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I agree with Martel. When SW got I5 always on and AP2 no less, Strength 8 as well for ID purposes, utterly killed my love for BA in 40k. Still play it 30k and maybe if they get a new 40k Codex I'll revisit, but at the moment I'm going to focus on my Tau, Tyranids and Orks.

 tau tse tung wrote:
The guard are a shooting phase army and no one really hates them.

Exactly. The difference...Imperial Guard aren't known for copious amounts of Low AP Ignores Cover shooting. At least when IG was blowing you off the table, you got to roll saves. That difference matters...

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

Dear lord just stop. It has already been proven that grav DOES destroy riptides. Jeez.

Proven by whom? The anti-math league? With a toe in ruins and the fnp upgrade, it takes 15 grav wounds to kill a riptide. That's every shot from a centurion squad hitting and wounding. That's not very likely. It gets worse with the nova shield. So we are talking psyker buffs or another squad being necessary. That's nuts on a model as cheap as the riptide. And for what it does, the riptide is super cheap.

That explains the hate.

Lol so let me get this straight. 4 grav cents, which are the same price as a riptide, will kill it in one single round of shooting and you are saying thats not an effective method. Sure lol

4 Gravcents are 320 points and have 24" guns. Pretty sure Riptides are not 320 points.

Martel732 wrote:
Krak grenades can't be counted on to do anything to a riptide.

If you have 9 Krak Genades (assaulting with concussive):

9(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = That's 0.5W, after FNP that's 0.33W.

Do you really expect to remove it in one round? Nope.

Between a TH, Krak, and failed Nova saves all that damage adds up over time., Meanwhile it's Obsec slapfighting non-Obsec.

If you really want "declare attack, remove", get D weapons and roll 6's.

You know what I just diced this out.

- 1W from Grav (for concussive)
- 1W from failed Nova
- 2W from TH
- 1W from Tacs (Krak was saved, S5 normal attacks rolled 1-1)
- Riptide rolled 2 hits, 1 wound, removed 1 Tac Marine.

So that's a little too efficient, now your Tacs aren't hiding in assault. Oops. But do you see my point?

People who count on losing usually get the results they expect!

Naked ASM or Tacs, even BA, lose CC to a Riptide.

Give them a weapon - even a MeltaBomb - though, and things are different.

A vet sarge with a Power Axe?
On the charge, non-BA:
4x(2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = 16/27 wounds/round, which should about tie things up. But won't kill it too quickly (when combined with the rest of the squad).

BA:
4x(2/3)(1/2)(2/3), or 8/9 wounds. With the other ASM, should win combat.

Power Sword gets chumped, though. No better than a standard guy.

Power Maul isn't terrible: 4x(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) is 4/9. Not good, not bad.

Now, a Power Axe ASM sarge typically risks getting chumped against any other target. And sticking a TH or PF and Vet on the Sarge makes that 10man even more expensive (210/205 for 10 ASM, 180/175 for Tacs), so you're still spending as much as a Riptide to try to eat it in CC over several rounds. Assuming a substantial number make it into CC.

So its abojt the same number of points, needs to make it into CC before it shuts down the Riptdie, and needs to not lose too many guys getting there. And, even once there, can still lose CC (just not too likely). While the Riptide has 2-3 rounds to do what it wants first.

Tide does what it wants for 2-3 rounds, both units then get tied up for 2-3 rounds in CC, then the ASM or Tags have 1-2 rounds to have any other impact.

That isn't ASM or Tacs countering a Riptide. That's a Riptide countering ASMs or Tacs kitted for killing it. It gets the better end of the deal. Its just that it usually does so much better.

Tacs shouldn't be kitted to kill Riptides. Try working in a Force Axe instead.

The point was that even Krak Grenades can stick on 1-2 wounds over multiple rounds of combat.

They're not effective but little things can add up.

Keep in mind that trading fire with Grav Cannons isn't necessarily a winning strategy. It's not like a Riptide is obliged to politely stay out of CC either -- that Grav Cannon isn't going to wound much when it's being used as a club.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Exactly. The difference...Imperial Guard aren't known for copious amounts of Low AP Ignores Cover shooting. At least when IG was blowing you off the table, you got to roll saves. That difference matters...

You clearly have never faced a foot guard army with lots of cheap heavy or special weapon teams with orders that can ignore cover so no Imperial Guard have access to low AP ignores shooting, quite a lot in fact.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tacs shouldn't be kitted to kill Riptides. Try working in a Force Axe instead.

The point was that even Krak Grenades can stick on 1-2 wounds over multiple rounds of combat.

They're not effective but little things can add up.

Keep in mind that trading fire with Grav Cannons isn't necessarily a winning strategy. It's not like a Riptide is obliged to politely stay out of CC either -- that Grav Cannon isn't going to wound much when it's being used as a club.

Is Riptide a character? I'm not aware because no one is idiotic enough to run drones with it.

If it is, it will challenge out that axe. Probably kill it.

It can't challenge, it's just a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

Point taken, not a MC (Character) though.

 Quickjager wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

They absolutely can. I play Daemons, and challenging people with my Biomancy DP is one of the few joys in 40k I get

 Quickjager wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

That was 6th, 7th removed that. Riptides can't challenge.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

They absolutely can. I play Daemons, and challenging people with my Biomancy DP is one of the few joys in 40k I get

There are few times I use my DK shunt to get away from something but a full-powered DP is one of them.

EDIT: People, I was asking if it was a character. Any character can challenge, MC or not.

Force Axe will do the job. It's getting it there that's the hard part

There are Character MCs (Demons, Wraithlords), but Riptides are not characters, and thus cannot challenge.

Even with that Power Axe, the Marines aren't winning combat by much.

But what about Podding near them with cheap squads?

If you put a Grav Cannon on a Tac in a 5man, even if he Interceptors with a pie plate, it hits all 5, and there is no cover, the Grav Cannon still has a 60% chance to survive. Throw in even a 6+, or prevent him from putting the pie plate over all 5 (spread out), and it survives. That's 3 Grav shots. Or a Grav Gun for 2 shots.

If you do GC/GG/Combi, that's 7 shots, provided 3 survive (should be doable - even a 6+ makes it very, very likely). That's a lot of points to just ding a Riptide, but it should put a dent in:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) means (10/27) wounds/shot. So you do about 3W to the riptide from the squad. Combat squadded means you also have a Pod and 2 small MEQ squads in your enemy's face. He will shoot them off the table, sure, but that is firepower he can't use elsewhere. And more than trivial firepower.

So you just spent around 235 pts to do a bit over half a Riptide's HP, and force your opponent to respond to those threats.

Might slow them down and do enough damage to be an overall success, but that seems to be the best a podded Tac squad can do about a Riptide.

Bharring wrote:
There are Character MCs (Demons, Wraithlords), but Riptides are not characters, and thus cannot challenge.

Even with that Power Axe, the Marines aren't winning combat by much.

But what about Podding near them with cheap squads?

If you put a Grav Cannon on a Tac in a 5man, even if he Interceptors with a pie plate, it hits all 5, and there is no cover, the Grav Cannon still has a 60% chance to survive. Throw in even a 6+, or prevent him from putting the pie plate over all 5 (spread out), and it survives. That's 3 Grav shots. Or a Grav Gun for 2 shots.

If you do GC/GG/Combi, that's 7 shots, provided 3 survive (should be doable - even a 6+ makes it very, very likely). That's a lot of points to just ding a Riptide, but it should put a dent in:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) means (10/27) wounds/shot. So you do about 3W to the riptide from the squad. Combat squadded means you also have a Pod and 2 small MEQ squads in your enemy's face. He will shoot them off the table, sure, but that is firepower he can't use elsewhere. And more than trivial firepower.

So you just spent around 235 pts to do a bit over half a Riptide's HP, and force your opponent to respond to those threats.

Might slow them down and do enough damage to be an overall success, but that seems to be the best a podded Tac squad can do about a Riptide.

I dunno at that point I think if you're going with the idea of just forcing the Riptide to respond to threats and hoping to kill them with some luck, you may as well throw two pods worth of Assault Centurions into the battleline.

Its more that they need to handle it. Each squad is a big enough deal where if they don't kill them, they can do things. For instance, the Cannon will probably finish the Riptide on its own next round, if ignored. And, the Riptide doesn't have its main gun, as he used it for Interceptor.

And the pod and Marines are ObSec.

Tau can reserve the Riptides if a lot if Grav is incoming.

Bharring wrote:
Its more that they need to handle it. Each squad is a big enough deal where if they don't kill them, they can do things. For instance, the Cannon will probably finish the Riptide on its own next round, if ignored. And, the Riptide doesn't have its main gun, as he used it for Interceptor.

And the pod and Marines are ObSec.

Ehhh what about the other interceptors in the army?

Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Here's the 12th place LVO finisher:

CAD
- Ethereal
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- Y'varna: EW and VT
- Tetra
- 3 broadsides with Shasve upgrade, x2 EW X1 Target Lock
- 1 Stormsurge with Shield and EW

Riptide Wing
- Riptide: EWO, VT
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO

Drop Podding is gonna be a very tough fight...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Welcome to being HPed out by autocannon town! Just like the rest of us.

Nevermind...not worth it

the_scotsman wrote:
Shooting armies get hate because they're both boring and easy to win with.

I'm talking Necrons, Eldar, Tau, and razorback spam Gladius marines.

They plunk their models down on the table, then proceed to not move at all as they sit and pick targets.

Guard was unpopular for the exact same reason when they were strong. Gunlines just suck, and people have to accept that if they play a pure gunline with 100% highly durable/highly mobile long ranged weaponry, nobody's going to want to play them.

heh. especially when the Necron player in my group does literally that exact thing: puts his three objectives on the edge of his deployment zone, as close together as legally permitted, plops down his 3-6 monoliths (depending on size of game), bubblewraps it all into a box formation, and doesn't move. leaving my footslogging Orks to walk up through a flury of pie plates. Thankfully, I usually only need about 1/3 of my army to MAKE it to him...but then I've got reanimation and lych guard/lords to deal with too. It's boring.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Either way it would be a good change.

"The movement phase is harmless"

*Proceeds to move 500 cultists individually*

"The movement phase is harmless-physically-but mentally..."

Arson Fire wrote:
Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

The Tyranid monstrous creatures are really not that bad, in fact they are just over costed slightly for what you get for them now. The real strength of the Tau is the units that support the Riptide, not the Riptide itself, which explains why its effectiveness is pretty much cut in half with the loss of marker lights alone.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Except tyranid MCs dont have a 2+/5++(or 3++ with nova charge)/5+++. Also, if you havent noticed, the good tyranid lists bring Basically nothing but MCs and lictors and rippers for objectives.