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[Edit found the old FAQ]

Old FAQ wrote:
Q: Can a Tyranid Broodlord (which has BS 0) use a witchfire psychic power that doesn’t require a roll To Hit? If not, is he able to re-roll the psychic power because he cannot use it? (p40) A: No to both questions.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The old faq is no longer online but the evidence is still there. Take this blurb for example.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/tyranids/241586-guide-tyranids-6th-edition.html wrote:
You can also add a broodlord (upgrading a genestealer), which is essentially a 3 wound, ws7, S5 /T5 monester. This fella also comes with psychic abilities, allowing it to get a roll in on the biomancy table. Yes, that's right, psykers in our Troops slots! However in a recent FAQ, GW decided to not allow the Broodlord to use psychic shooting attacks, due to it having a BS of 0. We can't even use the ones that don't require us to roll to hit. So I find it useful to stick to the standard powers, if I even take him at all. However giving the Broodlord Hypnotic gaze makes a very nice challenger for enemy characters hiding in squads.

Yes, no one is argueing about psykers with BS0 not being able to shoot witchfires, that stopped being the point after the first page.

However your description of the RAI is just the RAW... thats not what RAI is.

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160307/5smlr6do.jpg In these emails the white dwarf staff member agrees that it would not make sense and that he will pass it on. Now knowing GW nothing will come from this, but I feel like if they agree that it's stupid, and the fluff mentions him using psychic shriek, then maybe RAI psychic shriek (which no psyker can resolve anyways RAW) should be a malediction?

Rules as intended: Rules as GW intended them to be used.



Lets approach this logicically.

They wrote that FAQ, clearly stating that it didn't work In exactly the same situation.
They made a new version of the model with the same stats and the same kind of powers.
------------------

The only conclusions can be:
- GW did not want this to work
- GW has changed their opinion on how this should work and is incompetent.

The first conclusion is the simpler one thus occams razor urges us to use that one.

If they wanted it to work they would have given the model a BS of 1 not a BS of 0.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Rules as intended: Rules as GW intended them to be used.



Lets approach this logicically.

They wrote that FAQ, clearly stating that it didn't work In exactly the same situation.
They made a new version of the model with the same stats and the same kind of powers.
------------------

The only conclusions can be:
- GW did not want this to work
- GW has changed their opinion on how this should work and is incompetent.

If they wanted it to work they would have given the model a BS of 1 not a BS of 0.

So lets say the model had BS1, how would it use psychic shriek then? Roll to hit? How many rolls to hit? Blast weapon? No roll to hit? RAW the BS0 doesn't even matter because he wouldn't be able to resolve the power anyways.

Thats why the whole power should just bechanged to a malediction that can't be used when locked in combat or something. It would fix more issues than it would create.

Bs1 -> can use any ranged weappons including auto hitting ranged weaopns such as flamers and other things

BS0 -> Can't use any ranged weapons of any sort. Not even auto hitting ones.

So BS1 would fix it. The whole issue of needing to hit or not is an other discussion.

 oldzoggy wrote:
[Edit found the old FAQ]

Old FAQ wrote:
Q: Can a Tyranid Broodlord (which has BS 0) use a witchfire psychic power that doesn’t require a roll To Hit? If not, is he able to re-roll the psychic power because he cannot use it? (p40) A: No to both questions.

That's interesting. Which old FAQ is this?

From 'Maledictions' (Main Rulebook, pg. 27):

Maledictions target one or more enemy units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker's next Psychic phase.

So if they made Psychic Shriek a Malediction, would the target unit get their Wounds back at the start of the Psyker's netx Psychic phase?

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Maledictions' (Main Rulebook, pg. 27):

Maledictions target one or more enemy units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker's next Psychic phase.

So if they made Psychic Shriek a Malediction, would the target unit get their Wounds back at the start of the Psyker's netx Psychic phase?

Do units being targeted by Hallucination and getting the You! You're a Traitor! result regain their wounds?

Is there anything that says that they don't? Looks like Maledictions have their own problems when it comes to deciding which effects are permanent and which effects are only in play for the duration of the power.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
[Edit found the old FAQ]

Old FAQ wrote:
Q: Can a Tyranid Broodlord (which has BS 0) use a witchfire psychic power that doesn’t require a roll To Hit? If not, is he able to re-roll the psychic power because he cannot use it? (p40) A: No to both questions.

That's interesting. Which old FAQ is this?

It was added mid 6th edition in the tyranids faq and it was removed with the new codex since broodlords no longer have the ability to cast witchfires.
Before this FAQ no one really argued about this and just casted auto hit powers with Ork and Tyranid psykers.
It isn't a faq for the 7th edition codex but it sure gives us some context in this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a link to the FAQ.
http://documents.mx/documents/tyranid-6th-ed-faq.html

Notice that they start the FAQ with, mistakes are corrected in errata's in this document and the model did have access to telepathy. So they could just have fixed the broodlord right there if they wanted it to work.

 Ghaz wrote:
Is there anything that says that they don't? Looks like Maledictions have their own problems when it comes to deciding which effects are permanent and which effects are only in play for the duration of the power.

Does the wounds section have anything on not regaining wounds unless something specifically states it? (don't have my rulebook on hand atm)

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now that is not proper, as that unit is already defined as a Psyker unit at the beginning of the Psychic Phase section.

Not really... his point is just as valid..

How so? A unit with a Psyker model in it is referred to as a Psyker or Psyker unit and is clearly established. It is also clearly established that BS 0 models cannot shoot, whether Weapon or Witchfire. The two statements do not correlate as being congruant.

After all, it is not like Shriek is not the only Power in the Discipline, any more than the possibility that the same model will be in range of a gun emplacement to use it.

Same concepts apply. I would let a person regenerate that power to something else if they wanted to, but if this came up in the middle of the game, it would only be a one off.

 Charistoph wrote:
If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything
..

After all, it is not like Shriek is not the only Power in the Discipline, any more than the possibility that the same model will be in range of a gun emplacement to use it. Same concepts apply. I would let a person regenerate that power to something else if they wanted to, but if this came up in the middle of the game, it would only be a one off.

Not relevant at all this is an other discussion, if you want to argue about psy unit open a new thread.

 Charistoph wrote:
How so? A unit with a Psyker model in it is referred to as a Psyker or Psyker unit and is clearly established.

Where is that stated? The closest I can find is. [ For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.]

This is really an other discussion, pls don't give him the ammo to hijack this thread.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
I am quite certain my message was clear enough for everyone to understand that it is how I would (and do) play it. Doh??

No, it sounded like you were being petulant about not being able to play how you think the rules should operate, just like you are sounding a little petulant with the ending of that quote.

That is just your own inability to read context and get argumentative. We've seen it often enough.

As was said, no one says it is RAW, to top it all, psychic shriek et others don't even follow the rules laid out in the rulebook. Shall we also open that discussion?

lol, there is no RAI here. You guys are kidding yourselves. It's plain and simple, no BS, no Psychic Shriek.

There are plenty of models that can go to BS0 and not be able to fire WFs.

 Whacked wrote:
lol, there is no RAI here. You guys are kidding yourselves. It's plain and simple, no BS, no Psychic Shriek.

There are plenty of models that can go to BS0 and not be able to fire WFs.

Except for the fact that he can use the power in the board game.
Seems intended to me.

 dan2026 wrote:

 Whacked wrote:
lol, there is no RAI here. You guys are kidding yourselves. It's plain and simple, no BS, no Psychic Shriek.

There are plenty of models that can go to BS0 and not be able to fire WFs.

Except for the fact that he can use the power in the board game.
Seems intended to me.

Well he can use it, it just won't do anything because it will miss

More seriously, it was intended to use the Telpathy table, not just psychic shriek. That mean the rule gives it 6 powers to use that do work. The fact that a 7th power doesn't work doesn't mean anything for RAI.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

 Whacked wrote:
lol, there is no RAI here. You guys are kidding yourselves. It's plain and simple, no BS, no Psychic Shriek.

There are plenty of models that can go to BS0 and not be able to fire WFs.

Except for the fact that he can use the power in the board game.
Seems intended to me.

Well he can use it, it just won't do anything because it will miss

More seriously, it was intended to use the Telpathy table, not just psychic shriek. That mean the rule gives it 6 powers to use that do work. The fact that a 7th power doesn't work doesn't mean anything for RAI.

Their citing the fact that, in the board game atleast, he has specific rules for the use of psychic shriek, making it seem as though he should be able to use it.

There are no rules indicating that any model should be able to use any psychic power it generates.

There are rules stating models with BS 0 cannot make any shooting attacks, PS is a witchfire making it a shooting attacks.

Regardless of rolling to hit or not the patriarch is not allowed to make shooting attacks, including witchfires, including psychic shriek. Those are the rules of the game, that some people do not like it because they want to be able to do something they are actually told by the rules they are not allowed to do is a different matter

Furthermore...broodlords have always been able to roll warp blast as a power despite not being able to use it, so other than claiming because you can roll a power means you can use it being false, it is also historically inaccurate within the actual rules.

The board game has him using psychic shriek, the included lore has him using psychic shriek in the short stories, the only thing we don't have yet is the 40k version play through (because there isn't one) showing him using it but we know he automatically has the power regardless per 40k rules.

Seems pretty daft to claim it's not intended to be used when in every example gw provided he does actually use psychic shriek.

Fluff does not equal rules. Fluff has dark eldar reaver riders repositioning missiles fired at them to shoot the firing models. So not a good thing to go by.

But it is for RAI, which is what we have been trying to talk about.

blaktoof wrote:
Fluff does not equal rules. Fluff has dark eldar reaver riders repositioning missiles fired at them to shoot the firing models. So not a good thing to go by.

No fluff is not rules but given the fluff provides intent for his rules, and given the board game that his 40k rules are based on has him using psychic shriek, and given the fact he is automatically given that psychic power per 40k rules.

It's extremely daft to think its not intended to use psychic shriek.

The rules are very clear that it cannot make any shooting attacks, unless there is a faq or errata changing psychic shriek to a malediction there is no intended rules stance for it to bypass the basic rules of the game in 40k. What it does in deathwatch board game is a different game.

It is extremely daft to assume a model that is not allowed to do something by the basic rules of the game can without being given permission to do so. Maybe the people who made the rules intended for it to have two random powers in 40k and no shriek.

After all that's what the basic rules interaction here results in.

GW doesnt care just buy the boxset!

 oldzoggy wrote:
This is really an other discussion, pls don't give him the ammo to hijack this thread.

Truthfully, the thread is dead. RAW is clear that the Patriarch cannot use PS. Now we are all arguing about intent. GW designed the game to be pretty models on a board and if there was a rules dispute to just randomly let fate decide who was right. "Intent", therefore is very hard to determine, as you have seen with all the arguing. There is argument over the very definitions of words within rules in a game designed around a 4+.

The only real answer here is to see if your TO will allow it, or your opponent.

So it says witchfire, it says shooting requires rolls to hit. It says he has bs 0, but instead of the obvious it is a long drawn out, "Raw, Rai, Gw writes bad rulez". Not this time, its clear he cant use it... Just happens that way. Just like a herald of tzeentch or Faty rolling on divination. They cant use 2 of the spells in that tree, perfect timing or fire overwatch on full BS... Is this another big mystery of GW writing it wrong? No, just the way it is. Play it as it reads.

Naw wrote:That is just your own inability to read context and get argumentative. We've seen it often enough.

And the rudeness and petulance continues... Talk about reading out of context and getting argumentative...

Naw wrote:As was said, no one says it is RAW, to top it all, psychic shriek et others don't even follow the rules laid out in the rulebook. Shall we also open that discussion?

That was not in what was in the post, though:

Naw wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

Naw wrote:
Or, as it is with the psychic rules in general, the rules as written do not work.

I accept the 3d6 as the to-hit roll.

That doesn't matter you can't make any shooting attacks with bs 0 even the ones that don't require a to hit roll such as flamers

If you pulled that card I'd point that your psyker in a unit of non-psykers couldn't do anything

Now, it could be that I misinterpreted the smiley at the end, but just looking at this, the rest just feels like a "so there!" is all that is missing from the end.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
How so? A unit with a Psyker model in it is referred to as a Psyker or Psyker unit and is clearly established.

Where is that stated? The closest I can find is. [ For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.]

It appears I misremembered the introduction, apologies.

Do keep in mind that the Psyker rule does specifically mention it being on the model, though, and technically more Advanced and higher precedence than the Phase rules. So in the end, still works in a very roundabout way (like many 40K rules).

oldzoggy wrote:This is really an other discussion, pls don't give him the ammo to hijack this thread.

And this helps anyone how?