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 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I like how in Warhammer, we wouldn't question the prosess of making space marines. We would be worried about not getting eaten or dismembered. This whole conversation is surreal. I couldn't give a flying feth what space marines were IRL. They are 9' tall super humans, tougher than nails, and hit harder than a pick up truck. That's cool. Do we need to make it not cool when we say, "Lets make sure everything is represented in a dystopian future where that issue isn't even a concern." I am amazed nobody brought up that there weren't black people represented in warhammer 40k.

So because you think Marines are cool, people shouldn't question them?

Thanks, but no thanks.

No, I am saying, at the end of the day, does it even matter? Who cares that SM are all male and SoB are all female? Is it even important?

To others, it is - sufficiently to talk about it.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I like how in Warhammer, we wouldn't question the prosess of making space marines. We would be worried about not getting eaten or dismembered. This whole conversation is surreal. I couldn't give a flying feth what space marines were IRL. They are 9' tall super humans, tougher than nails, and hit harder than a pick up truck. That's cool. Do we need to make it not cool when we say, "Lets make sure everything is represented in a dystopian future where that issue isn't even a concern." I am amazed nobody brought up that there weren't black people represented in warhammer 40k.

So because you think Marines are cool, people shouldn't question them?

Thanks, but no thanks.

No, I am saying, at the end of the day, does it even matter? Who cares that SM are all male and SoB are all female? Is it even important?

Why are so many people so concerned to stop it from happening?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Are you SJW, Bro?

Please do not sink this low.

To some degree this may be a form of pragmatism. Men and woman are equally mentally but physically men tend to have an edge.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/sports/track-records-men-vs-women.htm

Men and Woman even at the peak of athletic performance still have differences. Pragmatically then The Emperor in selecting one sex over the other makes sense . Additionally pragmatic is that the imperium for lack of a better term needs bodies. It's attrition rate is through the roof in a way that we haven't seen in years if ever. Again it would be pragmatic to encourage woman to have children rather than fight and die. Trying to apply 21st century morals and logic to a despotic future is only going to end up spripping away a lot of 40k flavor.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Are you SJW, Bro?

Please do not sink this low.

No, seriously. Is it so important that Tactical_Spam doesn't think women would be cool as Space Marines? Does it really matter that I have this petty argument about merits in a meritless universe? Who cares? Are you going to get offended because I have a certain opinion about things?

No, it is completely unimportant. Why is it important to you that others do?

 Ashiraya wrote:
No, it is completely unimportant. Why is it important to you that others do?

Because this whole argument for Female Space Marines is ridiculous. WH40K is choking on grimdarkness. There is no reasonable explanation behind judging people by who they are not what they are in Warhammer. That is your immersion. Everything is dark and wayward.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

IDK what Banshees are but no doubt they are sexist too.

At any rate, you seem to have come to the realisation that 40K is rather sexist, and that's good.

I really don't mean to offend you, but do you play 40k?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Aren't I just the most offensive person imaginable?

Well, it that was not rhetorical, then the answer is no. If that was rhetorical… still no.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Are you SJW, Bro?

Am I?
Also, are you offended by SJW?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Aren't I just the most offensive person imaginable?

Well, it that was not rhetorical, then the answer is no. If that was rhetorical… still no.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Are you SJW, Bro?

Am I?
Also, are you offended by SJW?

I think SJWs are annoying. I don't think you grasped why I said it though.

This thread is really losing any purpose. one side is giving fairly good logical reasons for why things are the way they are, while presenting feasible ways to address the problem, while the others side is ignoring facts and adding nothing of value to the conversation beyond saying "I want, I want, I want" and "I'm oppressed because toy soldiers in a niche fictitious universe can only be men."


Guess what? to be strong you need testosterone, which space marines have tons added to their physiology. Women when pumped full of testosterone look like men after the fact. (see the bodybuilder pictures on page 11)

That is science. we have empirical evidence of this in the real world and the fact that it is a major process in making someone a space marine that is the way it would be. We also know multiple organs are added to the body, see "palumboism" to see what enlarged organs do to the body.



Second off, I think its a cop out to be asked which kits should have female heads added and then dodge the question. To have some idea of feasibility we really oughtt to explore which kits should have them added. is it just basic troop boxes, or every single one?



Further more is it even economically fruitful to add them to the game? will female heads/kits be hailed as the greatest thing GW has ever done and cause the game to be played evenly by men and women with sales shattering records?

Something tells me they would be spending more money adding them then they would make as a result of them.

eleven11 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

IDK what Banshees are but no doubt they are sexist too.

At any rate, you seem to have come to the realisation that 40K is rather sexist, and that's good.

I really don't mean to offend you, but do you play 40k?

I've got Tau and Tyranid armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
No, it is completely unimportant. Why is it important to you that others do?

Because this whole argument for Female Space Marines is ridiculous. WH40K is choking on grimdarkness. There is no reasonable explanation behind judging people by who they are not what they are in Warhammer. That is your immersion. Everything is dark and wayward.

So dark and wayward that even women are forced into the most dangerous combat positions.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
No, it is completely unimportant. Why is it important to you that others do?

Because this whole argument for Female Space Marines is ridiculous. WH40K is choking on grimdarkness. There is no reasonable explanation behind judging people by who they are not what they are in Warhammer. That is your immersion. Everything is dark and wayward.

So dark and wayward that even women are forced into the most dangerous combat positions.

We call that the Imperial Guard.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
To some degree this may be a form of pragmatism. Men and woman are equally mentally but physically men tend to have an edge.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/sports/track-records-men-vs-women.htm

Men and Woman even at the peak of athletic performance still have differences. Pragmatically then The Emperor in selecting one sex over the other makes sense . Additionally pragmatic is that the imperium for lack of a better term needs bodies. It's attrition rate is through the roof in a way that we haven't seen in years if ever. Again it would be pragmatic to encourage woman to have children rather than fight and die. Trying to apply 21st century morals and logic to a despotic future is only going to end up spripping away a lot of 40k flavor.

This is the realism argument. It is refuted by two considerations:

1. 40K is a science fantasy game that includes walking robot tanks the size of skyscrapers, intelligent humanoid fungi who use scrap metal to make advanced weapons that work because they think they look cool, and dinosaur-insects that can genetically engineer themselves to be proof against nuclear plasma or flamethrowers, but not both at the same time.

In short, it's not very realistic.

2. In the most desperate war of attrition in history, the Soviet Unit deployed more female infantry, fighter pilots and tank crews than all the other nations together, and won.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

So dark and wayward that even women are forced into the most dangerous combat positions.

Another thing to throw out here; lets say they added females on a mass scale to the game. What's to keep people from turning around and saying the game encourages violence towards females then?


People already accuse that of video games

 stormotron wrote:
That is science.

Err, lol? Did you really just try to pull the "it's science" argument about a process that is on the "a (space) wizard did it" level of realism and plausibility?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stormotron wrote:
What's to keep people from turning around and saying the game encourages violence towards females then?

Nothing, but you know that's not what most people mean when they say "violence against women". They're talking about violence against female victims. You know, murder, abusive relationships, etc. They aren't usually talking about killing female soldiers in combat alongside male soldiers, with no attention at all given to their gender.

 Peregrine wrote:

 stormotron wrote:
That is science.

Err, lol? Did you really just try to pull the "it's science" argument about a process that is on the "a (space) wizard did it" level of realism and plausibility?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stormotron wrote:
What's to keep people from turning around and saying the game encourages violence towards females then?

Nothing, but you know that's not what most people mean when they say "violence against women". They're talking about violence against female victims. You know, murder, abusive relationships, etc. They aren't usually talking about killing female soldiers in combat alongside male soldiers, with no attention at all given to their gender.

see this is why this thread is losing any value. lets go ahead and quote a tiny part of my post and say "oh there's space magic LOL at you and science."

There's an already inplace method for how they make space marines and it requires testosterone boosting drugs amongst other things.

arguing your point by saying I am wrong because space magic is just empty.

Not really seeing a problem with space marines made out of women. They're so modified that their original gender doesn't matter much. They're supposed to be flesh golems, after all. If anything I think it would actually make space marines better since they would move one step away from being superdudes and further towards distinctly artificial creatures because you end up with the same product whether you use a man or a woman. Updated descriptions of how they're made should definitely include nuts and dicks being scraped off and replaced with a strictly waste-expelling unit.

The funny thing is that there is absolutely no source whatsoever that says testosterone is involved in the Astartes creation process.

Rosebuddy wrote:
Not really seeing a problem with space marines made out of women. They're so modified that their original gender doesn't matter much. They're supposed to be flesh golems, after all. If anything I think it would actually make space marines better since they would move one step away from being superdudes and further towards distinctly artificial creatures because you end up with the same product whether you use a man or a woman. Updated descriptions of how they're made should definitely include nuts and dicks being scraped off and replaced with a strictly waste-expelling unit.

A female space marine would still be weaker, technically and logically.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
To some degree this may be a form of pragmatism. Men and woman are equally mentally but physically men tend to have an edge.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/sports/track-records-men-vs-women.htm

Men and Woman even at the peak of athletic performance still have differences. Pragmatically then The Emperor in selecting one sex over the other makes sense . Additionally pragmatic is that the imperium for lack of a better term needs bodies. It's attrition rate is through the roof in a way that we haven't seen in years if ever. Again it would be pragmatic to encourage woman to have children rather than fight and die. Trying to apply 21st century morals and logic to a despotic future is only going to end up spripping away a lot of 40k flavor.

This is the realism argument. It is refuted by two considerations:

1. 40K is a science fantasy game that includes walking robot tanks the size of skyscrapers, intelligent humanoid fungi who use scrap metal to make advanced weapons that work because they think they look cool, and dinosaur-insects that can genetically engineer themselves to be proof against nuclear plasma or flamethrowers, but not both at the same time.

In short, it's not very realistic.

2. In the most desperate war of attrition in history, the Soviet Unit deployed more female infantry, fighter pilots and tank crews than all the other nations together, and won.

And long term that killed the soviets ability to project man power for quite some time. Woman were fighting because they had a shortage of men due to the dying. Giving that the Imperium is bigger and can plan out things a bit better, I can see a social policy of have as many kids as you can now makes sense. As for the Marines the attrition process to make one marine is pretty high. Men are the expendable gender when it comes to refilling.

Again I'm not saying that rank and file guard shouldn't have female models. If you want to do that there are several third party bitz to do that. Part of the reason that GW may not make female minis is that there are so many third party bitz available that it's not economical to re cut the guard sprue. That's simple economics.

As to the first one, where going to go round in circles. I presented evidence on why GW might have made the choice they did. Your come back amounts to I don't like GW fluff and it should change because it offends me. Space marines are males only because GW decided that and that's their call. I support them in making that decision for their fictional universe.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The funny thing is that there is absolutely no source whatsoever that says testosterone is involved in the Astartes creation process.

"Space Marine Aspirants must be adolescents or very young adults, as the implants must be able to coordinate with a human male's natural growth hormones during adolescence to stimulate the growth and development of the various unique physiological features of a Space Marine. In specific terms, the recruit must be about 10-16 Terran standard years of age, although the process has been documented to still work in recruits as old as 20 as long as they have not yet reached their full adult growth. "



just to note; I AM NNOT saying there shouldn't be female heads/bodies added to kits. Nor am I arguing no female space marines.

I am just saying to have a female space marine equal to her male peers in strength and utility they would be grotesque in appearance like their male equivalents

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
Not really seeing a problem with space marines made out of women. They're so modified that their original gender doesn't matter much. They're supposed to be flesh golems, after all. If anything I think it would actually make space marines better since they would move one step away from being superdudes and further towards distinctly artificial creatures because you end up with the same product whether you use a man or a woman. Updated descriptions of how they're made should definitely include nuts and dicks being scraped off and replaced with a strictly waste-expelling unit.

A female space marine would still be weaker, technically and logically.

Not really. Certainly not after everything done to the body to turn it into a space marine.

 stormotron wrote:

just to note; I AM NNOT saying there shouldn't be female heads/bodies added to kits. Nor am I arguing no female space marines.

I am just saying to have a female space marine equal to her male peers in strength and utility they will be grotesque like their male equivalents

That's fine with me and probably everyone else. It isn't like space marines are entirely human.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
Not really seeing a problem with space marines made out of women. They're so modified that their original gender doesn't matter much. They're supposed to be flesh golems, after all. If anything I think it would actually make space marines better since they would move one step away from being superdudes and further towards distinctly artificial creatures because you end up with the same product whether you use a man or a woman. Updated descriptions of how they're made should definitely include nuts and dicks being scraped off and replaced with a strictly waste-expelling unit.

A female space marine would still be weaker, technically and logically.

Not really. Certainly not after everything done to the body to turn it into a space marine.

An average female is weaker than an average male. Becoming a space marine, which requires you to be a male, multiplies your strength and endurance. An average male space marine would out do an average female space marine, if they could be made.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/sports/track-records-men-vs-women.htm

Again even the olympic level, which is the showcase of athletes, woman have came up roughly 10 percent short. Could 40k hand wave that. Yes, which is as equal a choice as not. GW has made their decision, it makes sense logically and I hope they stay with it.

 stormotron wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The funny thing is that there is absolutely no source whatsoever that says testosterone is involved in the Astartes creation process.

"Space Marine Aspirants must be adolescents or very young adults, as the implants must be able to coordinate with a human male's natural growth hormones during adolescence to stimulate the growth and development of the various unique physiological features of a Space Marine. In specific terms, the recruit must be about 10-16 Terran standard years of age, although the process has been documented to still work in recruits as old as 20 as long as they have not yet reached their full adult growth.

How recent is this source?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

An average female is weaker than an average male. Becoming a space marine, which requires you to be a male, multiplies your strength and endurance. An average male space marine would out do an average female space marine, if they could be made.

Need I remind you that human men and women are both strength 3 and that you're talking about a process that grants people the ability to eat memories? Differences between individual candidates are clearly not relevant. Space marines are made out of people generally between the ages of ten and sixteen, which is far too young to be able to say with certainty that they're all going to be exceptionally strong. A twelve-year-old candidate is as likely to win the competition by wits and savagery as they are by being bigger than the other children.

What you're claiming would not be the case.

Don't they just mean human growth hormone?

Akiasura wrote:
Don't they just mean human growth hormone?

they definitely would use that as well, but the saying male before it inclines me to believe they refer to test in this instance.

But HGH is just as important; they take adepts at a young age as their bone plates aren't sealed and thus the HGH can be used to make their skeletal systems grow way beyond natural capacity.

This is why Kor Pheron and Luthor were not full astartes and were much shorter than there legion. Too old for the gene/hormone therapy.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

An average female is weaker than an average male. Becoming a space marine, which requires you to be a male, multiplies your strength and endurance. An average male space marine would out do an average female space marine, if they could be made.

Need I remind you that human men and women are both strength 3 and that you're talking about a process that grants people the ability to eat memories? Differences between individual candidates are clearly not relevant. Space marines are made out of people generally between the ages of ten and sixteen, which is far too young to be able to say with certainty that they're all going to be exceptionally strong. A twelve-year-old candidate is as likely to win the competition by wits and savagery as they are by being bigger than the other children.

What you're claiming would not be the case.

Is life a game? We are all S3?