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Akiasura wrote:
I don't have a problem with them being sexualized personally. Women want to play sexy females like men want to play sexy males. Have you seen He-Man? Talk about unrealistic body images. A lot of the male models are heavily muscled in this game too.

Do we really have to go through something so basic as why power fantasy and objectification are different things?

You know what that means, Dakka! DING DING DING DING!

It's time for the FEMALE ARMOR RHETORIC BINGO!



And we hit SQUARE ONE!

To properly explain why He-Man, Conan and the like are not comparable to what we're seeing here, allow me to elaborate. Bare skin does not equal objectification.

Consider the following image. (Spoilered because NSFW).



The one on the left wears more clothing than the one on the right, but which one is more sexualised?

Indeed, it's the one on the left. The right looks like a plausible, savage barbarian (I'd probably have added -some- kind of chest support but that can easily be done with just a few straps).

He-Man is a muscular monster, displaying his enviable strength! But it does not make him sexualised. Musclemonsters usually are not that sexy.

If he had looked more like this Dead or Alive character, then yeah, sure, I could buy that. This fighter outfit is clearly designed to look attractive. But how often do you see this in games, movies, models, etc? (Spoilered because size)



Not very often.

It is the difference between looking at your character, and looking through the eyes of your character. You're not supposed to think He-Man is sexy, you're supposed to want to be as strong as he is! Compare to Red Sonya, who is a warrior-barbarian clearly designed to titillate the audience.

And that, my friends, is why objectification and power fantasy are different.

Carry on.

As you wish.

 koooaei wrote:
As you wish.

Spoiler:

I don't know, Titus looks pretty normal really, so I can't imagine his female equivalent would be any different.

Female bodybuilders allready look like space marines, so...i guess it's not very horrifying as an image.
There's just one problem that women on roids are still weaker than men on roids.

 koooaei wrote:
As you wish.

Spoiler:

Ugh, jeez.

The 'Eavy Metal team always goes WAY overboard on the makeup.

Ashirya,
You can walk in and say that He-Man isn't sexualized, although you'd be hard pressed to back that statement up, but I don't think you can deny that he represents an unrealistic body image for men.

And, to be fair, neither of those images looks realistic to me. Both are have great bodies that I wouldn't expect malnourished barbarians to have.

Take a look at superman, batman, green lantern, and Spider-Man. You'll notice they all have muscles, nobody is overweight (though the body types do change from slender to larger), and they mostly have great hair (lantern could use some help here).

To me, this is part of the male fantasy just like heroes like Wonder Woman are part of the female fantasy. Both want to be sexy and powerful, and most heroes reflect this. You'll never convince me that captain America and Thor aren't being sexualized by the female auidence and represent unrealistic body images for men. They are also some of my favorite heroes.

You'll notice the bingo card mentions that it's to be used when skimpy armor is mentioned as being practical, which I never did. So you didn't hit any squares . I don't think the original female marine model is that sexualized at all, though it's certainly an attractive figure.


Edit;
Walking in with a condescending hostile tone isn't really helping anyone, your argument least of all.

 koooaei wrote:
Female bodybuilders allready look like space marines, so...

Have you seen how Marines look? They look like strongmen, not bodybuilders.

Ie, like this.

Looks very strong, but not deformed or excessive in any way.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Female bodybuilders allready look like space marines, so...

Have you seen how Marines look? They look like strongmen, not bodybuilders.

Ie, like this.

Looks very strong, but not deformed or excessive in any way.

That's a bodybuilder not-on-a diet. Strongmen look round.

Akiasura wrote:
Ashirya,
You can walk in and say that He-Man isn't sexualized, although you'd be hard pressed to back that statement up, but I don't think you can deny that he represents an unrealistic body image for men.

He is designed for you to look up to, not to be eyecandy. The difference is massive - it is not just in clothing, it is in how they are posed and portrayed.

Take a look at superman, batman, green lantern, and Spider-Man. You'll notice they all have muscles, nobody is overweight (though the body types do change from slender to larger), and they mostly have great hair (lantern could use some help here).

Okay then, find an overweight female superhero. Now THAT is what I call a challenge.

To me, this is part of the male fantasy just like heroes like Wonder Woman are part of the female fantasy. Both want to be sexy and powerful, and most heroes reflect this. You'll never convince me that captain America and Thor aren't being sexualized by the female auidence and represent unrealistic body images for men. They are also some of my favorite heroes.

As I recall, Loki got a LOT more attention from the female audience, and rightfully so! Thor looks good, but not THAT good. And guess what, Loki has a realistic body image.

And please do not assume that being sexualised is the power fantasy for women ('men want to look strong, women want to look sexy.') It is not a good argument to push and I hope I will not need to explain why.

You'll notice the bingo card mentions that it's to be used when skimpy armor is mentioned as being practical, which I never did. So you didn't hit any squares . I don't think the original female marine model is that sexualized at all, though it's certainly an attractive figure.

Look at the very first square and you find your answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:


That's a bodybuilder not-on-a diet. Strongmen look round.

False. That is Hafthór Júlíus Björnsson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafth%C3%B3r_J%C3%BAl%C3%ADus_Bj%C3%B6rnsson

Hafþór Júlíus "Thor" Björnsson (or "Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson"; Icelandic pronunciation: [ˈhafθour ˈjuːliʏs ˈpjœsːɔn], born November 26, 1988) is an Icelandic professional strongman competitor, actor and former professional basketball player.

Cool. But most of them look round cause they use growth hormones.

 Brennonjw wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
But marines are humans, they are just humans+1 in many ways. They start out as humans and are just engineered to be better. It's not like gorillas start out human and are mutated.
Unless my girlfriend hasn't been telling me something...

It's similar to superman in a way. Technically, he isn't human. But for most people, he is portrayed as the best humanity has to offer despite this (unless you are reading injustice in which case screw that guy).

yeah, they start as humans, and end up as "beyond humans", but my issue (and point, that I seemingly cannot explain ) is Kilkrazy's point about marines being sexist 'cause they are all dudes who are better then girls is misleading because they are better then the human race as a whole (and technically orks, tau, and most nids )

That is not exactly my point, actually.

My point is that SMs are better than everyone, only boys can be SMs, therefore girls are not capable of being as good as boys, because they are girls.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Ashirya,
You can walk in and say that He-Man isn't sexualized, although you'd be hard pressed to back that statement up, but I don't think you can deny that he represents an unrealistic body image for men.

He is designed for you to look up to, not to be eyecandy. The difference is massive - it is not just in clothing, it is in how they are posed and portrayed.

I wasn't aware you knew the designers intent for every hero and heroine.
My apologies.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Take a look at superman, batman, green lantern, and Spider-Man. You'll notice they all have muscles, nobody is overweight (though the body types do change from slender to larger), and they mostly have great hair (lantern could use some help here).

Okay then, find an overweight female superhero. Now THAT is what I call a challenge.

Talk about moving the goalpost...
Find a overweight superhero of any gender.
That is a challenge, gender doesn't play into it. Which is my point.

 Ashiraya wrote:

To me, this is part of the male fantasy just like heroes like Wonder Woman are part of the female fantasy. Both want to be sexy and powerful, and most heroes reflect this. You'll never convince me that captain America and Thor aren't being sexualized by the female auidence and represent unrealistic body images for men. They are also some of my favorite heroes.

As I recall, Loki got a LOT more attention from the female audience, and rightfully so! Thor looks good, but not THAT good. And guess what, Loki has a realistic body image.

Really? Some males would argue being that thin and with that bone structure is an unrealistic body image for many. He's certainly not someone men want to look like, but it is someone that gets sexualized.
And considering what some of the women have said to his actor....males couldn't get away with saying that to black widow.

And just because Loki gets more attention doesn't invalidate that Thor and the captain do get attention as well.

 Ashiraya wrote:

And please do not assume that being sexualised is the power fantasy for women ('men want to look strong, women want to look sexy.') It is not a good argument to push and I hope I will not need to explain why.

No, I'm saying men and women want to be strong and sexy. That's why the vast majority of heroes are both strong and sexy on both sides of the fence. There are some exceptions, like dead pool, but he's more of a comedian than a real hero. And there is a female dead pool.

 Ashiraya wrote:

You'll notice the bingo card mentions that it's to be used when skimpy armor is mentioned as being practical, which I never did. So you didn't hit any squares . I don't think the original female marine model is that sexualized at all, though it's certainly an attractive figure.

Look at the very first square and you find your answer.

Look at the directions on your card to find the rebuttal

And those growth hormones have nothing to do with what Marines use. Bodybuilders use their muscles for show. They are actually quite weak for their muscle mass, because those oversized muscles are not practical for actual use.

Marines are strong because they need that strength. The Emperor wouldn't have designed his soldiers to be physically impressive than weak, especially since their strongmen build gets them both and is covered by armor anyway.

Does anyone know what marines look like under their armor? I've never seen a picture personally so I can't say what they look like underneath all that stuff

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
But marines are humans, they are just humans+1 in many ways. They start out as humans and are just engineered to be better. It's not like gorillas start out human and are mutated.
Unless my girlfriend hasn't been telling me something...

It's similar to superman in a way. Technically, he isn't human. But for most people, he is portrayed as the best humanity has to offer despite this (unless you are reading injustice in which case screw that guy).

yeah, they start as humans, and end up as "beyond humans", but my issue (and point, that I seemingly cannot explain ) is Kilkrazy's point about marines being sexist 'cause they are all dudes who are better then girls is misleading because they are better then the human race as a whole (and technically orks, tau, and most nids )

That is not exactly my point, actually.

My point is that SMs are better than everyone, only boys can be SMs, therefore girls are not capable of being as good as boys, because they are girls.

That's still grasping. Sure, they start as "only boys' but by the end, when they are actually space marines, they are arguably no longer human both ethically in the real world, AND by the fluff itself (see why certain commanders and inquisitors dislike or distrust Space Marines). They are killing machines indoctrinated to dispose of anything that is impeding the Imperium. They are better then ALL humans because they lack most base forms of human emotions. They are better then men AND woman, and to call them sexist cause they are better then woman is just grasping for something to be upset about.

Akiasura wrote:

I wasn't aware you knew the designers intent for every hero and heroine.

A meaningless claim. You began by saying that characters like He-Man were sexualised as well. Do you know that? No, neither of us does. Moot point.

Talk about moving the goalpost...
Find a overweight superhero of any gender.
That is a challenge, gender doesn't play into it. Which is my point.

Okay. Mr. Incredible from The Incredibles. Nite Owl II from Watchmen. Neither of them are very obscure at all, actually. Done. Your turn.

Really? Some males would argue being that thin and with that bone structure is an unrealistic body image for many. He's certainly not someone men want to look like, but it is someone that gets sexualized.

I think you are on to something here, namely what I have been saying all along - those designed to look sexy to one gender are often not what the other gender is meant to look up to.

And considering what some of the women have said to his actor....males couldn't get away with saying that to black widow.

A separate issue entirely.

And just because Loki gets more attention doesn't invalidate that Thor and the captain do get attention as well.

Of course they do. Just about everything does.

No, I'm saying men and women want to be strong and sexy. That's why the vast majority of heroes are both strong and sexy on both sides of the fence. There are some exceptions, like dead pool, but he's more of a comedian than a real hero. And there is a female dead pool.

Well, they want to be strong and what they think the other sex will find sexy, anyway...

Look at the directions on your card to find the rebuttal

The card actually gives the same counter-argument I gave you, rather than rebutting itself.

Akiasura wrote:
Does anyone know what marines look like under their armor? I've never seen a picture personally so I can't say what they look like underneath all that stuff

massive bodies, elongated chests (due to all the implants). I think there used to be a side on view of a marine without armor in the last SM codex.

Akiasura wrote:
Does anyone know what marines look like under their armor? I've never seen a picture personally so I can't say what they look like underneath all that stuff

Yeppers!




They look like a decently fit normal man, basically. Very tall, with superdense muscles and bones and whatnot, but otherwise not monstrous.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Does anyone know what marines look like under their armor? I've never seen a picture personally so I can't say what they look like underneath all that stuff

Yeppers!




They look like a decently fit normal man, basically. Very tall, with superdense muscles and bones and whatnot, but otherwise not monstrous.

don't they have a more recent view in the 6e SM codex?

There's this one from Deathwatch. It's more recent.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
But marines are humans, they are just humans+1 in many ways. They start out as humans and are just engineered to be better. It's not like gorillas start out human and are mutated.
Unless my girlfriend hasn't been telling me something...

It's similar to superman in a way. Technically, he isn't human. But for most people, he is portrayed as the best humanity has to offer despite this (unless you are reading injustice in which case screw that guy).

yeah, they start as humans, and end up as "beyond humans", but my issue (and point, that I seemingly cannot explain ) is Kilkrazy's point about marines being sexist 'cause they are all dudes who are better then girls is misleading because they are better then the human race as a whole (and technically orks, tau, and most nids )

That is not exactly my point, actually.

My point is that SMs are better than everyone, only boys can be SMs, therefore girls are not capable of being as good as boys, because they are girls.

That's still grasping. Sure, they start as "only boys' but by the end, when they are actually space marines, they are arguably no longer human both ethically in the real world, AND by the fluff itself (see why certain commanders and inquisitors dislike or distrust Space Marines). They are killing machines indoctrinated to dispose of anything that is impeding the Imperium. They are better then ALL humans because they lack most base forms of human emotions. They are better then men AND woman, and to call them sexist cause they are better then woman is just grasping for something to be upset about.

It absolutely is not grasping. It is fundamental to the argument:

You can't be a doctor because you're a girl.
You can't be a fighter pilot because you're a girl.
You can't be a cameraman because you're a girl.
You can't be a space marine because you're a girl.

Do you honestly not understand the implications of these statements?

The key difference between the real life examples and the SM example is that IRL girls can now become doctors, fighter pilots and cameramen. It's purely because of a made-up fictional reason that they can't become SMs.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
But marines are humans, they are just humans+1 in many ways. They start out as humans and are just engineered to be better. It's not like gorillas start out human and are mutated.
Unless my girlfriend hasn't been telling me something...

It's similar to superman in a way. Technically, he isn't human. But for most people, he is portrayed as the best humanity has to offer despite this (unless you are reading injustice in which case screw that guy).

yeah, they start as humans, and end up as "beyond humans", but my issue (and point, that I seemingly cannot explain ) is Kilkrazy's point about marines being sexist 'cause they are all dudes who are better then girls is misleading because they are better then the human race as a whole (and technically orks, tau, and most nids )

That is not exactly my point, actually.

My point is that SMs are better than everyone, only boys can be SMs, therefore girls are not capable of being as good as boys, because they are girls.

That's still grasping. Sure, they start as "only boys' but by the end, when they are actually space marines, they are arguably no longer human both ethically in the real world, AND by the fluff itself (see why certain commanders and inquisitors dislike or distrust Space Marines). They are killing machines indoctrinated to dispose of anything that is impeding the Imperium. They are better then ALL humans because they lack most base forms of human emotions. They are better then men AND woman, and to call them sexist cause they are better then woman is just grasping for something to be upset about.

It absolutely is not grasping. It is fundamental to the argument:

You can't be a doctor because you're a girl.
You can't be a fighter pilot because you're a girl.
You can't be a cameraman because you're a girl.
You can't be a space marine because you're a girl.

Do you honestly not understand the implications of these statements?

The key difference between the real life examples and the SM example is that IRL girls can now become doctors, fighter pilots and cameramen. It's purely because of a made-up fictional reason that they can't become SMs.

This post killed it for me.

I have been reading this thread and cringing at some of the statements made by both sides. But the clarity of this statement rang true in my head, and exalted!

I still plan to cringe at some of the arguments on both sides, but I just wanted to point out that this post clearly and concisely won my support.

I don't consider Mr Incredible to be overweight at all.
Owl from the watchmen is bigger but not really overweight either.
I'm talking straight up fat.

If you want Big Bertha. She's even an avenger so still from the same universe as the heroes I mentioned.


If you want, we can spin this around. Male villains can be quite large, while female villains are almost exclusively sexy. What does that say about body images?

edit,
The card does not. It specifically says that it's used to be used when someone defends fantasy armor being...not there for women. I was doing no such thing, as I think it's pretty absurd myself.

Akiasura wrote:
I don't consider Mr Incredible to be overweight at all.
Owl from the watchmen is bigger but not really overweight either.
I'm talking straight up fat.

I remember Mr. Incredible's belly flopping around when I saw the movie. I'd say that counts. He just removed his belt and BOOOM.

If you want, we can spin this around. Male villains can be quite large, while female villains are almost exclusively sexy. What does that say about body images?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsSexy ?

The card does not. It specifically says that it's used to be used when someone defends fantasy armor being...not there for women. I was doing no such thing, as I think it's pretty absurd myself.

That is one end of that argument, but it's still the same argument.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
But marines are humans, they are just humans+1 in many ways. They start out as humans and are just engineered to be better. It's not like gorillas start out human and are mutated.
Unless my girlfriend hasn't been telling me something...

It's similar to superman in a way. Technically, he isn't human. But for most people, he is portrayed as the best humanity has to offer despite this (unless you are reading injustice in which case screw that guy).

yeah, they start as humans, and end up as "beyond humans", but my issue (and point, that I seemingly cannot explain ) is Kilkrazy's point about marines being sexist 'cause they are all dudes who are better then girls is misleading because they are better then the human race as a whole (and technically orks, tau, and most nids )

That is not exactly my point, actually.

My point is that SMs are better than everyone, only boys can be SMs, therefore girls are not capable of being as good as boys, because they are girls.

That's still grasping. Sure, they start as "only boys' but by the end, when they are actually space marines, they are arguably no longer human both ethically in the real world, AND by the fluff itself (see why certain commanders and inquisitors dislike or distrust Space Marines). They are killing machines indoctrinated to dispose of anything that is impeding the Imperium. They are better then ALL humans because they lack most base forms of human emotions. They are better then men AND woman, and to call them sexist cause they are better then woman is just grasping for something to be upset about.

It absolutely is not grasping. It is fundamental to the argument:

You can't be a doctor because you're a girl.
You can't be a fighter pilot because you're a girl.
You can't be a cameraman because you're a girl.
You can't be a space marine because you're a girl.

Do you honestly not understand the implications of these statements?

The key difference between the real life examples and the SM example is that IRL girls can now become doctors, fighter pilots and cameramen. It's purely because of a made-up fictional reason that they can't become SMs.

I get the implications, but your point is still fairly well grasping. Doctors, fighter pilots, cameramen are all jobs. Space marines are basically a different species. Yes, initially, the recruits are men because they are genetic clones of primarchs (who were written as all men because they were made to be partial clones of a man). But by the end of that transformation to become a space marine, they are no longer humans, but are basically mutants.

To try and place sexism into this because "they are described as better then girls" when they are described as better then everything is you ignoring half of the groups they are "better" then for the sake of trying to prove your point. in the fluff, a space marine isn't a job, but a physical and mental transformation into something not human.

I get it, for some reason we need to re-write 30 years of fluff because it's now sexist if you can't fit women into every group, and having a SINGLE army in a game be only men is just beyond acceptable, but your entire argument is the same "I'm making Wolverine a girl now because it's sexist that only boys can be wolverine."

and I can do what you did to:

You can't be a Baby sitter because you're a boy.
You can't be a Fashion designer because you're a boy.
You can't be a Nurse because you're a boy.
You can't be a Sister of battle because you're a boy.
You can't be a Howling banshee because you're a boy.

The only difference is I don't hear you calling Banshees or SoB sexist for not having men in their main battle ranks.

You mean when he wasn't a hero, when he was depressed? Before he got in shape and became a happy hero again?


How does your link address my point at all? It only talks about female villains, there is no mention of male villains and how they can be large while male heroes are not.



And not really, unless you are saying that the female marine is equivalent to bikini armor, which is a bit of a stretch.

Akiasura wrote:
You mean when he wasn't a hero, when he was depressed? Before he got in shape and became a happy hero again?

As far as I remember, it was more a question of him using a really tight belt than him losing any weight.

How does your link address my point at all? It only talks about female villains, there is no mention of male villains and how they can be large while male heroes are not.

Male heroes are large? Do you mean fat or do you mean like the Hulk?

And not really, unless you are saying that the female marine is equivalent to bikini armor, which is a bit of a stretch.

'Men are sexualised too!' is not all that different whether it's a question of bikini armour or that ridiculous female Marine from a few pages back. Both focus too much on emphasising femininity at the cost of any emphasis on the fact that they are warriors.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
To what end, I don't know, but it reminds me of an anecdote I heard about GW corporate not letting store employees paint models as black people in order to avoid offending black people.

I'm not so sure that's at all true. Tho who knows, maybe it's damage control from a company that for quite a while didn't have better than "bestial brown" to offer. Heh.

 Brennonjw wrote:

and I can do what you did to:

You can't be a Baby sitter because you're a boy.
You can't be a Fashion designer because you're a boy.
You can't be a Nurse because you're a boy.
You can't be a Sister of battle because you're a boy.
You can't be a Howling banshee because you're a boy.

The only difference is I don't hear you calling Banshees or SoB sexist for not having men in their main battle ranks.

Well. Babysitters and nurses aren't exactly high-status professions (precisely because they're intended for women). Male fashion designers are quite well established, however.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
To what end, I don't know, but it reminds me of an anecdote I heard about GW corporate not letting store employees paint models as black people in order to avoid offending black people.

I'm not so sure that's at all true. Tho who knows, maybe it's damage control from a company that for quite a while didn't have better than "bestial brown" to offer. Heh.

 Brennonjw wrote:

and I can do what you did to:

You can't be a Baby sitter because you're a boy.
You can't be a Fashion designer because you're a boy.
You can't be a Nurse because you're a boy.
You can't be a Sister of battle because you're a boy.
You can't be a Howling banshee because you're a boy.

The only difference is I don't hear you calling Banshees or SoB sexist for not having men in their main battle ranks.

Well. Babysitters and nurses aren't exactly high-status professions (precisely because they're intended for women). Male fashion designers are quite well established, however.

I concede on the fashion designer, poor example. However, are cameramen "high-status" professions? Also, I see massively more respect for nurses then I do doctors. And I think the lack of "respect" for baby sitters is more related to the fact that it's usually a "teen" job, something done durring high school.

 Brennonjw wrote:
The only difference is I don't hear you calling Banshees or SoB sexist for not having men in their main battle ranks.

You still don't get it, neither of those is glorified to the same extent. SoB don't even have a modern model line. You are proving killkrazy's point in reverse. And yes, it is sexist -- when you hold warriors up as the highest function performed in your society, and only men can become warriors, women default to have a primary value of reproduction. This is a historical reality. To steal a quote from Wikipedia, "War is to man what maternity is to the woman." Said by Italian fascist Mussolini.

Space Marines are the protagonists of the setting, but looking up to them or wanting to emulate them is a lot like idealizing Patrick Bateman in American Psycho. You're missing the joke. They are catholic space nazis.

That's why I find it so strange to ask for female space marines -- glorifying men as warriors at the expense of women is emblematic of fascism. And that's very much part of the grimdark, even if GW isn't shoving that logical connection in your face.