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 dan2026 wrote:
So how would you guys play this then?

Take psychic test, then if passed/not denied pick a unit within 18 Inches and do 3d6 - leadership?

With a BS0, can not use witchfire powers. that is how I would play it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
So how would you guys play this then?

Take psychic test, then if passed/not denied pick a unit within 18 Inches and do 3d6 - leadership?

With a BS0, can not use witchfire powers. that is how I would play it.

This.

In the local GW and looking at that, what the guy from the WD wrote:

Make the test, if there is line of sight and than the 3d6.

You can look at this one of two ways.

1. That the designer of psychic shriek chose WITCHFIRE accidentally, however it was never fixed in an errata or FAQ, and it should have been MALEDICTION.

2. The designer of the new Patriarch didn't want the model to be able to use psychic shriek.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
You can look at this one of two ways.

1. That the designer of psychic shriek chose WITCHFIRE accidentally, however it was never fixed in an errata or FAQ, and it should have been MALEDICTION.

2. The designer of the new Patriarch didn't want the model to be able to use psychic shriek.

So the possibility of the Patriarch designer making an uncorrected typo is a non-starter? Or the possibility that it was set up one way, then options changed and were never reviewed, like the 7th Edition Shooting Sequence?

Or, as it is with the psychic rules in general, the rules as written do not work.

I accept the 3d6 as the to-hit roll.

Naw wrote:
Or, as it is with the psychic rules in general, the rules as written do not work.

I accept the 3d6 as the to-hit roll.

That doesn't matter you can't make any shooting attacks with bs 0 even the ones that don't require a to hit roll such as flamers

HIWPI: How i have always played psychic shriek:

Doesn't roll to hit.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Naw wrote:
Or, as it is with the psychic rules in general, the rules as written do not work.

I accept the 3d6 as the to-hit roll.

That doesn't matter you can't make any shooting attacks with bs 0 even the ones that don't require a to hit roll such as flamers

If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

I've always done it so that you need to roll to hit before you cause the damage.

Maybe psychic shriek can't penetrate rock or something.

Because.

1. Whitefires roll to hit.

2. Psychic shriek is a witchfire.

3. A model with BS0 cannot make ranged attacks or cast witchfires.

Naw wrote:
If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now that is not proper, as that unit is already defined as a Psyker unit at the beginning of the Psychic Phase section.

There are rules about models with BS 0 not being able to shoot anything, be it a Flamer or an ADL skyfire cannon. Witchfires are treated the same as Shooting a Weapon, and Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now that is not proper, as that unit is already defined as a Psyker unit at the beginning of the Psychic Phase section.

There are rules about models with BS 0 not being able to shoot anything, be it a Flamer or an ADL skyfire cannon. Witchfires are treated the same as Shooting a Weapon, and Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire.

I am quite certain my message was clear enough for everyone to understand that it is how I would (and do) play it. Doh??

RAW, the Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. What I and many others are arguing is that the RAW are stupid. There are multiple instances in the fluff of Genestealer Patriarchs using Psychic Shriek.

Naw wrote:
I am quite certain my message was clear enough for everyone to understand that it is how I would (and do) play it. Doh??

No, it sounded like you were being petulant about not being able to play how you think the rules should operate, just like you are sounding a little petulant with the ending of that quote.

 Shandara wrote:
Except they don't seem to do many FAQ/Errata these days...

Fixed that for you.

To be honest, whether or not you have to roll to hit with witchfire powers is largely a house ruled thing. There isn't anything that says one way or the other in the actual rules. It's entirely plausible that the authors didn't expect any witchfires at all to roll to hit, basically taking the psychic roll to manifest as being the "roll to hit" equivalent. We can't know in the absence of a FAQ that we'll never get, and have largely house ruled that witchfires roll to hit(which hasn't got a LOT of resistance, primarily because most psykers have BS5+). What we DO know is that it was the intent of the authors for the Patriarch to use psychic shriek. Bearing that in mind, a reasonable person must be willing to change his/her position, or at least consider the ramifications on their position, in light of new information.

You would have to be a bit of a dick to complain about the Patriarch using Psychic Shriek in a game.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Except they don't seem to do many FAQ/Errata these days...

Fixed that for you.

To be honest, whether or not you have to roll to hit with witchfire powers is largely a house ruled thing. There isn't anything that says one way or the other in the actual rules. It's entirely plausible that the authors didn't expect any witchfires at all to roll to hit, basically taking the psychic roll to manifest as being the "roll to hit" equivalent. We can't know in the absence of a FAQ that we'll never get, and have largely house ruled that witchfires roll to hit(which hasn't got a LOT of resistance, primarily because most psykers have BS5+). What we DO know is that it was the intent of the authors for the Patriarch to use psychic shriek. Bearing that in mind, a reasonable person must be willing to change his/her position, or at least consider the ramifications on their position, in light of new information.

You don't seem to get the point, most witchfires have a shooting profile like Smite for example: 18" S4 AP2 Assault 4. This shows us how many dice we have to roll at what range to hit and to wound. Only psychic shriek lacks this profile, and that is where the confusion starts. You HAVE to roll to hit for witchfires, thats stated in the rules (contrary to what you believe). But psychic shriek doesn't tell us how many dice, only a range of 18".

Personally HIWPI is he gets to cast psychic shriek and you dont roll to hit. Imo the most obvious fix would be to make it a malediction (like I stated earlier). It feels intended that way because of the psychic focus rule. Why would they create a unit that has a guaranteed psychic power but cant use it. Ofcourse RAW he cant use it until we get an FAQ ( )

 M0ff3l wrote:
You HAVE to roll to hit for witchfires, thats stated in the rules (contrary to what you believe).

Pretty sure you're incorrect, and that it's not in the rules that you have to roll to hit with witchfires. The closest parallel would be the rules for shooting in general, in which we're never told directly that they apply to witchfires that have a shooting profile(it specifies weapons, not psychic powers). If you're going to make the argument that it IS printed in the rules, have the decency to cite a book and page. Otherwise your claim holds no substance. I can't cite a page for what's NOT there, or I would.

 dan2026 wrote:
You would have to be a bit of a dick to complain about the Patriarch using Psychic Shriek in a game.

So should I force you to have your Flying Monstrous Creature roll for Dangerous Terrain as it Swoops around my Obelisk? Or would it be a dick move to point out that it has Move Through Cover and automatically passes Dangerous Terrain Tests?

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Pretty sure you're incorrect, and that it's not in the rules that you have to roll to hit with witchfires.

From 'Witchfires' (Main Rulebook, pg 27):

Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described on page 158, or is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

 M0ff3l wrote:
You HAVE to roll to hit for witchfires, thats stated in the rules (contrary to what you believe).

Not if it has a Template or Blast Type associated with it, at least, no more than any other Shooting Weapon.

The DEFAULT is rolling To-Hit with Witchfires just like it is for a Shooting Weapon, but some types bypass that. Now, in those two mentioned cases, they tell you what to do in place of rolling To-Hit, and Psychic Shriek does not and bypasses "hitting" all together. It gives no profile and presents the situation as if you had already hit just by casting the spell. And that is where the confusion really comes in (except with BS 0, those guys cannot even shoot a Flamer).

Having no profile means no one can know for sure what rules to follow with rolling to hit, ergo the power RAW is impossible to resolve.

 Charistoph wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
You would have to be a bit of a dick to complain about the Patriarch using Psychic Shriek in a game.

So should I force you to have your Flying Monstrous Creature roll for Dangerous Terrain as it Swoops around my Obelisk? Or would it be a dick move to point out that it has Move Through Cover and automatically passes Dangerous Terrain Tests?

Considering that the Obelisk rules specifically state the FMCs have to make the check despite normally ignoring Dangerous Terrain? Yes. Yes, you should be forcing FMCs to make the check.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
You would have to be a bit of a dick to complain about the Patriarch using Psychic Shriek in a game.

So should I force you to have your Flying Monstrous Creature roll for Dangerous Terrain as it Swoops around my Obelisk? Or would it be a dick move to point out that it has Move Through Cover and automatically passes Dangerous Terrain Tests?

Considering that the Obelisk rules specifically state the FMCs have to make the check despite normally ignoring Dangerous Terrain? Yes. Yes, you should be forcing FMCs to make the check.

There is a difference between ignoring and automatically passing. The Obelisk bypasses one, it does not bypass the other.

For those who want to make any kinf of shooting attack with a BS0 model

rulebook wrote:Zero-level Characteristics
Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability
whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’).
A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot
strike any blows. A model with no Attacks cannot strike any blows in close combat. A warrior with an
Armour Save of ‘–’ has no armour save at all. If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or
Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

 oldzoggy wrote:
For those who want to make any kinf of shooting attack with a BS0 model

rulebook wrote:Zero-level Characteristics
Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability
whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’).
A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot
strike any blows. A model with no Attacks cannot strike any blows in close combat. A warrior with an
Armour Save of ‘–’ has no armour save at all. If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or
Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

I dont think ANYONE here states otherwise. We have all moved on to HYWPI... RAW there is tons of things preventing a BS0 model from resolving psychic shriek. But RAI is open for discussion.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now that is not proper, as that unit is already defined as a Psyker unit at the beginning of the Psychic Phase section.

.

Not really... his point is just as valid..

 Ghaz wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Pretty sure you're incorrect, and that it's not in the rules that you have to roll to hit with witchfires.

From 'Witchfires' (Main Rulebook, pg 27):

Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described on page 158, or is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Thank you sir. I stand corrected. You are a gentleman amongst gentlemen.

I do recall reading that before, now. So yeah, psychic shriek would have to roll to hit RAW. However, it's obvious that they intended the patriarch to be able to fire it. If they WERE to make a FAQ/Errata, it would probably be to change the patriarch's BS to 5 or something. Wouldn't make much difference except to allow him to use his powers.

RAI is dead simple.

No really it is. GW FAQed exactly this situation in their old FAQ as : No the broodlord has BS0 and cant use any witchfire at all.

GW designers knew this and still created a new BS0 model with psy powers.

We can't have any clearer example of RAI.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Pretty sure you're incorrect, and that it's not in the rules that you have to roll to hit with witchfires.

From 'Witchfires' (Main Rulebook, pg 27):

Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described on page 158, or is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Thank you sir. I stand corrected. You are a gentleman amongst gentlemen.

I do recall reading that before, now. So yeah, psychic shriek would have to roll to hit RAW. However, it's obvious that they intended the patriarch to be able to fire it. If they WERE to make a FAQ/Errata, it would probably be to change the patriarch's BS to 5 or something. Wouldn't make much difference except to allow him to use his powers.

It would probably change Psychic Shriek to a malediction... That would solve two problems at once.