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Honest question...

i just thought of it, what do you think he would of fought of Marx

do you think he would of saw communism as a serious vital thing for human survival?

do you think he would of appreciated Karl Marx?

Well given that the Great Crusade and the Imperial Truth isn't based upon Marx's socialist ideas and the Emperor having seen much of mankind's folly throughout millennia I'm guessing he may have respected Marx's philosophical inquiries but found them wanting in terms of practical application since he would have seen its failure of implementation in Russia and other places.

 Grimskul wrote:
Well given that the Great Crusade and the Imperial Truth isn't based upon Marx's socialist ideas and the Emperor having seen much of mankind's folly throughout millennia I'm guessing he may have respected Marx's philosophical inquiries but found them wanting in terms of practical application since he would have seen its failure of implementation in Russia and other places.

This is just about as good as you'll get for a response in my opinion.

Not sure what the corpse emperor would think but Marx and the IoM are not compatible at all. Marx view on religion alone would make him a dangerous heretic and his ideas of Feudalism would not do him any good either.


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I am pretty sure that marx his books would be illegal in the IoM.

Marx strived to establish the philosophical basis of a system that would end classism in all its form. The Emperor considered himself superior to normal human and wanted to rule over them in a absolutist fashion. To Marx, he is even worst than the capitalist bourgeoisie. He is a feudal tyrant.

The Emperor on his side would consider Marx ideal as absurd because this would mean he would have no power to rule over humanity. He might consider it as folly since he probably doesn't think that «human nature» so to speak is compatible with the ideal of communism. Let's face it human are, at his eyes, fundamentaly greedy, self interested and distrustful of one another.

Publishing "Opium des Volkes" like phrases in the IoM would be a blast : P

The Emperor would empathize more with Friedrich Nietzsche's concept of the Ubermensch.

Marx strived to establish the philosophical basis of a system that would end classism in all its form. The Emperor considered himself superior to normal human and wanted to rule over them in a absolutist fashion. To Marx, he is even worst than the capitalist bourgeoisie. He is a feudal tyrant.

The Emperor on his side would consider Marx ideal as absurd because this would mean he would have no power to rule over humanity. He might consider it as folly since he probably doesn't think that «human nature» so to speak is compatible with the ideal of communism. Let's face it human are, at his eyes, fundamentaly greedy, self interested and distrustful of one another.

I think its a little wrong to suggest that the Emperor wanted to rule and be a tyrant. It took him ~38,000 to decide to take the helm of mankind. Before that he was working in the background (it was suggested that he was seen as influential characters throughout history but kept his real identity secret. It was out of necessity that he took control, you could say he was reluctant. Also, he seemed to know the sacrifice he would have to make to defeat horus and live for thousands of years on the golden throne half-dead (the last church novella)... so both of these suggest he is trying his best on mankinds behalf and he would probably give his life if would would save mankind : )

Does a tyrant do that?

So I think he would have a good discussion with Marx.... but would (with 38000 years of experience (or 48000 if he was talking from his throne )) point out several floors.... i.e. the Human condition

The mass centralisation of power and resources in the hands of the state would be something the Emperor would enjoy. Furthermore, the idea that a single person or entity makes better choices than the people is also something that would appeal to him.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Not sure what the corpse emperor would think but Marx and the IoM are not compatible at all. Marx view on religion alone would make him a dangerous heretic and his ideas of Feudalism would not do him any good either.


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I am pretty sure that marx his books would be illegal in the IoM.

The Imperial Truth is enforced atheism though. The Emperor would have approved.

bolter_fodder wrote:

Marx strived to establish the philosophical basis of a system that would end classism in all its form. The Emperor considered himself superior to normal human and wanted to rule over them in a absolutist fashion. To Marx, he is even worst than the capitalist bourgeoisie. He is a feudal tyrant.

The Emperor on his side would consider Marx ideal as absurd because this would mean he would have no power to rule over humanity. He might consider it as folly since he probably doesn't think that «human nature» so to speak is compatible with the ideal of communism. Let's face it human are, at his eyes, fundamentaly greedy, self interested and distrustful of one another.

I think its a little wrong to suggest that the Emperor wanted to rule and be a tyrant. It took him ~38,000 to decide to take the helm of mankind. Before that he was working in the background (it was suggested that he was seen as influential characters throughout history but kept his real identity secret. It was out of necessity that he took control, you could say he was reluctant. Also, he seemed to know the sacrifice he would have to make to defeat horus and live for thousands of years on the golden throne half-dead (the last church novella)... so both of these suggest he is trying his best on mankinds behalf and he would probably give his life if would would save mankind : )

Does a tyrant do that?

So I think he would have a good discussion with Marx.... but would (with 38000 years of experience (or 48000 if he was talking from his throne )) point out several floors.... i.e. the Human condition

I would disagree with your assessment of the Emperor personality. He nver took the helm in person because he didn't have the means to achieve it. He didn't have his army and his pawns all in place. He didn't knew enough about his ennemies to do so. In his own mind, the Emperor may think that he was relunctant to seize power, that he did it only because the situation was dire and the world needed his guidance. This is exactly how tyrant perceive themselves. They think they alone have the solution to the problem and that without them, it will consume humanity. The truth is, many human population were fine and even better prepared to fight the power of Chaos than his Imperium. The Emperor, like most tyrants had delusion of grandeur. He is doing his best to save mankind (at least his vision of it), much like no one can argue that Hitler was trying to save Germany (at least his vision of it). Both were willing to die to see their vision succeed and perpatuate itself and both are ready to kill every living human should they stray away from his vision of mankind. Does a good man that strives to protect mankind order the slaughters of millions to give a lesson to one of his general for conquering planet to slowly for his expectation?

I would disagree with your assessment of the Emperor personality. He nver took the helm in person because he didn't have the means to achieve it. He didn't have his army and his pawns all in place. He didn't knew enough about his ennemies to do so. In his own mind, the Emperor may think that he was relunctant to seize power, that he did it only because the situation was dire and the world needed his guidance. This is exactly how tyrant perceive themselves. They think they alone have the solution to the problem and that without them, it will consume humanity. The truth is, many human population were fine and even better prepared to fight the power of Chaos than his Imperium. The Emperor, like most tyrants had delusion of grandeur. He is doing his best to save mankind (at least his vision of it), much like no one can argue that Hitler was trying to save Germany (at least his vision of it). Both were willing to die to see their vision succeed and perpatuate itself and both are ready to kill every living human should they stray away from his vision of mankind. Does a good man that strives to protect mankind order the slaughters of millions to give a lesson to one of his general for conquering planet to slowly for his expectation?

Might be going a little astray on this topic... so I won't totally disagree.

You make good points. But I think Emps could have conquered earth waaaaaaaaaay before he did if he had wanted to. With his power he could have command armies vast. I believe it was the rise of the psikers that finally pushed him to do it since they posed a singular threat (chaos related) over and above the normal human. One major difference between hitler and Emps: Hitler committed suicide when he realised he was going to lose. Emps sacrificed himself gaining a stalemate (can't quite call it victory).

I am not arguing he is perfect, but he needed to do what he did until he had finished his work on the webway. At which point (more or less) humanity would be free of the need for the warp and far better equiped then any other strand of humanity before or since to deal with chaos.

Someone who heralded in the deaths of 100 million people with an ideology that sought to replace religion?

He'd love it.

Uh, guys?

The Emperor was Karl Marx. That experiment failed, which is why the Imperium isn't socialist.

Uh, guys?

The Emperor was Karl Marx. That experiment failed, which is why the Imperium isn't socialist.

so, in that case he would probably look back at his former self and, while slowly drawing his sword, say: "it's time..... for that beard to come off"


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So that solves the riddle of why big E has no beard...

The emperors original vision for humanity didn't seem that bad. Had Horus not fell and incapacitated him humanity would likely be living in a near paradise.

By the time the Great Crusade came around, Marx had been dead for over 28,000 years. The Emperor, having been born in 8000 BC, certainly would have been aware of Marx, and every other person of historic note, and many more who are forgotten already, here in M3, and if he borrowed any of the concepts in Das Kapital or The Communist Manifesto, they aren't really showing in the Imperium of M40.

Nothing of the real modern world survives into M40, excepting fragments of shards of forgotten stories and legends, and all because the GW writers like tossing in tidbits of reality into the setting. In actuality? Using a 21st century reference in M40 would be like trying to make a reference to life in the Pleistocene era today. So much time has passed between the "now" of the real world and the "then" of M40 that they would consider us a fictional creation, like the Hyborians of R. E. Howard.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The emperors original vision for humanity didn't seem that bad. Had Horus not fell and incapacitated him humanity would likely be living in a near paradise.

The Emperor is just an Ethereal in disguise. He sacrificed millions and billions for the Greater Good (the Greater Good being a galactic paradise).

In the Last Church the Emperor says that he took the form of many important figures in history in his many attempts to guide humanity (iirc). So yes, it is very well possible that Furyou Miko is correct and that Karl Marx and the Emperor are one and the same.

It's also important to recognize that trying to import any 21st or earlier values to the 40k universe is futile. This is a universe were knowledge is literally dangerous. Putting stones in the wrong order or reading the wrong book can end the world. I can't think of any current political model that can deal with that.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's also important to recognize that trying to import any 21st or earlier values to the 40k universe is futile. This is a universe were knowledge is literally dangerous. Putting stones in the wrong order or reading the wrong book can end the world. I can't think of any current political model that can deal with that.

Neither can I, but the Republicans or the Tories can sell you one for the low, low price of key public services!

What do you think the Emperor would of thought of Karl Marx?

he would say, thanks god that Karl Marx was failed, because if he did succeeded with his communist ideology of ruling and uniting the world,

the emperor of mankind at 40k would not be the god of man kind what he is now,
instead he probably only become a low class worker at some factory making the 40k suit for the Red Space Blood Army and IDOLIZING KARL MARX or KIM JONG UN or STALIN as the god of mankind instead, and get mutated at later day by the government of the communist imperium of mankind. haha

but before he get mutated he turn away from the imperium of mankind and join the sparatist army, which is the chaos army who rebel for seeking an equal opportunity to do capitalist bussiness and free from the oppression of the RED SPACE BLOOD ARMY.

LightKing wrote:
Honest question...

i just thought of it, what do you think he would of fought of Marx

do you think he would of saw communism as a serious vital thing for human survival?

do you think he would of appreciated Karl Marx?

Marx (and his ideology) would've been viewed by the Master of Mankind as just another political and social failure, among the numerous failures in Mankind's history.

Nothing more.

Emps was Marx

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's also important to recognize that trying to import any 21st or earlier values to the 40k universe is futile. This is a universe were knowledge is literally dangerous. Putting stones in the wrong order or reading the wrong book can end the world. I can't think of any current political model that can deal with that.

People forget this too often

epronovost wrote:
Marx strived to establish the philosophical basis of a system that would end classism in all its form. The Emperor considered himself superior to normal human and wanted to rule over them in a absolutist fashion. To Marx, he is even worst than the capitalist bourgeoisie. He is a feudal tyrant.

The Emperor on his side would consider Marx ideal as absurd because this would mean he would have no power to rule over humanity. He might consider it as folly since he probably doesn't think that «human nature» so to speak is compatible with the ideal of communism. Let's face it human are, at his eyes, fundamentaly greedy, self interested and distrustful of one another.

yeah, this.

 ChazSexington wrote:
The mass centralisation of power and resources in the hands of the state would be something the Emperor would enjoy. Furthermore, the idea that a single person or entity makes better choices than the people is also something that would appeal to him.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Not sure what the corpse emperor would think but Marx and the IoM are not compatible at all. Marx view on religion alone would make him a dangerous heretic and his ideas of Feudalism would not do him any good either.


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I am pretty sure that marx his books would be illegal in the IoM.

The Imperial Truth is enforced atheism though. The Emperor would have approved.

This isn't my point. He might have liked the guy or even have been the guy who knows. It doesn't really matter if the emperor liked him or not, he doesn't rule his imperium other do it for him. He is just a corpse in a fancy chair.
What does matter is how the current ruling class of the imperium would look at the idea's of marks. I don't think that those in power of a religious system would in a distopian future would like marx to spread word about alternative power structures and the evil that is religion and oppression by the ruling class.
Men have been branded a heretic and an enemy of the imperium for far less.

There may very well be communist worlds in the imperium. Remember all Terra cares about is worshiping the Emperor and paying the tithes of man and materials. Assuming those flow regularly, it's up to the individual governors to figure out how to order their world.

 Harriticus wrote:
Someone who heralded in the deaths of 100 million people with an ideology that sought to replace religion?

He'd love it.

Marx never was a leader and didn't run around with around with a machine gun.

The more you know.

Kim Il-sung the first president/dictator/god of north korea still named as the ETERNAL PRESIDENT of NORTH KOREA even if he is already dead.

febriannas wrote:
Kim Il-sung the first president/dictator/god of north korea still named as the ETERNAL PRESIDENT of NORTH KOREA even if he is already dead.

I think the lore of the Emperor was written in 1987, long before the 1994 death of kim il sung. I always assumed it was based on the king Arthur legend.