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You keep saying that without factoring in that Fantasy had how many years to establish itself?

We're not even a year in to Age of Sigmar. We've got brief descriptions of things and hints of things to come. For example, the latest audio drama? There's Ogors in there wearing head to toe plate armor and wielding gigantic shields, acting as shock troops for the rest of their clan during fights with the Stormcast.

And y'know what? Little hints like that were dropped about Dorghar months in advance. Be patient. Look around for bread crumbs--because they most certainly are there.

 Breotan wrote:

Waaargh wrote:
The minis have been there for years, 10+, yelling at GW for not selling them anymore is harsh.

GW redesigned Necrons and they flew off the shelves. GW redesigned Dark Eldar and they flew off the shelves. GW even did a minor redesign to Tau and they're still flying off the shelves. I'm firmly of the mindset that had GW put the same effort into Fantasy they would have sold more than they did.

Gw redisgned Dark elves and they didnt fly off the shelves. Looking back that 2 month release seemed like a last chance for warhammer. We can argue about why it didnt work (price, ugly horses) but Gw tried a major reboot of a fantasy range with a similar number of new kits to the dark eldar reboot which didnt do the business for them. That said The dark elves have largely survived so there is still hope for them.

The gw aos Facebook page has directly said that some of the heroes and armies affected by this cull will get new minis in the future. I am guessing that Tyrion at least will get a new model. The Brettonians aside the high elves have come off worst in this cull. I suspect will see something high elfish when the AOS story finally reaches the realm of light.

@Kanluwen,
HEY! Spoilers man!

@Chikout,

Oh they're definitely going to build up the gutted ones. You can't really have Tyrion as a major protagonist and not give him a model when he previosly had one.

The Bretonnians might not make a return though but a little mixing of future free people and aelves will fix that.

Chikout wrote:

Gw redisgned Dark elves and they didnt fly off the shelves. Looking back that 2 month release seemed like a last chance for warhammer. We can argue about why it didnt work (price, ugly horses) but Gw tried a major reboot of a fantasy range with a similar number of new kits to the dark eldar reboot which didnt do the business for them. That said The dark elves have largely survived so there is still hope for them.

Strictly speaking, the reason why Dark Elves didn't "fly off the shelves" is that the book wasn't that strong. None of the stuff that got resculpts was really awe-inspiring, statwise, to begin with.

The gw aos Facebook page has directly said that some of the heroes and armies affected by this cull will get new minis in the future. I am guessing that Tyrion at least will get a new model. The Brettonians aside the high elves have come off worst in this cull. I suspect will see something high elfish when the AOS story finally reaches the realm of light.

Wood Elves actually came out worse than High Elves. High Elves lost most of their Finecast heroes, three aging plastic kits(Archers, Silver Helms, and Spearmen), a 5 man sprue that was associated with a starter set that is no longer around and the models/profiles associated with that same starter set.

Wood Elves lost an entire subfaction that was within their ranks(Sylvaneth), basically every one of their heroes, one of their most amazing units(Waywatchers are no longer units but now Heroes only--bonus for me as I had 15 of them and a Waywatcher Lord to begin with), and several of their 'okay' units(Glade Riders are gone, Wardancers are gone--I'm kinda pissed most about the loss of Hunting Hounds and Orion as I had a blast with the synergy those two units had).

They went from having a brisk 25-ish Elven unit entries to 11 unit entries in "Wanderers"--and that's with them gaining the "Sisters of the Watch"(Sisters of Avelorn renamed).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baron Klatz wrote:
@Kanluwen,
HEY! Spoilers man!

Note how I gave a description of the unit, not anything about the battles or the like.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Bretonnians? Easily covered by historical plastics. Problem solved

Historical plastics are often better quality too. Fireforge Miniatures Tuetonics and Perry Miniatures Wars of the Roses for instance.

And also, you know, the wrong scale entirely. Even GW's Bretonnians were barely in-scale with more modern human fantasy plastics, and they still looked totally out of place next to historicals.

Answer = don't buy the poorly scaled GW stuff.

Damn, what a stunning insight, now all I need to do is create an entirely new mathematics, use it to devise a workable concept of time travel, invent a machine that enables me to exploit said concept, then travel back into the past to tell my five year old self that rather than starting a collection of GW figures for the setting I found interesting and which would grow into my favourite fantasy world, I should wait and base my collection on historicals plastics that wouldn't exist for another 15 years. Genius!

Or perhaps you meant I should throw away the thousands of pounds worth and thousands of hours of effort worth of models I presently own and just pull a couple of grand out of my arse to rebuy a vaguely-equivalent amount of models from historicals companies? That would also be a supremely reasonable and extremely clever suggestion

I use myself as an example, but of course I'm hardly alone in already having a pretty substantial collection of GW figures, and I'm also hardly alone in preferring to maintain a consistent scale and aesthetic across that collection regardless of which company I buy the models from. You don't like heroic scale - that's nice, some of us do, or are willing to tolerate it because of other aspects of the design we like. Clamber down off that skyscraper-esque high horse of yours before you suffer oxygen deprivation.

Don't take yr GW bitterness out on others. Regards.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Chikout wrote:

Gw redisgned Dark elves and they didnt fly off the shelves. Looking back that 2 month release seemed like a last chance for warhammer. We can argue about why it didnt work (price, ugly horses) but Gw tried a major reboot of a fantasy range with a similar number of new kits to the dark eldar reboot which didnt do the business for them. That said The dark elves have largely survived so there is still hope for them.

Strictly speaking, the reason why Dark Elves didn't "fly off the shelves" is that the book wasn't that strong. None of the stuff that got resculpts was really awe-inspiring, statwise, to begin with.

I'm prety sure it was price that sunk the Dark Elves' big "reboot". Dark Eldar at the time had alot of new kits that were actully cheaper then other plastic kits of the time. A box of 10 witches or warriors was less then a box of 10 tacticals at the time. These kits were able to make both a troop and elite choice. Their new vehicle kits were the same or slightly less then that of alot of SM vehicles at the time also. Their prices were at a level that people were buying them just because of how cool they looked.

The Dark elf release gave us two boxes of infantry that were $60/$70 for 10 models.... That's REALY expensive for plastic infantry models. $70 for a core unit like Witch Elves was insane! I recall Dark Elf players being upset because they were hoping witch elves would go down in price, but instead the new plastic models were slightly more expensive they the metal/finecast models they replaced!

My anecdotes observations, was that generally alot of people did like the new model's. But no one realy wanted to even consider starting the army due to the expensive prices of the new kits.Only people who already owned dark elfs were bought anything, and even then not much since they already had most of everything they wanted.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Bretonnians? Easily covered by historical plastics. Problem solved

Historical plastics are often better quality too. Fireforge Miniatures Tuetonics and Perry Miniatures Wars of the Roses for instance.

And also, you know, the wrong scale entirely. Even GW's Bretonnians were barely in-scale with more modern human fantasy plastics, and they still looked totally out of place next to historicals.

Answer = don't buy the poorly scaled GW stuff.

Damn, what a stunning insight, now all I need to do is create an entirely new mathematics, use it to devise a workable concept of time travel, invent a machine that enables me to exploit said concept, then travel back into the past to tell my five year old self that rather than starting a collection of GW figures for the setting I found interesting and which would grow into my favourite fantasy world, I should wait and base my collection on historicals plastics that wouldn't exist for another 15 years. Genius!

Or perhaps you meant I should throw away the thousands of pounds worth and thousands of hours of effort worth of models I presently own and just pull a couple of grand out of my arse to rebuy a vaguely-equivalent amount of models from historicals companies? That would also be a supremely reasonable and extremely clever suggestion

I use myself as an example, but of course I'm hardly alone in already having a pretty substantial collection of GW figures, and I'm also hardly alone in preferring to maintain a consistent scale and aesthetic across that collection regardless of which company I buy the models from. You don't like heroic scale - that's nice, some of us do, or are willing to tolerate it because of other aspects of the design we like. Clamber down off that skyscraper-esque high horse of yours before you suffer oxygen deprivation.

Don't take yr GW bitterness out on others. Regards.

Don't respond to people with snarky, unhelpful comments and expect that to go unremarked. Regards. Sincerely. Much love. TTFN.

Indeed, and that's why you got an exalt from me. (It was also pretty funny)

But yeah, I have a huge collection of Bretonnians as they're my main army and other miniatures (besides GameZone) don't really match up well.

I rectified the problem however by kitbashing high elves and Stormcasts as my future AoS Bretonnians.

I basically went from buying one faction to three and any new models for either of them will only help my Bret force.

I'd say the take-away here is no old army, no faction is safe.

Stock up on SoBs and Inquisition now...

Chikout wrote:
Gw redisgned Dark elves and they didnt fly off the shelves.

If I may ask what make you think that?

Thought I can only be talking for myself here, the new DE models were by far some of the best sellers we had in WFB, and while keeping in mind that they are older they totally outsold 40K Harlequins here for example. I can go back 5 years to compare all of the WFB sales we had and despite the DE redesign being far younger than that I still have 5 best sellers kits in that range, and actually my second best selling WFB kit in term of number of boxes are the Warlocks (I think they're called in English?) just behind the VC skeletons. Though if it wasn't for the slowdown caused by AoS the Putrid Blightkings would be there now.

Of course we may be an oddity as we managed to revitalize WFB a few years back and as such were benefiting for sales numbers for that game that may be quite different from a lot of other stores, at least judging by what I can get for Internet feedback. Also everything is relative as our best selling WFB kits pale in comparison of our best selling 40K kits (I don't think there is anything for any game that I've seen even remotely challenging the Imperial Knight in term of success for example). But I will challenge the idea that the DE redesign didn't make them fly off the shelves, as there were for us the most well received WFB army of all of the most recent ones.

I sincerely hope we'll get at least two different Start Collecting for DE, the way VC did.

Aye Kan, I just fear she'll be a Goddess and nothing else, of course if I'm wrong and she gets an awesome new model.. I will need to make three critical Willpower saves in a row to avoid rushing off to the shops.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I'd say the take-away here is no old army, no faction is safe.

Stock up on SoBs and Inquisition now...

I wouldn't say that. I mean sure, SoBs, but I kinda think that if that was going to happen they'd've done it by now. I'm just glad that my two fav WE models aren't going away.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I'd say the take-away here is no old army, no faction is safe.

Stock up on SoBs and Inquisition now...

I wouldn't say that. I mean sure, SoBs, but I kinda think that if that was going to happen they'd've done it by now. I'm just glad that my two fav WE models aren't going away.

yet.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I'd say the take-away here is no old army, no faction is safe.

Stock up on SoBs and Inquisition now...

I wouldn't say that. I mean sure, SoBs, but I kinda think that if that was going to happen they'd've done it by now. I'm just glad that my two fav WE models aren't going away.

Hmm? The =I= line is down to less than half what it once was, all finecast or metal, no new releases for the online codex...

I'd say the writing is on the wall.

Waaargh wrote:
The minis have been there for years, 10+, yelling at GW for not selling them anymore is harsh.

That's the spirit! feth all the people who have just recently got into playing those factions in the last couple of years!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Wood Elves lost an entire subfaction that was within their ranks(Sylvaneth), basically every one of their heroes, one of their most amazing units(Waywatchers are no longer units but now Heroes only--bonus for me as I had 15 of them and a Waywatcher Lord to begin with), and several of their 'okay' units(Glade Riders are gone, Wardancers are gone--I'm kinda pissed most about the loss of Hunting Hounds and Orion as I had a blast with the synergy those two units had).

They went from having a brisk 25-ish Elven unit entries to 11 unit entries in "Wanderers"--and that's with them gaining the "Sisters of the Watch"(Sisters of Avelorn renamed).

It is interesting times for the Elves. My Handmaiden of the Everqueen and Alarielle models are now bust - but I think that they will do just fine as a Waystrider (Handmaiden has a big spear and a bow, just like the profile for this unit) and a Spellweaver (floaty woman caster) respectively. The biggest disappointment is that I lose the Handmaiden's synergy with the Sisters (automatically letting them re-roll 1s to hit within 8" of her), and the best that they can get in-faction is a replacement of the same ability that is a Command Ability. Not sure I want to waste my general slot on a 5 wound, 4+ save infantry hero...

To be fair, relatively few of the Elven units get much benefit from Command Abilities or synergy at this point. Phoenix Guard get nothing really worth having from an Anointed, Swordmasters are on their own (though both they and the Archmages remain solid, so not too bad), the Darkling Coven models seem relatively free of synergy. On the other hand, the Loremaster, Archmage, Luminark and Hurricanium all got their synergies opened up to all Order units...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I'd say the take-away here is no old army, no faction is safe.

Stock up on SoBs and Inquisition now...

I wouldn't say that. I mean sure, SoBs, but I kinda think that if that was going to happen they'd've done it by now. I'm just glad that my two fav WE models aren't going away.

Hmm? The =I= line is down to less than half what it once was, all finecast or metal, no new releases for the online codex...

I'd say the writing is on the wall.

Lets wonder what GW defenders will say. Oh they were an army of negative stereotypes, Oh metal is just awful, and the best one they were female space marines anyway.

I should run a book.

Baron Klatz wrote:
The Bretonnians might not make a return though but a little mixing of future free people and aelves will fix that.

What free people?

Herzlos wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
The Bretonnians might not make a return though but a little mixing of future free people and aelves will fix that.

What free people?

The Empire humans have become "Free Peoples".

Looks like humans get to join in the fun in the next Realmgate Wars book next week. The Candlemen, interesting name. Color me curious.

Now only about 4-5 items available out of the 90 listed on Friday. Some really iconic models now gone :( Managed to pick up a few items thankfully but missed out on the Kurt Hellborg model sadly..that was one of the first to sell out and it's understandable to see why...lovely model

I still have to wonder, at the risk of sounding too much like a conspiracy theorist, if this is a hamfisted GW attempt at sabotaging Mantic's converts from WHFB by starving the ability to buy WHFB figures for KoW use.

It wouldn't be hard to imagine a world where GW fully intended to make the effort to keep the legacy armies alive in the AoS setting, but after seeing the death of WHFB (seemingly) play so much more in Mantic's favor than GW's, they decided that if they can't have them, noone can.

I mean, if you are GW, it's gotta hurt to see 90% of KoW games, photos, and video batreps featuring nearly a total use of the figures you are trying to sell a completely new and revamped game system for. Even Stormcast see a large use as Ogres.

Trying to see a reason WHFB couldn't make enough money with these figures when a product from another company can, or at least at face value to the average fan seems to do better.

But they're not trying to sell a rules system, because they're giving it away for free.
They're trying to sell minis (which has been pointed out ad infinitum).
If people are buying GW minis, then I doubt GW really care what for.
Obviously yes, playing GW games with them keeps people on the reservation, but if they're playing a Mantic game using rules Mantic gave away for free and giving GW their money instead of Mantic, I don't think they'll be too upset.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I still have to wonder, at the risk of sounding too much like a conspiracy theorist, if this is a hamfisted GW attempt at sabotaging Mantic's converts from WHFB by starving the ability to buy WHFB figures for KoW use.

It wouldn't be hard to imagine a world where GW fully intended to make the effort to keep the legacy armies alive in the AoS setting, but after seeing the death of WHFB (seemingly) play so much more in Mantic's favor than GW's, they decided that if they can't have them, noone can.

I mean, if you are GW, it's gotta hurt to see 90% of KoW games, photos, and video batreps featuring nearly a total use of the figures you are trying to sell a completely new and revamped game system for. Even Stormcast see a large use as Ogres.

Trying to see a reason WHFB couldn't make enough money with these figures when a product from another company can, or at least at face value to the average fan seems to do better.

They both make more off the models then the rule books. It would be in GW's interest to keep selling the best generic fantesy models on the market and make money off that.

All they did was create demand for more generic orks, dwarfs, elfs, ect. If Wargames Factory wasn't out of the game now they could be raking it in lol

RoperPG wrote:
But they're not trying to sell a rules system, because they're giving it away for free.
They're trying to sell minis (which has been pointed out ad infinitum).
If people are buying GW minis, then I doubt GW really care what for.
Obviously yes, playing GW games with them keeps people on the reservation, but if they're playing a Mantic game using rules Mantic gave away for free and giving GW their money instead of Mantic, I don't think they'll be too upset.

Ok, technically the rules are not for sale. Just everything else in the rules section.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
But they're not trying to sell a rules system, because they're giving it away for free.
They're trying to sell minis (which has been pointed out ad infinitum).
If people are buying GW minis, then I doubt GW really care what for.
Obviously yes, playing GW games with them keeps people on the reservation, but if they're playing a Mantic game using rules Mantic gave away for free and giving GW their money instead of Mantic, I don't think they'll be too upset.

Ok, technically the rules are not for sale. Just everything else in the rules section.

Your Logical Fallacy is: Appeal to GW being a business.
It's exactly the same with Mantic. Basics for free, extras cost more. Are we really that entitled *already* that a company charging for rules is seen as a bad thing?
GW 'win' if you play Mantic stuff with their minis, so doing what you suggested doesn't make sense.
As far as Kings of War is concerned, it's business as usual. People will play it using minis they bought from a different company.

Who know's what GW is thinking in regards to KoW. They might like it, because people are still buying models, they might not like it because traditionally GW have preferred having a closed ecosystem where they pretend their customers don't even know alternatives exist.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Who know's what GW is thinking in regards to KoW. They might like it, because people are still buying models, they might not like it because traditionally GW have preferred having a closed ecosystem where they pretend their customers don't even know alternatives exist.

GW is a company that had 'commissars' who would walk into stores and fire all staff, and who call their staff the greatest threat to their business. They have removed names from everything, meaning sculptors and writers can't really make a name for themselves in the community while working there.

I think it would be very reasonable to assume that GW's management would consider anyone who used to be a big name at GW working in other companies to be a traitor and a horrible person.

This is just sad. :(

 Wulfson_40K wrote:

Chikout wrote:
Gw redisgned Dark elves and they didnt fly off the shelves.

If I may ask what make you think that?

The quick answer? The sheer need to justify GW's decision by any means necessary.


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Exactly. Which is why it baffles me that GW is doing this. They should use Kings of War to sell more miniatures.