they would actually make them just one faction in the game and keep them only male rather than make them the big star of the show as they are now and making them having both men and women. But your arguments for how they should never be mixed-gender are still pretty weak.
This time I did not quote you at all. Was that better?

The whole point is, does it even matter? You are arguing why women should be beefed up on steroids to fight the Grimdarkness of the 41st millenium. These are plastic models. Does everything need to be politically correct at the end of the day? All it does is create stupid arguments like this one that have the productivity of a monkey banging his head into a typewriter.

Yes that was better, thanks for putting the forms.

After this text battle, the matter is "do we just have the right to have non-mixed army?" I'd argue that if it is justified by any fluff of any kind and as long as every faction get the same treatment by GeeDubs, it's totally fine.

SoB are one gender due to [insert reason]. SM are one gender because of [insert reason]. Is that such a big deal?

Disparity in treatment is the problem, not the fact that SM are male-only. But I have already said that. Regarding my arguments they may be weak, but they are mostly inspired by fluff. GW told you women can't withstand marine-ing process. That's pretty weak, but it is still canon.

Now we're arguing in circle I guess.

The whole point is, does it even matter? You are arguing why women should be beefed up on steroids to fight the Grimdarkness of the 41st millenium. These are plastic models. Does everything need to be politically correct at the end of the day? All it does is create stupid arguments like this one that have the productivity of a monkey banging his head into a typewriter.

Pretty much my point!

Does everything have to be PC?

Maybe not, but ask yourself honestly why it is so important to you not to have female soldiers in 40K. What skin is it off your nose if my daughter can have a box of lovely lady soldier figures to play with?

As for female marines, the situation could be easily addressed by discovering the two missing Primarchs are women, sent by the Emporer on a long-distance secret mission to the Magellanic Clouds, and are now returning with the secret of how to fight Tyranids.

The thing about only men being possible to convert into SMs is merely a transcription error in the instructions, perpetuated by religious fervour and technical ignorance for thousands of years in the Imperial core.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Sexymarines. Maybe if not for a...crotch crack (?)...it'd be fine.

Anywayz, space marines are represented extremely manly. That's kinda sexism towards men too. But that's how stuff works. In fantasy setting men are supposed to be manly and women are supposed to be sexy. I mean look at DnD characters. Haven't seen many ugly characters out there. At least >90% females are hot. Aren't they supposed to be living good life of ordinary handsome people, produce healthy kids and do stuff like that? Nope, obviously all hotties throw themselves headfirst into dark dungeons.

@RazgrizOne

My only issue with female Space Marines is that if they did existed, why would we need to keep the SoB? We might just as well turn them in a special Space Marine chapter that just turned out to be made only of women. It would solve a lot issue.

That mentionned, I don't think female Space Marine are necessary for a more gender equal 40K line and fluff. That said, I also don't think the current existence of the Sisters of Battle female only group compensate properly for the fact that Space Marines are all men. It would be like saying that there is no sexism issue in the superhero movie genre because Black Widow is cool. Sure, she's cool and the other guys are cool too and we don't want them to be gone, but a single cool female second string character isn't gender equality not even close. This is what we call tokenism. Expose and publicise the very small minority allowed in your group to discredit any critique on the ground of sexism/racism. People use the same strategy to defend the fact that transcontinental slavery wasn't racist because some black men did owned slaves.

Female Space Marines would be an avenue for more gender equality in our medium, but this isn't the one I would favor. I would much rather see the Sisterhood grow in attention, the addition of female models and character in both the Scions and the regular guard, the addition of a few notable female character in the Necron cast and Adeptus Mechanicus (who are overwhelmingly protrayed as men even if their actual gender is gone). I am very happy with the Tau line who did an excellent job at gender equality. The eldars, being elves, were always the niche place to find women because eldar chick are hot and can serve both as eye candy and good female characters should the need arise so their gender representation (which still favor men rather strongly) was expected.

Considering the place this hobby has in my life and probably in the life of many of you, I wouldn't call this an irrelevant issue at all. I would like my main form of entertainment to be more respectful and inclusive when it comes to women (and races and culture, but that's more tricky and easier to find a work around). Popular entertainment also has a massive importance in the way we perceive the world and those that surround us. Yes, more women inclusion would help reduce in conjonction with many other things (mainly more education) sexual stereotypes and sexism in the nerd community and this is a thing that is very important thing.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What skin is it off your nose if my daughter can have a box of lovely lady soldier figures to play with?

Its not really the skin off my nose, its more the arm and leg I would have paid for those lady soldiers.

Does everything have to be PC?

Maybe not, but ask yourself honestly why it is so important to you not to have female soldiers in 40K. What skin is it off your nose if my daughter can have a box of lovely lady soldier figures to play with?

The fact that little girls would play with ladies soldiers rather than man soldiers is kind of invalidating your discourse by putting prejudice in it, don't you think? I mean, maybe a 12 years old girl would walk into a GW and totally love current SM iconography and fluff, while being not that much appealed by a mixed chapter?

Individuals could have a million reaction and tastes. And this is why I think standardize every single little plastic soldier for the sake of a valid conception (gender equality) is just irrelevant.

@epronovost

My only issue with female Space Marines is that if they did existed, why would we need to keep the SoB? We might just as well turn them in a special Space Marine chapter that just turned out to be made only of women. It would solve a lot issue.

That mentionned, I don't think female Space Marine are necessary for a more gender equal 40K line and fluff. That said, I also don't think the current existence of the Sisters of Battle female only group compensate properly for the fact that Space Marines are all men. It would be like saying that there is no sexism issue in the superhero movie genre because Black Widow is cool. Sure, she's cool and the other guys are cool too and we don't want them to be gone, but a single cool female second string character isn't gender equality not even close. This is what we call tokenism. Expose and publicise the very small minority allowed in your group to discredit any critique on the ground of sexism/racism. People use the same strategy to defend the fact that transcontinental slavery wasn't racist because some black men did owned slaves.

Female Space Marines would be an avenue for more gender equality in our medium, but this isn't the one I would favor. I would much rather see the Sisterhood grow in attention, the addition of female models and character in both the Scions and the regular guard, the addition of a few notable female character in the Necron cast and Adeptus Mechanicus (who are overwhelmingly protrayed as men even if their actual gender is gone). I am very happy with the Tau line who did an excellent job at gender equality. The eldars, being elves, were always the niche place to find women because eldar chick are hot and can serve both as eye candy and good female characters should the need arise so their gender representation (which still favor men rather strongly) was expected.

Considering the place this hobby has in my life and probably in the life of many of you, I wouldn't call this an irrelevant issue at all. I would like my main form of entertainment to be more respectful and inclusive when it comes to women (and races and culture, but that's more tricky and easier to find a work around). Popular entertainment is also has a massive importance in the way we perceive the world and those that surround us. Yes, more women inclusion would help reduce in conjonction with many other things (mainly more education) sexual stereotypes and sexism in the nerd community.

You Sir has filled the holes in what I wanted to say.

I did my best to avoid token comparisons, I know how stupid they can be.

I remember old fourth edition fluff that stated that women on Cadia almost all the time performed in back field roles - as in everything that wasn't on the front lines, since the entire male population was drafted into the Guard.

One of the few examples of a female Cadian is Mira from the non-canon Space Marine.

I'm sure they could easily hand wave that away, and make it suitably grim dark at the same time. Women that are infertile being thrown in the trenches to die with the other cannon fodder, or some such.

Though, it might not go over so well now a days to have all of the men marching off to die while the women are being used as baby making machines.

Little boys would also be allowed to play with the little lady soldiers.

I haven't suggested mixed SM chapters, I have suggested female SM chapters.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

The fact that little girls would play with ladies soldiers rather than man soldiers is kind of invalidating your discourse by putting prejudice in it, don't you think? I mean, maybe a 12 years old girl would walk into a GW...

Little girls like to play with soldiers. Yeah, right. Generally, when girls have choice, they play with baby dolls and barbies while boyz boys play with cars and, yep, soldiers. If a girl is allready interested in cars and soldiers, little issues like no-female marines won't bother her imo.

RazgrizOne, I feel I already answered your questions many times, but I am trying once again.
To use your own words, “SoB are one gender due to [insert reason]. DA are one gender because of [insert reason].” would be fine, because SoB and DA are about on the same level. Well, sure, DA receive a lot more attention, but they are still just one faction among other, not about half of the armies.
Similarly, if Space Marines became just “one faction among many”, then “SoB are one gender due to [insert reason]. SM are one gender because of [insert reason].“ would be fine.
But currently marines are half the armies in the game, AND on top of that the other armies all have way more male models than female models, so in those conditions, it does mean that keeping marines male-only perpetuate a huge gender imbalance.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Does everything need to be politically correct at the end of the day?

Of course!
What does politically correct mean?

 koooaei wrote:
But that's how stuff works. In fantasy setting men are supposed to be manly and women are supposed to be sexy.

And I question if “stuff” is working the right way. I mean, what, is the status quo sacred to you?