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9th age from what I've seen is basically a step back to 7th overall in feel - it is very heavily tournament style oriented with a heavy reduction on the random elements that they brought into 8th.

9th age is an evolution from 8th, improving on most if not all of its weaknesses, e.g. unbreakable Steadfast and insanely overpowered magic.

WHFB is dead, GW abandoned it and tried to have it replaced with AoS which horribly failed given that it's a completely different "game".

Most players either quit or now play one of these two:

KoW: The streamlined version of WHFB, much, much less stuffed with tons of special rules, but highly tactical and enjoyable.

9th: WHFB 8.5. Very complicated but still very competitive. Pretty much exclusive to clubs.

Thanks. I think KoW suits my tastes better at present then.

 Da Boss wrote:
Thanks. I think KoW suits my tastes better at present then.

KoW is a very good game, especially as a tournament game as it plays very fast and is also very balanced. It benefits by not having any of the finicky bits Warhammer/9th Age has.

That being said, it also suffers from not having the finicky bits Warhammer/9th Age has. Some people play BECAUSE of those so....to each his own I guess. I enjoy them all personally.

My club is split between Malifaux and Kings of War, with a couple of us playing both. Likewise the NE US GT circuit it appears, with events featuring both games side by side.

I'm messing with AOS on the side as well, as there's a friendly group of AOSers doing their thing on Saturdays at a different LGS - they're mostly 40k refugees who never played WHFB, or if they did it was pre-7E. Good chaps, though I tend to prefer their AOS events over pick ups, so I can get more games for my prep time (AOS being a pretty swift affair).

- Salvage

Kings of War, basically a 100% switch, around a dozen people use their warhammer armies to play it and maybe 5-6 more have Mantic armies.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
My club is split between Malifaux and Kings of War, with a couple of us playing both. Likewise the NE US GT circuit it appears, with events featuring both games side by side.

I'm messing with AOS on the side as well, as there's a friendly group of AOSers doing their thing on Saturdays at a different LGS - they're mostly 40k refugees who never played WHFB, or if they did it was pre-7E. Good chaps, though I tend to prefer their AOS events over pick ups, so I can get more games for my prep time (AOS being a pretty swift affair).

- Salvage

This is interesting as the NE GT circuit had a lot of very large, regularly attended events every year. If they're going KoW then maybe that's the future. Is there a FB group for those events these days?

I remember Crossroads and the Unplugged GT being big events that had a lot of very serious players. There was also a few GT's in Jersey that were big too. How GW could get rid of a game that had a following like that is kind of nuts.

auticus wrote:
9th age from what I've seen is basically a step back to 7th overall in feel - it is very heavily tournament style oriented with a heavy reduction on the random elements that they brought into 8th.

More like a streamlined 8th than that.

Basically removing some of the silly/OP/unnecessarily random stuff with a heavy emphasis on balance both external across armybooks and internal. Magic has been severely reworked, and most items and abilities that granted power dice and bonus to cast have gone or become very expensive, overall having less of an impact in the game.... so much that you begin to see lists not just without the mandatory lv4, but even without magic at all.

Otherwise the core mechanics underneath are still very much 8th (step up, fight and shoot in two ranks, strict initiative order, stomp/thunderstomp, steadfast, 2D6 power dice, random charge distance etc.)

Over here it's all about 9th age, with the odd oldhammer and KoW thrown in.

 Da Boss wrote:
Thanks. I think KoW suits my tastes better at present then.

Yes. It's very tactical and streamlined and thus very playable while also maintaining the general look that WHFB used to have, i.e. big armies fighting each other with blocks of infantry, cavarly and monsters. WHFB 9th is a really, really good ruleset on a competitive level, but...it's complicated. Explaining it to others takes a lot of time and there are tons of special rules you need to remember.

To my understanding (and to try condense it into a catchy soundbite) KoW appeals to those who liked WHFB despite it's fiddly components*, while 9th age appeals to those who liked WHFB because of them.


*And by fiddly components I mean things like magic item combos, unlimited unit formations (should I keep my Chaos Warriors in 5x4 or buy one warrior more and run them 7x3?), and endlessly tweaking and finetuning one's list; dropping a goblin here, to afford giving a halberd to that orc hero there, and so on. Plus a lot more special rules of course.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Thanks. I think KoW suits my tastes better at present then.

Yes. It's very tactical and streamlined and thus very playable while also maintaining the general look that WHFB used to have, i.e. big armies fighting each other with blocks of infantry, cavarly and monsters. WHFB 9th is a really, really good ruleset on a competitive level, but...it's complicated. Explaining it to others takes a lot of time and there are tons of special rules you need to remember.

Look yes, but not feel.

KoW is very streamlined and easy-to-learn-hard-to-master thing, but the feel is totally different. Units are all the same formation, they don't take casualties until they go poof, and bounce back from combat after, characters can't lead units and the customization options are very limited.

WHFB is clunky, it's part of the appeal that you only have points for 27 instead of a full 30 warriors, that every character has different gear and that you have to check whether one thing is in base contact with this or that mini.

That's one thing I love about X-wing also. The myriad of list-building options with ships and upgrades and pilots. KoW just seems very shallow on that department.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:This is interesting as the NE GT circuit had a lot of very large, regularly attended events every year. If they're going KoW then maybe that's the future. Is there a FB group for those events these days?

I remember Crossroads and the Unplugged GT being big events that had a lot of very serious players. There was also a few GT's in Jersey that were big too. How GW could get rid of a game that had a following like that is kind of nuts.

Not sure about single FB groups, though these events all have their own forums, and probably private club groups or so. Crossroads Spring (March 5-6) is tournaments for KOW, Malifaux and 9th Age, and Unplugged (April 15-17) is exclusively running KOW. Ideally I'd be going to both ... but both dates are conflicts for me, so I've had to drop out of the two. If you're interested in an Unplugged ticket, I have one for you

Overall though I've seen more of the NE GT heavies move to Malifaux in the last year. Interesting to see a number of familiar names gracing the podium of a totally different game, but I guess that's how gaming communities work.

Zywus wrote:To my understanding (and to try condense it into a catchy soundbite) KoW appeals to those who liked WHFB despite it's fiddly components*, while 9th age appeals to those who liked WHFB because of them.

Catchy soundbite is catchy ... and reeks of truth

Playing KOW I sometimes miss the fiddliness of WHFB, but only to a certain extent. The 8E meta was for the most part very solidified - yes you could in theory take all these different magic items and cool units, but in practice characters took very similar builds and units tended strongly to the Obviously Better choices from each book. I find that what I was doing to shake the meta up (taking less used units and generally not taking many items) is exactly what I've been doing in KOW. Because on the flipside, the meta I'm seeing develop for KOW is fairly reminiscent of 8E: the same few magic items on the units you'd expect them on, with a heavy focus on certain unit types that are very good (flying, high defense, shooting in volume, etc, etc). KOW's inbuilt scenario play and huge selection of units (even if they're fairly similar), combined with a still growing / still learning player base, is happily keeping that meta yet in flux though.

- Salvage

Once in a blue moon some guys at my club play WHFB, presumably 8th but I haven't asked. Ironically they were also invited to a games Expo thing by Creative Assembly a couple of months ago to play Warhammer and not AoS in the Warhammer:Total War stand/event/whatever these things are called.

8th used to get played quite a lot (I have only been going there for just under a year now though) but its now a rarity; its mostly skirmish games, Epic, 40K and various historicals that get played these days.

Coming from southwest Virginia, WHFB was rare to nonexistent for at least 5-6 years. Its made something of a comeback. At my FLGS its been mostly Age of Sigmar with about 5-6 players and a game or two a week. I also know of at least 2 others playing Kings of War though they seem to play mostly at another store one town over so there may be more of a following for KoW there.

I've said elsewhere that WHFB was dead or near-dead for years where I'm living so any games at all is an improvement. I know AoS is popular in the UK and they have many events there. I'd love to have more events and tournaments here in the US as I think AoS is more popular than people give it credit for.

As a less competitive, less tournament focused game, it naturally has less forum traffic than more competitive games like 40k, Infinity, etc. That fact, combined with the utterly hateful, sadistic trolling that a minority of posters continues to engage in, I believe, has driven most AoS discussion away from major hubs like Dakka Dakka and BoLs. I'm sure there are plenty of communities that have an active AoS group that they are growing locally. They simply never bother posting about AoS online, since any question about any aspect of the game inevitably leads to the most ignorant, hate filled, embittered ranting you could ever want to read. So there is an artificial appearance of failure and lack of interest from the online AoS community. Of course it should go without saying that the world of the Internet and forums is not the only world and does not necessarily reflect reality.

But what do I know...I happen to like AoS so there must be something wrong with me!

bhollenb wrote:
Coming from southwest Virginia, WHFB was rare to nonexistent for at least 5-6 years. Its made something of a comeback. At my FLGS its been mostly Age of Sigmar with about 5-6 players and a game or two a week. I also know of at least 2 others playing Kings of War though they seem to play mostly at another store one town over so there may be more of a following for KoW there.

I've said elsewhere that WHFB was dead or near-dead for years where I'm living so any games at all is an improvement. I know AoS is popular in the UK and they have many events there. I'd love to have more events and tournaments here in the US as I think AoS is more popular than people give it credit for.

As a less competitive, less tournament focused game, it naturally has less forum traffic than more competitive games like 40k, Infinity, etc. That fact, combined with the utterly hateful, sadistic trolling that a minority of posters continues to engage in, I believe, has driven most AoS discussion away from major hubs like Dakka Dakka and BoLs. I'm sure there are plenty of communities that have an active AoS group that they are growing locally. They simply never bother posting about AoS online, since any question about any aspect of the game inevitably leads to the most ignorant, hate filled, embittered ranting you could ever want to read. So there is an artificial appearance of failure and lack of interest from the online AoS community. Of course it should go without saying that the world of the Internet and forums is not the only world and does not necessarily reflect reality.

But what do I know...I happen to like AoS so there must be something wrong with me!

I think you're right about the online presence. The traditional Warhammer AoS forums are a desert, while the Facebook groups are so busy it's impossible to keep up with.

AOS killed fantasy dead in my area. Our club used to have around 16 guys playing WHFB every wednesday, and 60+ on our monthly weekend meets. After AoS the club split between KoW and WMH, but each has hemorrhaged players rather than gained any. We're now basically a WMH and Bloodbowl club, with a few Bolt Action, XWing, Malifaux, and KoW players who show up on the weekends.

 bbb wrote:
What is 9th Age like? Is it close to any specific earlier WHFB army? Been trying to find a summary of what it's like and haven't been able to do so yet.

It's basically ETC-style WHFB. Magic is nerfed down, as is everything that was really good in 8th, but some of the armies have done a good job of differentiating themselves. Really depends on the development team for the army. For instance, the TK book is awesome with lots of cool synergies and flavourful new abilties and buffs, but the VC book is pure, unadulterated garbage with everything that made it interesting torn out and a few random stat/point tweaks being all that makes up for it.

It's catching on in some areas, but honestly other places (like my area) aren't interested. People mourned the death of WHFB and moved on, and not everyone seems interested in trying to breath life back into the corpse.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
AOS killed fantasy dead in my area. Our club used to have around 16 guys playing WHFB every wednesday, and 60+ on our monthly weekend meets. After AoS the club split between KoW and WMH, but each has hemorrhaged players rather than gained any. We're now basically a WMH and Bloodbowl club, with a few Bolt Action, XWing, Malifaux, and KoW players who show up on the weekends.

 bbb wrote:
What is 9th Age like? Is it close to any specific earlier WHFB army? Been trying to find a summary of what it's like and haven't been able to do so yet.

It's basically ETC-style WHFB. Magic is nerfed down, as is everything that was really good in 8th, but some of the armies have done a good job of differentiating themselves. Really depends on the development team for the army. For instance, the TK book is awesome with lots of cool synergies and flavourful new abilties and buffs, but the VC book is pure, unadulterated garbage with everything that made it interesting torn out and a few random stat/point tweaks being all that makes up for it.

It's catching on in some areas, but honestly other places (like my area) aren't interested. People mourned the death of WHFB and moved on, and not everyone seems interested in trying to breath life back into the corpse.

This might be the only good that AoS did, its getting people to try out the multitude of games that are so much better than it will be.

Speaking for myself, I gave up WHFB in the mid-80s.

I was quite interested when AoS came out, but I quickly realised it was not the game for me. I won't go into the reasons why because that would be off topic.

The three rulebooks I am concentrating on now are Hordes Of The Things, Dragon Rampant, and Kings of War. One good point is that I can make an army that will be compatible with all three games.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
It's basically ETC-style WHFB. Magic is nerfed down, as is everything that was really good in 8th, but some of the armies have done a good job of differentiating themselves. Really depends on the development team for the army. For instance, the TK book is awesome with lots of cool synergies and flavourful new abilties and buffs,

I was just watching a list that scored 6th on the Cardiff GT that was basically low magic and tons of constructs:

Just 2xlv2 (one light, one nehek)
A necrotect and 23 skellies
3 vultures

And then:

9 Ushabti
3 scorps
2 sphinxes (1 battle, 1 necro)
2x4 entombed stalkers
2 casket

Back on a Spanish ETC qualifier (112 players) a totally different UD list got 4th place with a king on foot leading a big unit of tomb guard and double lv4 (light and nehek), while I got a shared 5th with three big blocks (50 spear skellies, 8 ushabti and 30 TG) with 2 lv3 + 1 lv1 nehek and only necrotects as support.

I'm also incidentally part of the Undying Dynasties dev team, and we love all kinds of feedback

No one plays gw anymore around here we play x-wing and armarda primarily, the batman miniature game we just got a load of scenery for, some fow and some battletech.

Even talk of trying halo, lots being spent none of it on gw.

hobojebus wrote:
No one plays gw anymore around here we play x-wing and armarda primarily, the batman miniature game we just got a load of scenery for, some fow and some battletech.

Even talk of trying halo, lots being spent none of it on gw.

Same thing here. this is how titans like TSR and FASA went extinct.

Well everyone in the miniature gaming group in my town are pretty tight with there hobby time and money ( would rather play than paint more new stuff) so we are all taking a wait and see approach and just are using the 8th edition rule books and models we have already bought , based and painted. No one likes the idea of putting time and money into a new Fantasy game only to have it fold a few months later after buying miniatures and books. It just seems that GW's new business plan is to sell new game stuff and then later drop it and start a new game leaving players stuck with books and minis they cant use. So it's 8th edition for the time being.

It's been clear for a while the main concern of the board is plumping up their bank balance before they retire.

That's why they pay high dividends instead of reinvesting back into the company like a healthy business would.

He's paid his wife millions for shoddy work on web sites, work that should cost 200-400k according to people that work in web design.

There's no good will left from either the customers or retailers is it a wonder people go elsewhere? That's why GW's market share shrinks as miniature games increase in popularity.

My area has switched to Kings of War. It's been great.

Only thing being played in my area since AoS has come out has been AoS.Granted its a small but growing group of us,some old time WHFB players,some new to the hobby and some like me that played 40k and fantasy.

But up until AoS came out there was a active,group of 100+ WHFB players in the area that would regularly attend local tournies and events.

I'm also part of what we were hoping would be a KoW scene.But its just not taking off here,probably due to its rather shallow game play and that fact that its pretty much bring a flyer army and curbstomp with it.

So the most played rules for WFB players in my area?...AoS and its measly 4 pages of rules.
...well that and the 40+ pages of special rules each game from the warscrolls and battleplans.

I have decided to just wait. Which is hard. I have enough to keep me busy right now anyway with two armies for Flames of War and a good bit of Napoleonics in 28mm. I will just finish what I have laying around (it should take me at least 8 months to a year from now at my pace) and then see where AoS, 40k, and GW as a whole stand. Is still enjoy their aesthetic overall besides a few standouts.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
My club is split between Malifaux and Kings of War, with a couple of us playing both. Likewise the NE US GT circuit it appears, with events featuring both games side by side.

I'm messing with AOS on the side as well, as there's a friendly group of AOSers doing their thing on Saturdays at a different LGS - they're mostly 40k refugees who never played WHFB, or if they did it was pre-7E. Good chaps, though I tend to prefer their AOS events over pick ups, so I can get more games for my prep time (AOS being a pretty swift affair).

- Salvage

I always dig stumbling across someone I may actually game with, but didn't previously know on DakkaDakka (I'm Mark, the guy who won the KoW event last week at the Portal). :-)

As stated, KoW is doing really well around here. With it gaining traction at major events as a serious competitive game, it looks like it is still going in the right direction in terms of player-base, as well.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I always dig stumbling across someone I may actually game with, but didn't previously know on DakkaDakka (I'm Mark, the guy who won the KoW event last week at the Portal). :-)

Hey dude! Hope to make one of the Portal one day KoW tournaments soon, just keep having conflicts so far. Looks like ya'll hold them pretty frequently? Easy down-and-back trip for me, would just invade with some other Shambling Horders

- Salvage

Anyone tried Warthrone? It looks like it might be more my style over KoW, though I haven't given it a go yet.

In the Midwest, we are drumming up some real players for The 9th Age. We have a GT in a few weeks (The Wicked GT) and the areas around here (Oklahoma City, Wichita, KS, and some parts of Kansas City) are starting to support each other to make Warhammer live. The new ruleset has been taken in by veteran players and it seems to have a solid design. There are a couple of people playing Kings of War but if you walk into our LGS, you will find 40k and The 9th Age being played pretty heavily. There are others as well such as Xwing, Armada, and DZC.

I'm proud to say that Warhammer lives in the Midwest!