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 Jancoran wrote:
You sir, are incorrect in you're lack of surety on the subject.

It works like a charm. Plus your alternative to doing so is terrible.

It's not terrible for BA. Not at all. As I said, I'm quite happy if my opponent null deploys.

If only Blood Angels WERE Skyhammers. Because then it would matter a lot more.

No, I mean transports work fine as a Skyhammer defense for BA. And for gladius marines, as well. No need to null deploy.

Well there is though. A Battle Company will have 30 scoring units to your...14.

So. Yeah. You need to be able to survive til later because frankly, they can and will get to where they need to go and at minimum challenge every objective. better to wait for them to try and pick them off than think some kind of alpha strike against random targets to start the game will reward the exposure you've created.

Battle Companies are not even close to a fair army to have to play, but even if they were, Null Deployment can even be important to you when you simply cannot gain numerical Superiority. It is insane that a Sapce Marine force can consist of 90-110 models in 1850, but that's where we be in the grand scheem of things. So Null Deployment allows you to hammer only the couple of objectives you ultimately want to take and then tie the rest.

I'd like to say that you could do better than that but not really. You have to essentially play the endgame from the turn go unless you're just feelin' sparky about pounding THIRTY units into the dust early. Good luck.

Survival against gladius isn't usually the struggle. So again, I don't see the need for null deployment there. Battle companies aren't that killy, so I don't see the benefit to having anything in reserves against them.

Martel732 wrote:
Survival against gladius isn't usually the struggle. So again, I don't see the need for null deployment there. Battle companies aren't that killy, so I don't see the benefit to having anything in reserves against them.

Interesting. So how many ghames have you won against the Battle Company? What were the scores?

Not many. But every game, win or lose has been very close. Battle company can't table me like Eldar or Tau can, so some of the BA "advantages" actually come into play. I've had 15 DC kill 60 tacs over the course of a game. Battle companies have very low firepower density, so they fall like dominoes to the DC. Not all the squads can have grav cannons. Those that do, get shot. Those that don't get DCed.

The blowouts for my BA are all coming from firepower based lists that don't have to move, don't have to think, have models that can't die like Riptides. Point and click and tell me how many red models to scoop up.

Martel732 wrote:
Not many. But every game, win or lose has been very close. Battle company can't table me like Eldar or Tau can, so some of the BA "advantages" actually come into play. I've had 15 DC kill 60 tacs over the course of a game. Battle companies have very low firepower density, so they fall like dominoes to the DC. Not all the squads can have grav cannons. Those that do, get shot. Those that don't get DCed.

The blowouts for my BA are all coming from firepower based lists that don't have to move, don't have to think, have models that can't die like Riptides. Point and click and tell me how many red models to scoop up.

Kay. So. Not many wins against them. Understandable. and and so you have a new tool now for dealing with them..and with Skyhammers. So use it or dont as the situation dictates but the concept is solid as rock.

Turn "Not many" into "More than not many".

I don't think it's that solid against all possible opponents. Piecemealing your list is not generally desirable. It is specifically useful against drop lists, but I don't think it's that good against the field.

As I said, I'd rather face null deploy than gunline of "you don't get to play".

Interceptor can really screw over the skyhammer. Coteaz really screws with them because he gets to intercept everyone of them as long as they land with in 12" of him. Tau can also intercept the crap out of that thing.

Raven wing support squadron - take the plasma speeder even lol.

 Galef wrote:
Aside from deploying the bikes tightly in a corner and reserving the WK, I can't think of any way to avoid losing half my army in the first turn to Skyhammer.

You answered yourself.

I played against a skyhammer last weekend with DA knight support. I reserved my WK and dark reapers. I spaced all of my infantry (avengers and banshees) exactly 2" apart limiting his ability to deep strike.

He landed and shredded lots of my infantry. I then wiped out all his grav guns (I did not care about the MM squad). He shot some more infantry. My reserves then came on the board and I tabled him.

So, you're running a template eldar + template GK? Congrats, that's exactly what skyhammer is designed to counter somewhat. But i really don't see much problems here. ASM still scatter and are not too great in melee. He'll need all hist stuff to down a WK in cover. If he doesn't, it's gona eat a unit or two per turn with it's shooting and stomping out of combat. DK are also tough for non-grav stuff.

If you want to not change the list, utilize reserves, cover and msu on your bikes hiding out of los from the rest of his army.

Martel732 wrote:
Not many. But every game, win or lose has been very close. Battle company can't table me like Eldar or Tau can, so some of the BA "advantages" actually come into play. I've had 15 DC kill 60 tacs over the course of a game. Battle companies have very low firepower density, so they fall like dominoes to the DC. Not all the squads can have grav cannons. Those that do, get shot. Those that don't get DCed.

The blowouts for my BA are all coming from firepower based lists that don't have to move, don't have to think, have models that can't die like Riptides. Point and click and tell me how many red models to scoop up.

That is a scenario the Skyhammer do not have, I used a skyhammer super friend list (supported by Librarian Conclave and CAD with a decked out Captain) in a recent local tournament, all games are either won by 11-1 or lost by 1-11

I agree; Skyhammer seems very feast or famine.

I don't think that Skyhammer is broken. It seems very fair and balanced as well as a nice way to make ASM and Devs playable. It just seems very Rock to my Scissors (or Scissors to my Paper, I can never tell).

Definitely gonna try scattering (pun intended) to the 4 corners of the board. What do you guys think are more valuable? A WK and 2 DKs or the Scatterbikes? If the Devs don't have Grav, the WK and Scatterbikes should deploy. Otherwise just the bikes, and the GK's can do their turn 1 DS thing (hopefully)

Even if the Devastators have twin-linked from Doctrines they only do 5.2-ish wounds on average to a WK in 4+ cover. Are there any ignores cover shenanigans going on?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Even if the Devastators have twin-linked from Doctrines they only do 5.2-ish wounds on average to a WK in 4+ cover. Are there any ignores cover shenanigans going on?

Marines generally lacking access to ignore cover for their monster hunter weapons,
but there are two specific ways to get that, one is "Hunter's eye" relic bearing character in White Scar army, it is only 20pts, if you are not using White Scar, take Librarians (better to be Tigirius), roll on divination and pray to the Emperor that you get "Perfect Timing", even better if you use that conclave, which makes Eldar denying you way harder as you success in casting on 2+, even they could have more warp dices than you. But generally saying against Eldar, I think invisibility is more important and you should let Tigirius roll on Telepathy while the rest two Libby fish for "perfect timing".