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It was released 25 years ago. It's a mass market board game, it's not like it just disappears, kids will be discovering copies in their parents' attics today. I was very young when it was released but played with a hand-me-down in my pre-teen years, it was my first experience with 40k. I think it's more well-known than you realise.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
With this logic so should not exist fantasy female fighters with armour that would kill them if they moved, cannot be realistically attached on them or really have no point of been there.
I see no practical difference in your line and this (skill aside) for all terms and purposes for me you are a competitor dragging a rival down.
And I am expecting from people who represent companies to be professional in a public discussion.
And that's fine, believe what you like? You seem to be presenting something as an argument but I'm not arguing with you. You are more than welcome to consider our product sexist. Perhaps do it in a thread 'about' our product though?
And, just like your ridiculous straw man during the FF threads, Prodos is 'not' a rival of ours. All miniature companies are not just automatic rivals against one another? We definitely do not aim at the same target market as far as this product is concerned
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
Wulfmar wrote: Well, as fun as this all is. Anyone else reminded of Nigels mother in the film 'Brain Dead' towards the end when she tries to consume him with that horrific 'come to mummy Nigel' line when they see the Daemons with the mouth running down their belly?
Obscure B movie reference I know (same director as LOTR believe it or not). I wonder if the sculptor had been inspired by it
Now that you mention it, I could definitely see some influence there. Took me a minute to realise what movie you were talking about, as it's called Dead Alive in the states.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am sorry but what constitutes a sexist sculpt and what constitutes nonsense is in the eye of the beholder, run many of HF sculpts on the "female armour bingo", of a well known site criticizing sexism in the gaming genre and you will get high scores indeed (if the sites view is right or wrong is debatable, but gives another perspective).
So no, I do not buy your line, ours are sexy theirs are sexist, they plunder well known IP we..... you what? many of HF sculpts blatantly use others IP.
You do not see me complain about either because I either don't care or like the end result, but I am expecting you to understand you have no moral high grounds in judging others for the things you and the company you represent do yourself.
I have no dog in this fight as I am no sculptor and work for neither company, but felt like commenting here. I have seen hasslefrees sculpts before and have said to myself "another company making sexy models ", then i see these models and . They are worlds apart in quality of both concept and execution, to compare them to each other is ridiculous. About the only thing that they have in common is that they are scale representations of humanoids, HF models have breasts, waists and hips while Prodos has melons and twigs. There is no comparing the two of them. While I just recently (friday) bought my first HF miniatures (on clearance at a LGS), I have seen many of their sculpts and thought about buying them before. These models (Prodos) are trash. The demonettes/ female chaos warriors are good (only good), and I could see fielding some of those, but the rest are just as tacked on as the boobs themselves. HF may have sculpted the topless gladiator that looks like it could fit well into a bloodbowl team, but they didn't make a board game named BlOOdBowl (BOOB) and fill it with crap models just to try and pay other bills. They make quality models of lots of genres and sell them to fill a niche for respectable gamers. I don't see this as a grudge against another company so much as one company in an industry trying to hold the line against another company that threatens the industry's way of life. Prodos are giving the gaming community a black eye with putting this crap out there. Kingdom Death isn't much better, but at least their stuff is finely detailed and artistic. this stuff is just nonsense and deserves to be binned before it's even produced.
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
Edit: damn by verbosity, everywhere!
Again, if you can't see the difference then there's no point in arguing. It's fairly obvious to me, and despite your assertations, it seems fairly obvious to most people in this and every other thread I've seen about this product. I'm fine with you thinking otherwise, the world would be a boring place if people didn't, but this will remain sexist dogshit regardless.
Should I be starting a thread about me myself at this point? People seem far more interested in me than the product at hand.
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
You realise he said FANTASTY fighter, right? Not historical? He didn't make that argument, you made it for him.
And, just like your ridiculous straw man during the FF threads, Prodos is 'not' a rival of ours. All miniature companies are not just automatic rivals against one another? We definitely do not aim at the same target market as far as this product is concerned
Right, because attacking Scale Games in the FF thread of not showing the actual models and not apologizing when proven wrong was a healthy logical reaction.
I find more strawman your defense than me accusing you on attacking other companies.
Are the chronically obese Nurgling things (the squat small ones) available separately? If so what's the costing?
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Again, if you can't see the difference then there's no point in arguing. It's fairly obvious to me, and despite your assertations, it seems fairly obvious to most people in this and every other thread I've seen about this product. I'm fine with you thinking otherwise, the world would be a boring place if people didn't, but this will remain sexist dogshit regardless.
Should I be starting a thread about me myself at this point? People seem far more interested in me than the product at hand.
Again, just because some opinions line up with yours, doesn't mean all opinions do. And that definitely does not make your opinion a fact.
Regardless, ending this line of discussion. Responding to some artist I've never heard of throwing shade at a game I have little interest in seems to be a rather large waste of time.
And, just like your ridiculous straw man during the FF threads, Prodos is 'not' a rival of ours. All miniature companies are not just automatic rivals against one another? We definitely do not aim at the same target market as far as this product is concerned
Right, because attacking Scale Games in the FF thread of not showing the actual models and not apologizing when proven wrong was a healthy logical reaction.
I find more strawman your defense than me accusing you on attacking other companies.
What are you talking about now? Did you miss the part where I wasn't wrong in the slightest? I was proven 100% right about them lying about the size of their miniatures, they 'changed' that size and openly admitted it.
Are you writing my biography or something? Is there anything else other than this product you'd like to have a chat about? I really like movies if you fancy wibbling about those?
Okay, yes, you made bikini warriors in space, but with hard to believe it works powered armor parts without supporting structures except you PG-13 versions.
Powered boots/greaves with nothing to help power and support them, as well as the arms/shoulders, with no further connection parts/cables/servos and support frame makes for albeit useless armor, unless they are simply scantily clad super human females wearing ornate armor while exposing their internals in some reckless fashion?
Hasslefree fantasy realm figures well, folks fought naked, semi-naked, and armored in various forms as they felt would suit their fighting styles, but presenting the ladies you did in the powered armored crusaders, yet half naked in space where it it so cold, etc, well, they have to be impervious super beings then.
Your PG-13 armored gal is also showing too little waist end support, sorry, but armor hides feminity in real life. This line is pure out and out cheesecake fantasy and should be sold as such, be real here. I like cheesecake, but more so if it makes sense like the daemon troops for the opposing army for those females it makes a bit more sense, especially as they are not trying to wear honking unreal armor, (well the oblits maybe silly) but the rest of the daemon gals seem to be better "balanced"
"Your mumblings are awakening the sleeping Dragon, be wary when meddling the affairs of Dragons, for thou art tasty and go good with either ketchup or chocolate. "
Dragons fear nothing, if it acts up, we breath magic fire that turns them into marshmallow peeps. We leaguers only cry rivets!
God damn it, Nurglings people. Separate or in the set only? How much?
EDIT: Just saw a reply - thanks gunslingpro
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/14 13:42:27
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
You realise he said FANTASTY fighter, right? Not historical? He didn't make that argument, you made it for him.
He's right about what I meant, a brainfart on my part. The sentence doesn't even make sense if I'd meant fantasy and I hadn't even noticed I'd said it until you brought it up.
No, as I said on BOW its a blunt product that is aimed at an extremely narrow target audience that is known to be big spenders, good on them if it succeeds, if it does not it should be problematic depending on how much they invested on it.
The only noteworthy part of it been the huge disproportionate reaction it got in comparison to other similar products.
And if you was not acting the way you acted in this thread I would not bother commenting really.
Crap sculpts get called out all the time on Dakka. Rightly so.
It keeps being said and I think it is being missed: Compare the Crusaders against the not demons. The Crusaders are sub par sculpts in what should be a fairly unified range artistically. Compare against Warzone (A Prodos product) and the Crusader sculpts look even worse.
Prodos then claim that these figures are sexy (their words). Cheesecake and beging to defend their line with lionks to other companies minis. Compared to nude or partial nude figures supplied by other firms and Prodos look lacking again. Their vision is, at best, something from the eighties.
If I wanted cheescake at its most base I wouldn't even consider the artist prodos have used.
Actually, the first thing that drew me to this thread was wondering how someone was getting away with not only blatant not-space marines (which is a widely done thing), but actually literally using an old GW game's name as theirs.
And then my next though was, "really? Half nude not-Space Marines on top of all that? Huh?"
It's be like having a game between half-nude armies on a giant vinyl hex map, and calling it Battle Masters.
Maybe that's my penance for being an over-30 gamer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/14 13:52:27
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
You realise he said FANTASTY fighter, right? Not historical? He didn't make that argument, you made it for him.
I think he worded it poorly because he said "fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist". Obviously they don't, if they're fantasy. Hence, I figured he was using "fantasy" to talk about history.
*edit* Oh, there we go, ninja'd.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/14 13:54:27
Out of interest, was this initially an advert for a product that's been finalised, or a bit of market research to see if it would be popular?
All this awkwardness aside, Prodos have changed (or are releasing alternative?) Sculpts after the backlash. Hence my question - final product then back-pedalling, or concept and then changing? Nothing necessarily wrong with either, heck, they reacted to what was said and listened (something I wish GW and even the current Tory Government would do, but that's an entirely other rant).
(And I'm actually on neither side here, both Artemis and Prodos do some cracking sculpts)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/14 13:58:13
PsychoticStorm wrote: The only noteworthy part of it been the huge disproportionate reaction it got in comparison to other similar products.
Yeah, using a name everyone's familiar with will do that. If they'd called it something else I doubt nearly as many people would give a gak, but even then you'd still have people saying where the hell is my KS stuff, Prodos.
Wulfmar wrote: Out of interest, was this initially an advert for a product that's been finalised, or a bit of market research to see if it would be popular?
Product has been finalized and is for presale on the Prodos webstore. Doesn't come out until June I believe, but the sculpts for individual sale are available either now or in the next month.
Now this escalated quite quickly. You're sure you want to waste your time arguing about this?
Prodos' Space Crusade line is clearly intended to a specific and particular public target. It's not for everyone, that's quite clear. You don't like them? Don't buy from them. There are plenty of other companies that makes miniatures more suited to your tastes.
It's especially uglier when someone from another company criticize their work while they aren't really in position to do so.
As for myself, I know from who I will buy - and I won't bother to try to launch a witch hunt against something that doesn't suit my own, personnal, tastes.
And yeah, I find these miniatures really funny...and quite of good quality. It seems like Prodos still listened and is making a "full armour" line. That's honestly a great idea; more choice is always better in that Golden Age of Miniatures.
So, thank you Prodos for bringing us that line.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/14 14:40:34
Guildsman wrote: "Today, students, we'll be learning how to alienate our customer base. We'll start with grotesque sexualization, and then move on to blatant insults towards the competition."
What an absolute trainwreck.
Yeah, Hasslefree is really going down the drain.
Oh, no, don't get the wrong idea. I was talking about Prodos and their ridiculous "adult" miniatures. Putting out the Bikini Legion and then trying to claim them as more artistic than other, better sculpted nude figures is a joke. Artemis might be rude and antagonistic (sorry, no two ways about that), but he's still right. Even if the AvP Kickstarter hadn't failed so poorly, I'd still write off buying anything from Prodos ever again.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
I honestly do not expect to be that many of us left that "fondly remember Space Crusade" its what? 25 years dead?, I said I think this name means almost nothing to most of the buyers base and I do not see than much comment on the Space Crusade part.
Without getting involved on your and Arty's slapfight, I find this statement amusing. True, Space Crusade was a long time ago now, but - like HeroQuest, the name still has quite a lot of value and worth. So you're simply wrong if you think it means nothing to "most" of the buyer base. How much did the HQ25 KS make in it's first days before it got C&D'ed off Kickstarter? How much did it still manage to make in the end, in it's final convoluted form on a Spanish crowdfunding site that most people wouldn't touch with a barge pole?
I don't know, if the wargamers of that era (35+) are the major force behind the market, then the hobby is in trouble, I am expecting a healthy 20-30 been the average hobbyist age which should render the name "Space Crusade" obscure to most, if I am mistaken and the main bulk of the hobby market is in the bracket of 35-40's then yes, it is not obscure at all, but I have some worries about the hobby.
Azazelx wrote: Without getting involved on your and Arty's slapfight, I find this statement amusing. True, Space Crusade was a long time ago now, but - like HeroQuest, the name still has quite a lot of value and worth. So you're simply wrong if you think it means nothing to "most" of the buyer base. How much did the HQ25 KS make in it's first days before it got C&D'ed off Kickstarter? How much did it still manage to make in the end, in it's final convoluted form on a Spanish crowdfunding site that most people wouldn't touch with a barge pole?
To be fair I have never heard of Space Crusade but I have heard of Hero Quest. I didn't know Space Crusade existed until this post when searching for information for gameplay on this game, the searches ended up taking you to Board Game Geek which wasn't this game (so that is confusing). I think on both sides of the topic what the name, value, worth and how known something is subjective. I'm not saying that I represent the majority of gamers but I think the assumption that "Space Crusade" is well known is based on the assumption or background of WH40K gamers. That assumes that WH40K gamers number more than other gamers and thus should have knowledge of the game. I mean people know of WH40K whether they play or not, but I wouldn't take that just because they know of WH40K they would know of board games like Space Crusade or Space Hulk over the WH40K brand. At least that is my opinion.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I don't know, if the wargamers of that era (35+) are the major force behind the market, then the hobby is in trouble, I am expecting a healthy 20-30 been the average hobbyist age which should render the name "Space Crusade" obscure to most, if I am mistaken and the main bulk of the hobby market is in the bracket of 35-40's then yes, it is not obscure at all, but I have some worries about the hobby.
We be the ones with the largest disposable income, so might well be, especially those with kids in the hobby as well. I didn't enjoy space crusade all that much to be honest. Still look back on it fondly though. Conjures up images of my grans wallpaper for some reason.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I don't know, if the wargamers of that era (35+) are the major force behind the market, then the hobby is in trouble, I am expecting a healthy 20-30 been the average hobbyist age which should render the name "Space Crusade" obscure to most, if I am mistaken and the main bulk of the hobby market is in the bracket of 35-40's then yes, it is not obscure at all, but I have some worries about the hobby.
Have you been to a Wargames show lately? Or a non-GW games store? Now the internet may skew overall customers to the younger where I can't see them, but I don't see huge numbers of younger gamers outside of GW.
Here's an interesting survey of 8k + respondents - I'm sure that the methodology isn't perfect, but it was fairly well publicised, and almost 50% are 40+ years old.
", then i see these models and 
. They are worlds apart in quality of both concept and execution, to compare them to each other is ridiculous. About the only thing that they have in common is that they are scale representations of humanoids, 
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / 
Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / 
Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / 
Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / 
Black Death 1500pts
& 
