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 Tactical_Spam wrote:
He is certainly better looking than Glory.

We have very, very different tastes .

Wait, it's not normal to have sex with your models? Well, I've been doing it wrong this whole time D:

I think something that was brought up is kind of interesting and that's how much emphasis we put on gender, which can be a negative thing from a political correctness way in more than just being a buzz kill. I've actually known people who have been seriously emotionally hurt as a result of others trying to be overly progressive, or politically correct, mostly because of how much they focused on gender to the point of discrimination... And before anyone makes some assumptions in writing, no I'm not talking about men being emotionally hurt in these situations, even though it shouldn't matter who was hurt, and yes I'm talking about more than just them feeling down or upset about something.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
He is certainly better looking than Glory.

We have very, very different tastes .

Unless you had told me that, I may never know.

Glory basically looks like the Hulk to me.

And no, I would not sleep with the Hulk, but I do not find him repulsive in appearance either.

Why does a female model have to be bimboified to look good as a model?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Glory basically looks like the Hulk to me.

And no, I would not sleep with the Hulk, but I do not find him repulsive in appearance either.

Why does a female model have to be bimboified to look good as a model?

I didn't say bimboified. I just said I didn't like hyper masculine females... That was all.

 Hawky wrote:
This. I also would like to see some female guard models, and because they are not avalible from the glorious GW, I didn't started to yell how unfair and sexist it is and made few of them myself. The same applies to model of Farseer which I converted to be female.

Another unnecessary problem solved, next please...

If we got rid of all male IG models, would you say there was a problem?

Surely you wouldn't? You could just convert your own from the female ones.

Otherwise, wow, what an internet badass you are for not caring about issues that are problematic to others than yourself.

Really thought this topic would be "not a problem, but if they included it I wouldn't care".

Then again I thought the mutilator thread would be 3 pages at worst so...

What if we just updated the horrendous IG models so their form is more androgynous then make some female and male heads, yes? Or get some 3rd party to make female IG heads.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yes. They are monks. Space Marines are meant to evoke classic medieval imagery of monks and knights.

Right, another inspiration for the Imperium is the medieval catholic church. Which is still a bastion of conservative thinking and archaic morality, imagine them in the 1500's! Blinkered thinking dating back to the dark ages is part of 40k's theme. I mean, isn't the most politically powerful entity in 40k literally called "the Inquisition"?

Somebody mentioned the idea of the two missing Primarchs being women. That's REALLY interesting in terms of why that information might have been repressed, and it also would be quite unique. They wouldn't function administratively like a SM Legion/Chapter so there's tons of cool narrative potential here. There's nothing wrong with female space marines as plastic models, I think inclusivity is good. But you still want to respect the tone and setting of the fictional universe, and the the Imperium in 40k isn't much of an enlightened meritocracy.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yes. They are monks. Space Marines are meant to evoke classic medieval imagery of monks and knights.

Right, another inspiration for the Imperium is the medieval catholic church. Which is still a bastion of conservative thinking and archaic morality, imagine them in the 1500's! Blinkered thinking dating back to the dark ages is part of 40k's theme. I mean, isn't the most politically powerful entity in 40k literally called "the Inquisition"?

Somebody mentioned the idea of the two missing Primarchs being women. That's REALLY interesting in terms of why that information might have been repressed, and it also would be quite unique. They wouldn't function administratively like a SM Legion/Chapter so there's tons of cool narrative potential here. There's nothing wrong with female space marines as plastic models, I think inclusivity is good. But you still want to respect the tone and setting of the fictional universe, and the the Imperium in 40k isn't much of an enlightened meritocracy.

You can't have female space marines and SoB. Either way, Females would be portrayed as Nuns and Males as Monks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
None of this is a relevant issue when Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, and Wraithguard exist.

after getting face smashed by 5 WK and scat bikes I have to agree.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Little boys would also be allowed to play with the little lady soldiers.

I haven't suggested mixed SM chapters, I have suggested female SM chapters.

Or we could just give Sororitas some love. We could also drop them altogether and make mixed SM chapters, though there would not be much difference between Male amd Female Astartes considering both are walking testosterone.

We? Are you sculpting minis or something?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hawky wrote:

If we got rid of all male IG models, would you say there was a problem?

Surely you wouldn't? You could just convert your own from the female ones.

Otherwise, wow, what an internet badass you are for not caring about issues that are problematic to others than yourself.

Yes, I would do that.
And I just find this topic extremly ridiculous, nothing more...

Filch wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
None of this is a relevant issue when Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, and Wraithguard exist.

after getting face smashed by 5 WK and scat bikes I have to agree.

There will always be scatterbikes, or assisted overwatches, or deathstars, or turn one assaults, or some other hot-button issue that threatens to utterly destroy this game we like. They will be replaced by the next issue of the month in their due time.

Fixing them will not resolve this issue, and taking the time to resolve this issue would not delay fixing them. We can have both.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Right, another inspiration for the Imperium is the medieval catholic church. Which is still a bastion of conservative thinking and archaic morality, imagine them in the 1500's!

There's a number of problems with this, but I'll stick to the highlights:
-You're muddling the middle ages and the renaissance here.
-Imagining is unnecessary, despite the general impression on what the Dark Ages were like, there are actually plenty of historical accounts on what the church did and did not do during these eras.
-It's not the Imperium, but the ecclesiarchy that intentionally resembles the stereotype of what the medieval Catholic Church was like. Space Marines as a fighting force do not fit that parallel too well.

Besides that I just wanted to say I'm impressed dakka managed to take a troll post or troll article and have a mostly reasonable discussion about representation in the game.

Also, to remind people Sisters of Battle originally looked like this:


... oh, and also that new Glory is awesome.

 Hawky wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hawky wrote:

If we got rid of all male IG models, would you say there was a problem?

Surely you wouldn't? You could just convert your own from the female ones.

Otherwise, wow, what an internet badass you are for not caring about issues that are problematic to others than yourself.

Yes, I would do that.
And I just find this topic extremly ridiculous, nothing more...

I agree with this guy. The model line is too small - astronomically, impossibly small - in comparison to the diversity of the 40k setting. So...that's why we all have so much fun converting stuff. But, for all those making this out to be some gender equality crusade...I sincerely hope that you will divert your energy, time, and enthusiasm to working on actual issues that affect people, not a niche hobby group; who, might I add, all have the incredible luxury and privilege to spend their time playing table top war games, etc.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
It's not the Imperium, but the ecclesiarchy that intentionally resembles the stereotype of what the medieval Catholic Church was like. Space Marines as a fighting force do not fit that parallel too well.

True enough, 40k is a pastiche of influences. The Imperium's bureaucracy is something like GW's take on Kafka. Commissars and underequipped soldiers dying in droves are stereotypes of the WW2 Red Army. "Sly Marbo" and the Catachans should be pretty obvious. 40k Orks are cheerful football hooligans crossed with Tolkien's Orcs, etc. Space Marines are some amalgamation of historical Knights Templar, Heinlein's Starship Troopers and Nietzche's Superman. Sisters are Joan of Arc writ large down to the Fleur-de-Lis. Daemons are from Greek and Christian Mythology. I'm not a historian but I'd like to think I'm not too off-base on the general cultural archetypes!

I think part of the problem was 40k was a parody that GW has begun to take seriously. Space Marines aren't rebels against the morality of the Imperium and they aren't WW2 citizen-soldiers or apolitical mercenaries either. They are not really good guys, they are the willing and enthusiastic enforcers of a xenophobic and intolerant fascist state, as well as political symbols and walking propaganda that are valued and glorified over other citizens. Chaos Marines are the dark side taken to its logical conclusion, where they embrace their innate superiority -- they are the "master race". It's bizarre to try and tack progressive morality onto this, as if 40k's serious failing was in gender representation. The whole thematic universe represents systemic failure of our modern democratic values. As soon as you ask us to admire anything, you have a problem.

40k really is an interesting idea and pretty unique concept, though the actual execution is pretty childish at times. I think that's why it resonates so well despite it's flaws. Other people will understand the fluff better than me but this all seems pretty obvious on first glance. One of the evils of fascism is its view of women as inferior. So that's why it seems strange to me to try and ask to 40k universe to be a more liberal and inclusive place -- we're not meant to aspire to and identify with the Imperium or Space Marines, we are meant to laugh at the absurdity of it all.

I like the Sisters because they are equally deranged and zany (Pipe organ rocket launcher -- awesome) and the Guard makes sense because soldiers are always attuned to what consists of political bs. But I did think it was a strange article for not recognizing this contradiction.

Just my 2 cents.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
This. I also would like to see some female guard models, and because they are not avalible from the glorious GW, I didn't started to yell how unfair and sexist it is and made few of them myself. The same applies to model of Farseer which I converted to be female.

Another unnecessary problem solved, next please...

If we got rid of all male IG models, would you say there was a problem?

Surely you wouldn't? You could just convert your own from the female ones.

Otherwise, wow, what an internet badass you are for not caring about issues that are problematic to others than yourself.

Here's my gripe. It's not about fairness in the grimdark - it's about the dismay of it all. The decay of human civilization. The fact that things like "equal rights" fell to the wayside literally millennia ago to war.

It's *supposed* to be somewhat offensive to our modern day sensibilities, because that's the whole joke - humanity has regressed to a barbaric dystopian state.

Furthermore - women *are* represented both in the fluff and troops. Inquisitors are female. Sisters of Battle. The Eldar commonly are represented in both male and female minis.

The only way this might be ok is if the models were utterly non-sexualized. I don't want to be associated with any weirdos that are getting their jollies off by imagining an army of scantily clad warrior women.

You should check out the female Arcadians by Victoria miniatures. I would accept models such as those being introduced to 40k.

As for space marines, I am a fan of the idea of them being a fraternity.

I like how one of the solutions provided was "re-right years of fluff to fit my view on society, and have that view in my game" as opposed to: leave SOB and SM gendered (since they both have perfectly fine in-fluff reasons), update SOB line (get cussed out for having repentia available to play, and how they are the femenist version of hitler), update cadians (as an example) with female heads (since the "non-sexualized" version of a 28mm model will look remarkably similar to a man in full war gear.) OR as otahak pointed out: the in game world is NOT fair since super space daemons and space locusts and space hitler egyptians are running about killing everything

I love threads like these. They highlight problems in the fanbase as well as they highlight problems in the game. It highlights that there are some truly odious individuals that play this game.

Should there be female Space Marines? Eh... no. It's a conceit of the setting that they're entirely male.

Should there be females represented in every other aspect of the Imperium (and all the other armies that have gender dimorphism?) Hell yes.

The only way this might be ok is if the models were utterly non-sexualized. I don't want to be associated with any weirdos that are getting their jollies off by imagining an army of scantily clad warrior women.

Never run a Wytch Cult? Don't know anyone who has played Dark Eldar over a few editions, back to when the Wytches were good? Scantily-clad female models have been a thing in 40k since forever. In the larger hobby scene of tabletop games and RPG miniatures, scantily-clad models of both genders have always been a thing. After all, there's plenty of Conan wannabes in their fur loincloths and huge pecs on the male side of the house in fantasy gaming, and always has been.

There is also the Succubus model. You can't get much more sexualized than that in a PG-13 setting

 Psienesis wrote:

Should there be female Space Marines? Eh... no. It's a conceit of the setting that they're entirely male.

Well put.

To be fair over the top sex, drugs and violence is kinda the dark eldar way.

Yoyoyo wrote:
One of the evils of fascism is its view of women as inferior.

Are you talking about fascism as the Italian regime during WW2, or as a generic term for a totalitarianism? Because I heard some Communist pretty totalitarian regime were actually quite good on that front…


Also, I said it before, I will say it again: the treatment of mutants has been played up in the fluff as something xenophobic and unjust and terrible, the “sexism” is not even mentioned in fluff. If the sexism was played up in the fluff it would be very different.

 Psienesis wrote:
In the larger hobby scene of tabletop games and RPG miniatures, scantily-clad models of both genders have always been a thing. After all, there's plenty of Conan wannabes in their fur loincloths and huge pecs on the male side of the house in fantasy gaming, and always has been.

That will be the male equivalent of sexualized female models the day those Conan wannabe replace their loose-fitted loincloths with some nice metal strings that allow us to admire their bottoms.

I WILL NOT SETTLE UNTIL WE HAVE AN ARMY OF BLACK LESBIANS IN EMPOWERING RAINDBOW ARMOUR!!!

But in all seriousness, GW should just put a female guard head variant in every box of IG and update SoB, it'll keep everyone happy with minimal cost.... No seriously GW, what the heck?? *descends into no plastic SoB rant*

They don't think they will sell. If that is true or not I can't say with out data but until the sales department determines the redo will move the needle they won't pull that trigger.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How does female space marines existing and never having been mentioned in the fluff before invalidates marine fluff (or “change their very nature”) more than grav guns and centurion armor ?

I don't know about anyone else here but I personally hate the introduction of grav guns and centurions. That kinda crap is killing my interest in the setting long after I lost interest in the game itself.

I'm so with you on this. Part of what I always liked was the feel that nothing new was made but things were slowly lost. That inevitable slide into breakdown.

Someone said earlier that marines being male was a conceit to the setting. I have to agree with this. Sometimes as a writer you simply want to make something so. Why is the Slayer title something that can only be passed down from one girl to the next? Because Joss Whedon wanted it that way. And that's ok. I suspect though that if another cult show was made today where women were explicitly excluded from being the super hero there would be articles like this one written.

I also think that marines being male is just a holdover more than anything. Original marines did actually include some female models, back when marines were feral world and hive scum recruits. In the Compilation they changed marines from human to super human with the geneseed and added the line 'These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become space marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility and psychological screening.' and now they're stuck with it. They came up with what I'm sure they thought was a cool 'create a super soldier' story that was tied to biology. From there they just conceded that male and female biology is different- especially on a hormonal level- and went from there.

Which leads me to one more thing. Imagine they didn't have the whole 'must be male' thing. What effects would the marine creation process have on young girls? Assume that all the organs and whatnot work. How would they end up looking? I suspect the answer is they'd look extremely masculine. So masculine in fact that between the directed bone growth, slabs of muscle and massive testosterone hits you'd have to look in their underwear to see what their gender actually was.

So yeah, put in more women where they're possible like the IG and update SoB. But let the marines stay as they are.

 Kojiro wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How does female space marines existing and never having been mentioned in the fluff before invalidates marine fluff (or “change their very nature”) more than grav guns and centurion armor ?

I don't know about anyone else here but I personally hate the introduction of grav guns and centurions. That kinda crap is killing my interest in the setting long after I lost interest in the game itself.

I'm so with you on this. Part of what I always liked was the feel that nothing new was made but things were slowly lost. That inevitable slide into breakdown.

So yeah, put in more women where they're possible like the IG and update SoB. But let the marines stay as they are.

Couldn't agree more with you about the 40k universes' "entropy" theme. I don't like the idea that lost technologies can be recovered, or new ones created by the imperium. My perception based on the fluff is exactly that - the human race is in decline, and there's no stopping it unless the emperor dies and is reborn.

 Grumblewartz wrote:

 Hawky wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hawky wrote:

If we got rid of all male IG models, would you say there was a problem?

Surely you wouldn't? You could just convert your own from the female ones.

Otherwise, wow, what an internet badass you are for not caring about issues that are problematic to others than yourself.

Yes, I would do that.
And I just find this topic extremly ridiculous, nothing more...

I agree with this guy. The model line is too small - astronomically, impossibly small - in comparison to the diversity of the 40k setting. So...that's why we all have so much fun converting stuff. But, for all those making this out to be some gender equality crusade...I sincerely hope that you will divert your energy, time, and enthusiasm to working on actual issues that affect people, not a niche hobby group; who, might I add, all have the incredible luxury and privilege to spend their time playing table top war games, etc.

1) Take helmeted Guardsman head
2) Make face less-blocky
3) Stick ponytail coming out from under helmet

Done.

And, let's just put aside that "there's bigger problems to spend your energy on" argument. Lots of people can do both, even more than both, at the same time.

Which leads me to one more thing. Imagine they didn't have the whole 'must be male' thing. What effects would the marine creation process have on young girls? Assume that all the organs and whatnot work. How would they end up looking? I suspect the answer is they'd look extremely masculine. So masculine in fact that between the directed bone growth, slabs of muscle and massive testosterone hits you'd have to look in their underwear to see what their gender actually was.

Probably a lot like this, except not being green:

So you're saying a female that went through the process would still develop hips, breasts and be slimmer with less muscle mass than a male astartes?