Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Seriously who's really complaining about shooty armies right now on the forum?

This thread is just another indirect shot at ITC nerfing Tau, OP can play it off however he wants. Who knows they might remove some of the nerfs later on down the line, but in the mean time if you don't want to play the ITC format then DON'T.

 koooaei wrote:
What kind of knowledge could help a footslogging ork army against a tau gunline in 6-th edition? If you can answer this without "get 100% blos in the middle of the board", i'm intrigued.

I can and a lot of other players like me can and I will share my knowledge/opinion on footslogging orks because you requested it!

 koooaei wrote:
And before you say that footslogging ork army is not valid from the get go, well, it used to be valid before 6-th tau and eldar codexes that triggered the shooting escalation.

No matter what game you play the meta will change and it is up to you to either adapt or lose! You cannot prevent new codexes from coming out those things are out of your control but you do have control over what you can bring to the table to counter the new codex!

 koooaei wrote:
Maybe you SHOULD play it out first and than make such statements? You know, we like challenges here Prove your point with action. Do a batrep of how you can 'know the rules' and outplay an average tau player running something like a footslogging horde yourself.

All in due time I will eventually make battle reports and all that jazz but for now all I have is the forums. I have an ability that a lot of great players have when it comes to this game we can look at your list and dismantle it before the game even starts! I will use this ability to show you how orks can beat this Top 12 Tau list from LVO! Yes, Kenpachi does love challenges!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here's the 12th place LVO finisher:

CAD
- Ethereal
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- Y'varna: EW and VT
- Tetra
- 3 broadsides with Shasve upgrade, x2 EW X1 Target Lock
- 1 Stormsurge with Shield and EW

Riptide Wing
- Riptide: EWO, VT
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO

Drop Podding is gonna be a very tough fight...

First thing off the bat only 1 marker light source in the form of a Tetra. If you take that out Riptides have no ignore cover! With only 1 marker light source that means cover is actually good against this army. So you place as many of your objectives in cover get all 30 boys into cover and when they shoot go to ground! Also include pain boys to give the unit feel no pain. Scared little voice decides to speak, "But Kenpachi their weapons ignore cover and deny feel no pain".

This is not true as they cant do both at the same time without marker lights! The riptides large blast cannot ignore cover without that Tetra unit and this list only has one tetra unit should be an easy target. Secondly smart missiles against orks is not that great if they have feel no pain because of their t 4 on average a smart missile forces 2 saves if you have feel no pain you are good to go!

Now I will get to the meat of the subject! First and foremost take the force field fortification or whatever its called, it will greatly reduce the alpha strike potentially of all armies. Secondly Kommandos, Stormboyz, warbikes are all units that can get to them quickly and they will focus fire power on them, while your mvp does all the hard work! The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

With infiltrate, 2d6 run, and bikes he cant focus on the boyz who are on the objectives or the lootas because the cheap assault units are to close for comfort. You can kill the tetra with the infiltrating kommandos because I believe it has armor 10 and 2 hp if you spend 10 points to get 2 rokkits combine that with str 4 shots you will most likely kill it. Bikes have a 3+ cover save on the turn that they turbo-boast combine that with the ability to spread out templates should not hurt them as much.

Shoot your lootas at the broadside units they must go first because they have both smart-missiles and 4 str 7 shots they hurt bad. 2 large squad of lootas should be able to take them out no problem it might require 3 depending on how bad or good they roll. Once that thing is gone focus on the stormsurge. It only has t6 and a 3+ followed by a 5+ you can kill it with lootas!

All you have to do is swarm the objectives with 30 bodies that are t 4 and have feel no pain! Let the lootas do the heavy work until your fast units can get into cc, the lootas will be protected by void shields and cover. The best part is if they focus to much on you lets say the Stormsurge says he is going to target the lootas with 3-5 shooting attacks go to ground, you can still fire snap shots your bs was only 2 anyways!

When you charge, try to charge all units on the same turn and don't forget to yell WAAAGH! You are yelling because with that word you just said you get to run and than charge don't forget that stormboyz run 2d6! The first unit to charge should be the unit that has taken the most wounds. That way you force his hand with over watch he must do it or lose it! That cheap deffkopta with a buzzsaw has another purpose now! Because the riptides in this formation are so close because they want to take advantage of Networked Reactors or they are at the same spot because they cant move the turn they shoot twice. Do one massive melee your power claws and mass str 4 attacks should win combat hopefully you catch them if you didn't kill them.

That's how a foot slooging ork army can beat a gunline! This could be made easier with tankbustas in trukks or the use of battlewagons but I digress.

 gmaleron wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

The Tyranid monstrous creatures are really not that bad, in fact they are just over costed slightly for what you get for them now. The real strength of the Tau is the units that support the Riptide, not the Riptide itself, which explains why its effectiveness is pretty much cut in half with the loss of marker lights alone.

Being effectively unkillable is a pretty good strength... Yes, we can all quote numbers of things that will down a Riptide, but in a real game it's hard to bring those kinds of numbers of weapons to bear. So you kill the markerlights and hope the Tau player doesn't roll many "HIT"s. Pretty weak, imo. Every "strategy" against Tau seems to involve praying that they roll poorly. Doesn't seem fun at all.

 Swampmist wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Except tyranid MCs dont have a 2+/5++(or 3++ with nova charge)/5+++. Also, if you havent noticed, the good tyranid lists bring Basically nothing but MCs and lictors and rippers for objectives.

No, they can just fly: meaning they negate blasts/flamers, only are hit on 6s, and can move as a FMC

I don't know. I'm a lot more afraid of Wraiths than I am of a Riptide. 12 wounds with 3++, T5, 12" movement, ignore terrain, S6, and has rending is a lot more scary than a Riptide with 5 wounds, 2+ armor, 5++, T6, 6" movement, Jetpack, with 3 S7 (or S9, Large Blast) or 12 Rending S6 shots (plus secondary weapons).

I'll take the more durable and faster Wraiths any day. They can threaten more things and provide board presence. Riptides have to keep falling back in order to get their shots in and avoid shots.

As for the overall discussion, I'm not afraid of shooting. I'm more afraid of a string of advanced rules or combined psychic powers. Like Eldar Wrap Spiders or Seer councils. Or even SW Wolfstars with DA Bike supports. The amount of rules a single deathstar can add on to is hilarious.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Except tyranid MCs dont have a 2+/5++(or 3++ with nova charge)/5+++. Also, if you havent noticed, the good tyranid lists bring Basically nothing but MCs and lictors and rippers for objectives.

No, they can just fly: meaning they negate blasts/flamers, only are hit on 6s, and can move as a FMC

Only one of the Tyranid MCs is flying, and that is one of the two that are actually seen in competative lists. I was more speaking of those not named the Flyrant or Mawlok

It is telling that the best Nid lists (despite the age of the dex) are mostly MCs, yes.

Imagine if they were 10/10/10 walkers with 2 HPs, they'd be worse than CSM.

Saythings wrote:
I don't know. I'm a lot more afraid of Wraiths than I am of a Riptide. 12 wounds with 3++, T5, 12" movement, ignore terrain, S6, and has rending is a lot more scary than a Riptide with 5 wounds, 2+ armor, 5++, T6, 6" movement, Jetpack, with 3 S7 (or S9, Large Blast) or 12 Rending S6 shots (plus secondary weapons).

I'll take the more durable and faster Wraiths any day. They can threaten more things and provide board presence. Riptides have to keep falling back in order to get their shots in and avoid shots.

As for the overall discussion, I'm not afraid of shooting. I'm more afraid of a string of advanced rules or combined psychic powers. Like Eldar Wrap Spiders or Seer councils. Or even SW Wolfstars with DA Bike supports. The amount of rules a single deathstar can add on to is hilarious.

Yes, Deathstars are very nasty. There's no denying that.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Their weapons are short range and they don't come with an invulnerable as standard and the option to buy FnP, they have to roll for those benefits.

Is it really telling that nid lists contain a lot of MCs?
That's like saying it's telling that IG lists contain a lot of vehicles.
Nids bring mostly MCs in their lists because they have mostly MCs in their codex. Where other armies have vehicles, they have MCs.

My point was just that it's silly to say MCs are broken when the vast majority of them range from totally fine, to some so bad they rarely even see casual play.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is telling that the best Nid lists (despite the age of the dex) are mostly MCs, yes.

Imagine if they were 10/10/10 walkers with 2 HPs, they'd be worse than CSM.

Well, yes.
But imagine if they were T9 W9 2++ FnP(2+) GMCs? They'd be better than Eldar.

The fact is even with their MCs they are a lackluster army power-wise. If MCs were truly as OP as Martel & others claim they are Nids would be top dog.
Funny how they aren't.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is telling that the best Nid lists (despite the age of the dex) are mostly MCs, yes.

Imagine if they were 10/10/10 walkers with 2 HPs, they'd be worse than CSM.

Well, yes.
But imagine if they were T9 W9 2++ FnP(2+) GMCs? They'd be better than Eldar.

The fact is even with their MCs they are a lackluster army power-wise. If MCs were truly as OP as Martel & others claim they are Nids would be top dog.
Funny how they aren't.

You know what Martel means. Martel complains about the MCs that shouldn't be MCs: Riptides, Wraithknights, Stormsurges, Castellan Robots, Dreadknights, etc.

He complains about all MCs, not just those that shouldn't be MCs (though he does complain about them the most, and for the most part that's well-founded).

Even Tyranid MCs are more durable than vehicles of equivalent cost. And fight back in HTH. And don't have a damage table. And get an armor save. And get free AP2. And get access to S10.

": Riptides, Wraithknights, Stormsurges, Castellan Robots, Dreadknights, etc."

Yes, these are far worse than Tyranid MCs, but it doesn't change the fact that the MC USR is stupid powerful. Especially compared to crappy vehicles in 7th ed.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
He complains about all MCs, not just those that shouldn't be MCs (though he does complain about them the most, and for the most part that's well-founded).

Some of the pseudo MCs shouldn't even be walkers... The Riptide could be a T6 Jump infantry.

The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

So a gigantic robot shouldn't be able to crush through armor lol?

The reason people rage about MC > Walkers is both because Walker rules are lousy (they should tap into Super rules imho, ignore damage charges except Explode and only take D3 damage so it might survive) and the main MCs you see are Riptides, Ghostkeels, Dreadknights, and Wraithlords.
Wraithlords are probably the tamest of the 4, high as hell toughness being a problem but hes not ungodly powerful either (least not that ive seen). Other 3 are insanely better than Nid MCs, which is suppose to be the army that defines MCs.

The general MC rules are pretty damn tame on their own. Giving something MC status is usually bad unless you rework a ton of rules/stats to go with it. For instance, if Ghazzy went to MC status but didnt get exceptions for transports/joining a unit he'd be arguably worse off than he already is.

concerning the "pseudo mcs" ive always felt they should be labeled Mechanical Monstrous Creatures (nonMC being Crisis Suits/Broadsides/Commanders/Hazards). Immune to poison, but vulnerable to Haywire on a 2+ and AP2 on a 5 regardless of the weapon's profile. In addition, melta weapons in 2D6 pen range cause 2 wounds instead of 1. They arent walkers, but theyre still a machine. Necron Canopteks would fall under this category too, as would the Stormsurge/Ta'unar albeit with GMC rules too.

Note: i said ap2 regardless of the weapon profile because afaik there isnt any Haywire that even has an AP at all. Y'vahra causes haywire in addition to its S8 AP3 shots, the Haywire doesnt have an AP.
EDIT: Also, Mechanical Creatures and up (thats nonMC variants included) are immune to Fleshbane but each Armorbane causes 2 wounds. Same idea as immune to Poison since theyre a machine so Fleshbane shouldnt work, and Melta causing extra damage so Armorbane should too.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

So a gigantic robot shouldn't be able to crush through armor lol?

You mean like all those gigantic robots stomp through armour ? (sentinels/dragoon/stalkers}
When the precedent is for big robots without equally big melee weapons, to be unable to crunch through armour, then why stould another big robot with no weapon do it?

That being said, fluff wise, I agree gigantic robots should ignore armour, all of them, I'm pretty sure a sentinel could punt some tactical marines across the table!

You mean Necron Spyders, right? Crypteks are a Infantry HQ choice.

But yeah I've always felt that would be a good idea.
Combine it with giving all vehicles a Toughness value and save (or at the very least a save) and it'd be golden.

thought Crypteks were the type of unit Wraiths, Spyders, and Scarabs were? thats what i meant. They arent Necrons, theyre a legit machine with Necron tech but they arent a "Necron"

The only time I complained about a unit was when helldrakes first came out and no one had true anti-tank at the time.

I see there is extreme prejudice towards certain units that are not available in imperial codexes. I believe the only MC that Imperials have is the dreadknight.

However Imperials have access to the best weapon in the game, grav guns and no one complains about grav!

Yeah he is. Even in FW they dont have any others, but they do have some walkers that actually WORK thanks to good invuls and nasty guns. Though, expensive as balls (Leviathan i bought for a BA friend for xmas was a chunk over 100 lol ouch)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
thought Crypteks were the type of unit Wraiths, Spyders, and Scarabs were? thats what i meant. They arent Necrons, theyre a legit machine with Necron tech but they arent a "Necron"

That would be Canoptek, not Cryptek.

 CKO wrote:
The only time I complained about a unit was when helldrakes first came out and no one had true anti-tank at the time.

I see there is extreme prejudice towards certain units that are not available in imperial codexes. I believe the only MC that Imperials have is the dreadknight.

However Imperials have access to the best weapon in the game, grav guns and no one complains about grav!

What are you talking about? Lots of people complain about Grav

no one complains about grav!

Nobody thinks grav is balanced, It's just the best answer to other imbalanced stuff. Grav is power creep in a nutshell.

And ALL us xeno races complain about grav.

Also,

No matter what game you play the meta will change and it is up to you to either adapt or lose! You cannot prevent new codexes from coming out those things are out of your control but you do have control over what you can bring to the table to counter the new codex!

First you say Shooting isn't better, and people need to learn to play,
Then someone points out that tau will blow an ork horde off the table and you answer, the meta changes and things become stronger, adapt.
Well you are right, the meta changed, and Tau sit atop it with eldar.

You can't blame your opponent for not countering you when you have the best toys.

If someone brings a phantom titan, when you can only bring kroot, Is it fair for them to say "you only lost because I out played you"

Tau are powerful, and will always have the odds in their favor unless the opponent pulls out every stop for a power list.
It happened when necrons came out , it happened when eldar came out, and it will happen for tau until power creep catches up.
The Truth is, Tau ARE more powerful than most armies, and saying it's the other generals fault he lost, despite the power difference is just rude.

harkequin wrote:

no one complains about grav!

Nobody thinks grav is balanced, It's just the best answer to other imbalanced stuff. Grav is power creep in a nutshell.

And ALL us xeno races complain about grav.

Are you saying the community is full of complainers? Xeno players complain about Grav while the Imperials complain about Monstrous Creatures.

harkequin wrote:
irst you say Shooting isn't better, and people need to learn to play,
Then someone points out that tau will blow an ork horde off the table and you answer, the meta changes and things become stronger, adapt.
Well you are right, the meta changed, and Tau sit atop it with eldar.

I also posted this in the very same post! Where I tell the player how ork hordes could beat a Tau army if you go back and read the rules I meant my post you would see that I wrote how Orks can beat Tau.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

So a gigantic robot shouldn't be able to crush through armor lol?

Some armor, perhaps, but not 2+ armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
" Every army has a great unit"

Not BA. Or Orks, really.

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

The stormsurge fires.All your Warbikes die, even jinking. Trust me.

each breacher squad devilfish combo brings down 5 kommandos.

As for killing the tetra, good luck getting your commandos withing 12" to fire your pistols, even if he deploys stupidly forward AND lets you infiltrate 12" away, he just scouts back 12". 2 BS2 rokkits won't kill it.
Also 2 rokkits is 30 points, not 10.

The commandos can in fact pretty much be written off, they won't kill anything shooting, and have to endure 1 or 2 turns of shooting + overwatch.

most your stormboys die to the Riptide hailfire even in cover,
You are left after the first tau turn with *some* stormboys , who still have to eat overwatch. very few commandos, who at most will be a mild inconvenience to the breacher teams (woo defensive grenades)

And some lootas who might kill a broadside.
Sure you have boys, but not for long.

The stormsurge can just stomp up the field

Face it, you just counter picked a tau list , and gave a tonne of buffs to orks, they are nowhere near as strong as you think (400 pts killing 90 pts)

That list would be annhilated , your "superior tactics" are the same tactics everyone uses.
Sometimes its not a fair fight. Hence the phantom analogy.

You have an advantage, don;t be a dick and put down the loser when they complain about the strength of your codex.



As for the Tyson argument. I am not strong or in shape, no matter how skilled a boxer I was, I am not beating him, I don;t have the muscle or speed, no matter how "good " i am at it.It's not mental restraints stopping me from winning there

My Xenos don't complain about grav. I love grav. Take as much grav as you can cram in your greedy little power armored fists against any of my armies. The best armor save you're gonna find is a 4+.

I use a bit of everything with BA.